Kitchen Refit - Oven & Fridge Positions

[SteveTheElder]

Would appreciate some thoughts on this one.

 

We're about to embark on a kitchen refit and getting to the design/layout phase and a couple of the things we'd like to do is put the oven at worktop height (in 10 yrs time will we want to be lifting roasting tins from knee height?), and go down the integrated fit for most or all appliances.

 

The 'old school' bit of me says you don't put a fridge next to the oven but every showroom we've visited has the integrated oven and fridge adjacent, and they all say it's not an issue anymore. So, are they right, or talking a load of rubbish in order to sell a visually pleasing kitchen?

 

I get it that there is the unit side panels and an air gap internal to each one, and individual appliances will be better insulated that when I bought my first appliances back in the early 1980s - but it doesn't feel right somehow.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

[Gmac983]

Don’t let them dazzle you with fashionable designs and layouts. Stick to your guns and have what works best for you. In theory a raised or “tower” oven is a great idea, in practice you have to be very careful what height it ends up at, as some kitchen designs can see them mounted rather high up. If for example it is a dual compartment oven (smaller grill/oven over a larger combi oven), will some who is perhaps diminutive in stature be able to reach over the open door without burn their arms on the hot door. My in-laws have this type of layout and my 5’1” wife basically needs to use a step to see in the upper oven cavity. Regarding the fridge next to the oven, I wouldn’t be keen on that either but perhaps it’s ok, I’m assuming it will be an intergrated fridge/freezer which should “breath” through a ventilator in the plinth at floor level.

Regards G

Edited 1 August, 2022 by Gmac983

[SteveTheElder]

4 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Don’t let them dazzle you with fashionable designs and layouts. Stick to your guns and have what works best for you. In theory a raised or “tower” oven is a great idea, in practice you have to be very careful what height it ends up at, as some kitchen designs can see them mounted rather high up. If for example it is a dual compartment oven (smaller grill/oven over a larger combi oven), will some who is perhaps diminutive in stature be able to reach over the open door without burn their arms on the hot door. My in-laws have this type of layout and my 5’1” wife basically needs to use a step to see in the upper oven cavity. Regarding the fridge next to the oven, I wouldn’t be keen on that either but perhaps it’s ok, I’m assuming it will be an intergrated fridge/freezer which should “breath” through a ventilator in the plinth at floor level.

Regards G

 

Thanks. Yes, we're thinking integrated fridge so ought to vent as you describe.

 

The height of the oven is a fair point, but one of the main drivers for raising it up is that we are both fairly tall (my wife 5'8" and me 6'5") - essentially we have the opposite problem to that which you mention. My aching back will tell you that the world of kitchens is not built for folk of my height. But you're right, not everyone is our height.

 

So far we're thinking that visually putting the two adjacent looks so much better than having two tower style cupboards in a fairly small kitchen. Guess we have to compromise somewhere...

[Gmac983]

37 minutes ago, sneal said:

(my wife 5'8" and me 6'5") -

I see your point, vertically challenge you are not!

If the kitchen layout is compact then tower units do rob you of worktop space especially when space will obviously be required for a hob aswell. Would an under-counter fridge be an option for you and place the freezer separately elsewhere like in a utility room or garage for example. Perhaps not, as it’s nice to have a fridge at eye level… Unfortunately as you are obviously finding out, designing a compact kitchen is a road of compromises.

[KenONeill]

4 hours ago, sneal said:

you don't put a fridge next to the oven

Well, the cabinet doors next to the built-in 1U oven do get a bit warm, so I'd agree that point.

[john999boy]

I have my fridge/freezer next to one of the ovens and there's no problem.

 

One thing I would ask you to ponder (if you haven't already) is having a steam (or dual) oven though.

They inevitably cost more than normal ovens but food can taste so much better when steamed.

Joints are sublime.

[SteveTheElder]

4 hours ago, john999boy said:

I have my fridge/freezer next to one of the ovens and there's no problem.

 

One thing I would ask you to ponder (if you haven't already) is having a steam (or dual) oven though.

They inevitably cost more than normal ovens but food can taste so much better when steamed.

Joints are sublime.

Thanks.

 

I’m certainly thinking about a steam/dual oven - son is a chef and he bangs on about their merits!

 

[Baxlin]

We are 5’6” and 5’8”, and having a tower double oven is so convenient.  We used Howden units, and their standard tower height is perfect.

 

One point, we did look at a Neff oven, with the doors that slide away under the cavity - which in theory would remove the risk of a short person burning themselves on the door, as warned in a previous post.  However, we rejected this, for two reasons, firstly it meant you had nowhere to ‘rest’ what you are taking out of the oven while you get a proper hold on it to move it to a work surface - or to check its progress  (hard to describe what I mean, but sometimes you just need to have that extra surface).  Secondly, the traditional ‘drop down doors’ oven we chose (Bosch) had appreciably larger oven cavities.
 

Regarding the proximity of oven and fridge/freezer, we do have our microwave oven above the upright freezer, which works fine, but not as critical as a ‘hot’ oven.  I think I would ask a kitchen fitter for advice, rather than the salesman, or even phone the manufacturer’s help desk.

 

An unrelated thought, we chose deep drawers for crockery etc, where possible, rather than cupboards:  they are in our opinion so much more convenient.

[KenONeill]

7 hours ago, sneal said:

I’m certainly thinking about a steam/dual oven - son is a chef and he bangs on about their merits!

 

Commercial ovens (whatever type) tend to be much "fiercer" than domestic ones, so don't expect commercial results.

[john999boy]

2 hours ago, Baxlin said:

An unrelated thought, we chose deep drawers for crockery etc, where possible, rather than cupboards:  they are in our opinion so much more convenient.

You've just reminded me about something they I initially didn't realise or appreciate.

 

Lots of the English kitchen manufacturers make their cupboards slightly slimmer than the German manufacturers. That means a dinner plate isn't able to lay flat. Some may not think that's a big thing but as you'll spending a considerable sum on a home upgrade, why not ensure it does as much as possible to make your life easier.

[Gaz]

14 hours ago, john999boy said:

I have my fridge/freezer next to one of the ovens and there's no problem.

 

Same here.  Not been an issue at all.

 

Gaz

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, john999boy said:

You've just reminded me about something they I initially didn't realise or appreciate.

 

Lots of the English kitchen manufacturers make their cupboards slightly slimmer than the German manufacturers. That means a dinner plate isn't able to lay flat. Some may not think that's a big thing but as you'll spending a considerable sum on a home upgrade, why not ensure it does as much as possible to make your life easier.

Kitchen units are made in standard widths, in the UK they are 30cm, 40cm, 50cm and 60 cm plus 80, 90 and even 1m for the casserolier drawer units (don't know the name in English) this gives great flexibility when planning and the ability to fill a given width with the minimum of infill panels.

 

Here in France it is 40cm or 60cm (casseroliers aside) and thats it, perhaps Germany also does not have the smaller 30cm width, in any case you must have large dinner plates if they wont fit in a 30cm unit with inside width of 26.4mm, my plates are 24.8cm diameter.

[john999boy]

38 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Kitchen units are made in standard widths, in the UK they are 30cm, 40cm, 50cm and 60 cm plus 80, 90 and even 1m for the casserolier drawer units (don't know the name in English) this gives great flexibility when planning and the ability to fill a given width with the minimum of infill panels.

 

Here in France it is 40cm or 60cm (casseroliers aside) and thats it, perhaps Germany also does not have the smaller 30cm width, in any case you must have large dinner plates if they wont fit in a 30cm unit with inside width of 26.4mm, my plates are 24.8cm diameter.

It wasn't the width that was the problem - it was the depth.

I've just measured my wall units and they have a usable (inside) 30cm depth - ideal for 27cm plates. 👍

 

Looking at the Howdens site which @Baxlin mentioned earlier and their wall units are only 29cm overall so wouldn't be able to accommodate my plates.

[@Lee]

I just checked our kitchen wall units out of interest (in Germany for those unaware) and it's 31cm deep inside. (or 12.2" if you prefer) 

[SteveTheElder]

Depth of the wall cupboards is something we have thought about. Our dinner plates are too large for the current wall cupboards, and have even bigger pizza plates that don’t fit in the dishwasher (we like big pizzas!).

 

Putting crockery in a draw has a big appeal. 
 

A design session with a potential supplier (Wren) this morning was very helpful. Given the relatively small kitchen we’re moving away from a tower for the oven - just too many tall units looks wrong. We’d retain the tall integrated fridge though. Compromise compromise compromise….

 

Settled on moving the washing machine out too, creates more storage space where we want it. I’ve always thought it odd that in the UK we often have washing machines in kitchens. They’d be better off in a bathroom or preferably a utility room - which is effectively what we’d be creating in the corner of what was the garage.

 

Time for a cold beer then think about a session with Howdens or someone…

[J.R.]

12 hours ago, john999boy said:

It wasn't the width that was the problem - it was the depth.

 

You threw me by speaking of them being slim(mer), I have only ever heard that term used to describe width of an item, i.e. a measure at 90° to the visual axis.

 

A good lesson for me though, I had wrongly assumed that a 30cm wall unit would be deeper than its width, I know base units can lose a lot of depth for the service void.

 

I am currently (amongst other jobs) fitting a kitchen to a sous-sol, a ground floor or semi-underground garage/utility area the whole footprint of the house with the living area upstairs, they they have a lower ceiling height of around 2.1m as opposed to the standard 2.5m and mine has lost some height due to the insulation, this means that stndard wall units even if pushed up against the ceiling are too low and interfere with headspace and cast shadow over the worktop.

 

I have to use the shorter over extractor units or in this case as I have some 40cm base doors fabricate my own upper units to accept them turned 90° and hinged from the top.

 

My signature kitchen hack is to use laminate flooring as the spashback, there are some quite random scabby chick effect ones with lots of weather worn pastel colours which go with every colour scheme of worktops, doors etc, hard to describe, I also use them as bed headboards or for relooking of old furniture.

 

For kitchen splashbacks I just stick them up with gun grade adhesive foam.

 

Its incredibly hard wearing and shrugs off spills as I have done a couple of dining tables with it.

 

 

[@Lee]

13 hours ago, john999boy said:

It wasn't the width that was the problem - it was the depth.

👍

I originally missed the fnarr fnarr in this until you were quoted by J.R.

(still can't remove emojis from quotes on mobil)

 

 

 

[Baxlin]

16 hours ago, sneal said:

Thought it odd that in the UK we often have washing machines in kitchens. They’d be better off in a bathroom or preferably a utility room - which is effectively what we’d be creating in the corner of what was the garage.

 

 

No!  Can’t compromise my garage!  It’s hallowed ground!  Where else could I keep all my ‘toys’?  👹👹

[Baxlin]

19 hours ago, john999boy said:

It wasn't the width that was the problem - it was the depth.

I've just measured my wall units and they have a usable (inside) 30cm depth - ideal for 27cm plates. 👍

 

Looking at the Howdens site which @Baxlin mentioned earlier and their wall units are only 29cm overall so wouldn't be able to accommodate my plates.

We took the 295mm internal depth, which yes, was less than in our previous kitchen, into consideration when we planned our current one.  However, we had decided to use the deep drawers for crockery, as we had seen this worked so well in friends’ kitchens, so it wasn’t an issue.  Tbh, we find it’s easier to lift several dinner plates up from a drawer than out from an eye level cupboard, which we had done previously.

Edited 3 August, 2022 by Baxlin

[PetrolDave]

22 hours ago, john999boy said:

It wasn't the width that was the problem - it was the depth.

I've just measured my wall units and they have a usable (inside) 30cm depth - ideal for 27cm plates. 👍

The kitchen in my new house comes from Symphony, their standard wall unit depth is 285mm but in the small print it says you can spec them at 330mm - fortunately mine are 330mm.

[john999boy]

3 hours ago, Baxlin said:

Tbh, we find it’s easier to lift several dinner plates up from a drawer than out from an eye level cupboard, which we had done previously.

I realise that it was me who brought up the ‘dinner plate dilemma’ but swmbo (later decided) that we also do the same as you and have crockery in a large drawer under one of the ovens. A second benefit is that a not inconsiderable weight is now floor supported instead of wall supported. At least we have the option to change things around lol. 
 

Anyway, OT from the original post but another kitchen decision we made was to move from a gas hob to an induction one - is that something @snealhas considered? Apart from the clean lines, one unexpected benefit (not realised before purchasing) was that each of the multiple heating zones could have an individual timer set. Maybe it was a ‘lucky’ choice but that really is a boon.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

On the original point, we have our fridge freezer near to an integrated oven, but seperated by a pantry style cupboard for tins etc.

Works well as it provides 300mm of spacing and 2 chipboard seperations.

 

Induction, it's nice but it depends on what you cook.

If you want induction don't forget you will need a dedicated circuit as most will pull more than 13A when on full.

 

I think when I next look at a kitchen it will probably be 4 induction rings and a single gas one, but that's only due to the requirement for an open flame for a certain type of cooking.

 

Plate wise, we use a cupboard, but it's a floor cupboard under an island. The weight is certainly substantial and if I was in a modern house I wouldn't want that hanging of a wall made out of thermal block and plasterboard.

[SteveTheElder]

5 hours ago, john999boy said:

Anyway, OT from the original post but another kitchen decision we made was to move from a gas hob to an induction one - is that something @snealhas considered? Apart from the clean lines, one unexpected benefit (not realised before purchasing) was that each of the multiple heating zones could have an individual timer set. Maybe it was a ‘lucky’ choice but that really is a boon.

 

Thanks for mentioning this and yes, we’ve decided to go for an induction hob. Not changing from gas though, rather a ceramic electric which has the clean lines but not the control ability of gas or induction. Lots of features on the high end models, could pay anything from £299 to £2299! It won’t be that latter thats for sure! We bought a low cost/basic single ring induction plate from Ikea (£39 at the time) to get a feel of the technology; really quite impressed.

 

One feature i like sound of is a built in sensor to detect when a pan is boiling, and reduce the heat accordingly. Would be nice for safety and energy saving if it works.

[SteveTheElder]

30 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

On the original point, we have our fridge freezer near to an integrated oven, but seperated by a pantry style cupboard for tins etc.

Works well as it provides 300mm of spacing and 2 chipboard seperations.

 

I like that idea, esp. if its a pull out style unit. Alas our kitchen is a bit too small unless we rip out the heating unit too - and thats another whole debate in itself! 

Fortunately, the heating unit is just over 300mm wide floor to ceiling - so when it does come out we can slot in such a larder unit.

[john999boy]

24 minutes ago, sneal said:

Thanks for mentioning this and yes, we’ve decided to go for an induction hob. Not changing from gas though, rather a ceramic electric which has the clean lines but not the control ability of gas or induction.

At least with a ceramic hob you won't need new pans.

Edited 3 August, 2022 by john999boy
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