Question about clutch and gearbox on 1.6

[Orchid70]

Hi
We used to own a 1.6 Felicia Combi from 1996. The clutch gave up on it around 190 000 km. And was changed. I do not know if its been changed before.
We sold the car and the clutch gave up again at around 250 000 km! Something around there. 
What are your experiences on the clutch changing periods? 
Now, I have a possible new customer, we havent been to see the car yet. She has a 1.6 Felicia combi MY 2001. It has 120 000 on the clock. 

She cannot get into gears. She talked about hard to get into some gears from the start and lastly, cannot get into gear at all. 
Are there different, "stronger" clutches out there? 
What about the gear linkage? On our MY96 it was hell to try to get it firm enough. I remember buying the linkage piece from Poland. But the material was too soft and the screw gridned the hole oval on the outer linkage piece. So we welded them together in the end.
And lastly - how are the gearboxes on the 1.6 liters? If I remember correct, I have seen problems for the 1.3 gearbox???

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 hour ago, Orchid70 said:

What are your experiences on the clutch changing periods

 

Depends from the use, city traffic-sport driving means many changes, national highways few changes more easy kilometres.

Some say about 120.000 km, the easiest way is the "check with 2nd gear".

 

1 hour ago, Orchid70 said:

Are there different, "stronger" clutches out there? 

 

Different brands, different prices, Vika has much lower price than Sachs.

There are "racing" clutches but are not comfortable for every-day driving use.

I remember back in 90's with Sport motorcycles, some had those clutches but the drivers weren't happy for city use, stiff and noisy.

[Paws4Thot]

@Orchid70 There is an English saying "How long is a piece of string? Twice as long as from the middle to one end!" This also applies to clutch life, complicated by driving style. There was one old lady (accurate description) in the town where I live who drove everywhere at about 4_000 rpm and got about 2_000 miles from a clutch. Compare this with the last car I was more or less sole user of, which had reached 120_000 miles on the original clutch.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Here in Greece for a clutch in Felicia the mechanics ask from 90-120 euros (that's 77-103 £) for fitting only.

 

[R_U_AFA]

3 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

the easiest way is the "check with 2nd gear".

Can you elaborate on what this entails

[Warrior193]

10 minutes ago, R_U_AFA said:

Can you elaborate on what this entails

Assuming poster meant as a test - Slow down to as low a speed as possible in gear, then drop the hammer and look for increased revs without matching increase in speed - works better uphill.

Edited 12 December, 2023 by Warrior193
correction

[RicardoM]

4 hours ago, Orchid70 said:

Hi
We used to own a 1.6 Felicia Combi from 1996. The clutch gave up on it around 190 000 km. And was changed. I do not know if its been changed before.
We sold the car and the clutch gave up again at around 250 000 km! Something around there. 
What are your experiences on the clutch changing periods? 
Now, I have a possible new customer, we havent been to see the car yet. She has a 1.6 Felicia combi MY 2001. It has 120 000 on the clock. 

She cannot get into gears. She talked about hard to get into some gears from the start and lastly, cannot get into gear at all. 
Are there different, "stronger" clutches out there? 
What about the gear linkage? On our MY96 it was hell to try to get it firm enough. I remember buying the linkage piece from Poland. But the material was too soft and the screw gridned the hole oval on the outer linkage piece. So we welded them together in the end.
And lastly - how are the gearboxes on the 1.6 liters? If I remember correct, I have seen problems for the 1.3 gearbox???

There is no way the original clutch lasted 190K km. More like 90K-100K km.

60K km for an aftermarket, not OEM clutch is about right. But it depends on many factors. Load, driving style, terrain, environment, etc.

About the customer's problem: I suspect the gear linkage. It is very common to get sloppy. Not addressing it quick usually results in gearbox issues (synchros, gears). So I would not condemn immediately the clutch. Maybe the clutch cable is not well adjusted.

As for the reliability of 1.6 gearboxes, they differ only in gear ratios. Not well known issues if maintained properly (oil) and driven properly.

 

PS: when you say "customer" should we understand that you own a repair shop?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

22 minutes ago, R_U_AFA said:

Can you elaborate on what this entails

 

Common tricks here (text translated):

 

Quote

Start with "3rd" (alhtough some guys do this with 2nd gear
It may have happened to you by accident, but this time you will do it on purpose, so you better be in an "open" area, without traffic.

Being stopped, put into 3rd gear, rev up the engine a bit by pressing the accelerator and slowly release the clutch.  The car, albeit very slowly, should start moving.  If you hear a noise, if it smells burnt or if the revs start to rise but the car does not move, then the clutch needs to be replaced.

 

 Abrupt “downhill”
 While driving in 3rd gear, "downshift" to 2nd and let off the clutch abruptly.  If the engine revs don't rev up and stay sluggish in their low range, then that's a good sign to go to the garage and get the clutch changed!

 

Quote

While stopped, put the transmission in 4th gear, lift the parking brake and try to start the vehicle.  If it goes out, your clutch still works good.  If it doesn't go off and shows that it's ready to start, then you need a clutch change.

 

[Orchid70]

I should have said that the owner at the time we changed the clutch was a good driver. Lives on the countryside and retired. I remember when she reversed out from our yard the first time, with our car and we talked about that. She can drive.
Both my hubby and I are mechanics who can drive 😃 Both with or without clutch.
We also live outside of the city and work from home, yes, small repair shop. Hubby is 74 years old and I am 53, so we work with the cars we want and when we feel for it 😃 
The guy that bought the car from us - is old truck driver - he can absolutely also drive and NEVER drives like me and hubby drive - as we were hunted by cops..... Sometimes I drive without using clutch at all - just for the fun of it. 
So deffinetly - none of the drivers fult in this case. 

And yes - we can also check the clutch - usually in the third gear. If the clutch is gone and the owner wants to fix it - we will drive the car home - or hubby does. Hes the one that usually does, when we pick up those cars. 

Good to know about the life of the clutch. In that case - I will deffinetly recommend better quality clutch - also when the car owner does not have the money for it really. Meny of our customers have to have a car - but really dont have the money to own one and take care of them.

Thank you also for all the aanswers! 
I truelly appreciate it!

[Thefeliciahacker]

10 hours ago, RicardoM said:

More like 90K-100K

Still on original clutch with 150k km on the clock 

[Thefeliciahacker]

16 hours ago, Orchid70 said:

Are there different, "stronger" clutches out there

Yes there are https://www.dcperformance.co.uk/cheap/2024669/skoda/black-diamond-stage-2-kevlar-clutch-kits/bdc9805kvr.html

[RicardoM]

3 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Still on original clutch with 150k km on the clock 

If the car had only one owner, you, or the car has been repaired only in authorized garages with full service documents, then you are a good driver who took care of his car. Nevertheless, the clutch disc performance degraded over time.

 

3 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Yes there are https://www.dcperformance.co.uk/cheap/2024669/skoda/black-diamond-stage-2-kevlar-clutch-kits/bdc9805kvr.html

A stronger clutch disc on a stock flywheel will chew it faster. Regular clutch disks are created to wear themselves instead of the flywheel. I mean, when two different parts are in contact, one of them got to give faster in the process of operation. So the question is: what do you prefer? A stronger clutch disc and replace the flywheel? Or a regular clutch disc, and you change it periodically?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121630933363

 

https://www.ckcautosport.com/embragues-sport/163158-embrague-black-diamond-bdc9805pwr-ceramico-8434207311485.html

 

Not for our wallet.

[Papez]

16 hours ago, RicardoM said:

There is no way the original clutch lasted 190K km. More like 90K-100K km.

60K km for an aftermarket, not OEM clutch is about right.

 

I changed clutch at 160k, because of failed pressure plate. Cannot say if it was original, but aftermarket Valeo lasted another 160k before the car was scrapped.

 

About the gearing linkage - the issue is usually the joint on the gearbox rod. Depending on model year, is either rubber bushing that erodes or metal inserts with o-rings that wear out. You could buy these parts in the past, but I'm not sure if it's possible today.

Edited 13 December, 2023 by Papez

[D.FYLAKTOS]

33 minutes ago, Papez said:

but I'm not sure if it's possible today.

 

Few years back some Cz stores had them, also Vika sells a kit.

[Thefeliciahacker]

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121630933363

 

https://www.ckcautosport.com/embragues-sport/163158-embrague-black-diamond-bdc9805pwr-ceramico-8434207311485.html

 

Not for our wallet.

these are undrivable

[Thefeliciahacker]

5 hours ago, RicardoM said:

A stronger clutch disc on a stock flywheel will chew it faster.

As far as Im concerned aramid is lower friction than organic so you need a stronger pressure plate but it doesnt cause more wear, inherently its just more resistant

[D.FYLAKTOS]

What are the benefits of Kevlar clutches?

 

Often Kevlar is able to withstand 40-50% more heat than organics. Just like organic Kevlar offers smooth engagement and minimal wear of matting surfaces. This friction material will often last two to three times longer than the organic option. These are a good option for slightly modified vehicles and off road use.

[Orchid70]

So, I have been to see the car - or shall I say, tested it, we had no possibility to lift it, to go under. And when I got in tutch with her, it was already evening and dark. 

Its the gearbox alright. 
She has had problems with different gears, in different periods, during about an year. Sometimes everything has worked normally for weeks, and then different gears have had problems getting in. Some periods she needed to start in second gear for ex.
Now its stuck in reverse. 
She has a towing insurance, and a local gagare in her town, has already promised to take a look, for free. So thats what I recommended her - let them take a look and put a proper dignose on it. She also thinks rear brakes a stuck and it looks like the alternator doesnt charge properly. Small things to fix really. 
She has taken good care of the car those 3 years she has owned it. It can be worth changing the box. 

[RicardoM]

53 minutes ago, Orchid70 said:

It can be worth changing the box. 

Do you think you can find a new one? Or do you think to refurbish it?

[Paws4Thot]

8 hours ago, Orchid70 said:

She also thinks rear brakes a stuck

Last time I came across "stuck on rear brakes" the car had rear drums and I got it mobile again in about a minute, including time to get 3 car lengths behind it cleared of other traffic and staying clear (thank you constable). Put it in reverse, rev to 2_500 drop the clutch and declutch again fast then tap foot brake.

[J.R.]

Rear drum brakes are always one leading and one trailing shoe so reverse gear was not a necessity, for stuck front drum brakes it would definitely be.

Edited 14 December, 2023 by J.R.

[R_Blue]

On 12/12/2023 at 21:39, RicardoM said:

About the customer's problem: I suspect the gear linkage. It is very common to get sloppy. Not addressing it quick usually results in gearbox issues (synchros, gears).

How one can address it please?

[RicardoM]

First look for the straightness of the links. I've seen gear linkages hit by boulders and deformed. Then you have to assess the play in each link. There are repair kits that have new bushings and parts of the gear linkage. Or be creative and build your own new parts.

[R_Blue]

I'm having problems with 3rd gear and R.

Inconsistent.

Sometimes it shifts into 3rd without any problem, sometimes with a brief "grrrk" sound accompanied with some vibration in the lever.

 

I adjust the clutch grip as close as possible to the bottom. Over the time it gets problematic to shift into R without grinding. When that happens I shorten clutch cable length 1-2mm. It solves the shift to R and eases the 3rd. Recently, the time needed for me to shorten the cable length have dropped. I do it more regularly. I think pressure plate is losing its flexibility.

 

Also, in my case, shifting is flawless when the engine and the gearbox is cold. Worst when I stay in the traffic jam in summer.

It shifts better in rain or after water splash from bottom.

 

I have Castrol 80W EP but as I've been told before, on the next gearbox oil change I'll switch to a multi grade one like 75W-90.

 

I'll check the linkage.

Complete new assembly is available.

https://www.ladaciskodaci.com/skoda-sanziman-vites-ve-difransiyel-vites-kolu-hareket-mili-tesbit-levyesi-komple---12_109346559-6u0711023a_ith

 

Also I think this is the repair kit:

https://www.ladaciskodaci.com/skoda-sanziman-vites-ve-difransiyel-vites-hareket-mili-tamir-takimi---12_136736880-6u0711605a_ith

Edited 16 December, 2023 by R_Blue
typo