A Little Whine, Anybody?

[CortinaGT]

I hope you like the pun in the title! :cocktail:

I think my Citigo is great and accept that the sound insulation is limited to save weight.

On the open road I can hear a slight whine from around 55mph upwards in 5th gear. Its not excessive and by adjusting the throttle from drive to overun I can find the lightest loaded point when it virtually disappears.

I believe that it is probably the transmission and is probably quite normal. I spoke to an engineer the other day and he said he noticed a similar thing in his camper van and Honda Civic. It is also mentioned on the Up! forum:

http://www.upownersclub.co.uk/forum/high-pitched-noise_topic719_page2.html

Just wondering if other owners had noticed the sound?

[Ootohere]

I was in a dealership the other week & someone i knew was in complaining about the same thing.

(white 3 door & no idea what engine.)

The Workshop manager took the car out for a drive & came back in and told the owner it was an Induction noise

& normal..

I said bye and left, because the same Chief Tech or whatever he is, had just sprouted a load of guff to me,

& i had no interest in getting into an argument.

(unusual for me.)

george

[CFB]

I have also noticed this noise but to me it sounds like the gearbox?

On light throttle there is a noticeable rumbling no matter which gear is selected, which leads me to the conclusion it is probably an idler gear or the like.

Not really an issue though, I don't think.

[Snuggles]

I'm glad you posted this, as I have noticed this whine over the last couple of days. Just as you describe, I seem to hear it at about 50/60 mph, and it stops if I lift my foot off the accelerator. I've had the car ten days now, and I hadn't noticed it before yesterday.

Having said that, the car does make all kinds of general rumbling noises, and I'm not too concerned having read the experiences of those on the Up forum.

[CortinaGT]

Maybe gearbox, although my best guess is its in the final drive/differential (and it is only a guess). This is right next to our feet.

Induction roar? I doubt it very much too as the pitch is the same on the overrun. Alternator? This is a possibility I suppose with the new regenaritve technology.

Anyway I doubt it is a problem, but I am interested in how many owners have the issue and if any of the higher mileage ones consider it is less after component bedding in. I have covered about 540 miles.

So those of you who have heard the sound in your cars please keep posting.

[MikeW]

Maybe gearbox, although my best guess is its in the final drive/differential (and it is only a guess). This is right next to our feet.

Induction roar? I doubt it very much too as the pitch is the same on the overrun. Alternator? This is a possibility I suppose with the new regenaritve technology.

Anyway I doubt it is a problem, but I am interested in how many owners have the issue and if any of the higher mileage ones consider it is less after component bedding in. I have covered about 540 miles.

So those of you who have heard the sound in your cars please keep posting.

Mine does it too!

My current mileage is 2220, so i think it's just the way the Citigo is, rather than something bedding on.

I also have a whistle at idle as well. Got used to both of these "issues" now, and the MPG is fantastic, and oil consumption appears to be zero so far, and coolant levels are the same - so i don't think either is a problem!

[bahnstormer vrs]

I had a CityGo 60PS on loan for a couple of days recently and felt sure that I heard some transmission whine; not particularly speed related; just generally.

Ah ha, I thought - some proper car noises for a change instead of the usual 'sitting in an insulated box' that seems to be the current vogue.

Oh, and there was also some delightful 3-pot induction roar as well.

[CortinaGT]

Well, I have tried to analyse the whine in more detail.

Dipping the clutch whilst the sound is audible stops the whine! Whilst the pitch seems consistent, the Intensity of the whine at a given speed is not always consistent and therefore must be dependant on some other variable. So disconnecting the drive with the clutch and the engine revs dropping must surely mean the sound emanates from the engine and its components and not from the transmission!

So back to the regenerative alternator, or maybe intake induction noise - something I previously totally discounted :think: ?

Lets face it - we are dealing with an engine design like nothing before it - even the exhaust does not have an external manifold! (see my link to the engine design in 'Running-In Information'). I really don't think its a problem

Of course, there is very little sound insulation anyway: " Good sound insulation of the interior is enabled by special tuning of structural damping as it interacts with other acoustic elements. The up! development team also focused on systematic sealing of the body to minimise entry of undesirable noises into the passenger compartment, and this also reduced the need for sound-absorbing materials." (From the aforementioned engine design link.)

Any further thoughts?

[Ootohere]

As you analyse the whine are you looking for something you think is a fault,

or just wanting to know the source of the noise?

Personally i do not think that pushing in the clutch discounts the gearbox or drivetrain, drive shafts, CV's etc.

It might just mean its the gearbox while transmitting drive to the vehicle and not when not.

You have wheels and tyres and parts whirring around, ether driven parts under power or freewheeling and at the same speed untill the vehicle slows down.

You revs might drop in the engine but it is still doing what engines do, you will be off the throttle a bit i imagine untill ready to let the clutch bite again..

I would try to borrow an identical vehicle from a dealership & see if it sounds to you like your one does.

I can see how someone could notice a similar thing in a Camper & a Civic,

as others will notice a similar whine in all different and various vehicles.

Then the person sitting next to them or taking over the driving might notice nothing.

Others will just turn up the radio,

& possibly come time someone with hearing particularly attuned to vehicle noises then points out the

source of the particular one that you have wondered about for ages.

george

[CortinaGT]

Hi George

Having spent a lifetime (now retired) with many different vehicles, I am intrigued as much as anything else! But I do like to know what causes a noise though. Many years ago I used to prepare my own cars for rallying (perhaps thats what influenced my forum name!) Being able to hear the mechanicals again in a non-heavily sound deadend vehicle is like the old days!

What intrigues me is the sound level is not consistant. i.e. Same road, same speed - sound level different. Never had that with older, more basic vehicles. As I explained before, the whine will appear at the same level on and off throttle - just achieving the mid point between drive and over-run and the sound reduces. So if you dip the clutch and the sound disappears, but the vehicle transmission, wheels etc are all still revolving, then I think you can discount items after the engine.

On the Up! forum, most turn up the radio! I seldom have the radio on!

Edited 8 September, 2012 by CortinaGT

[balltofeet]

Most of you need to get a life - this car is less than £10K and is a quite as most cars on the road sounds like some people on hear have had too much whine and winge! Rant over

[CortinaGT]

balltofeet

No whinge - intrigue. It would be nice to know what causes the sound, as you can see both here and on the Up! forums, it does worry some owners and an unusual sound must have a cause - normal or not. An answer would be good for all, don't you think? In new cars of a previous generation, a sound like that would likely be indicative of a problem!

[Liam2]

For the first time yesterday I noticed what I would call a whistle at in or around 50-60mph. As others have reported it seems to present itself in 5th., in my case at steady pace between drive and lift off. It's very high pitched.....must be close to the limits of my hearing. I wouldn't call it loud, but the frequency draws attention to it. I have 200 odd miles on the clock. Haven't noticed it before and wasn't listening for anything. I did, however, have a recollection of previous reference to a whistle causing me to do a search on the forum, which brought me here. A whine would infer to me something much lower in frequency than this.

[Auric Goldfinger]

All my Cars have had a whine

" The Wife "

[lemonvrs]

I noticed all manner of noises on my test drive, reminded me of cars of the 70s! I think the folks on the Up forum want perfection and dont realise this VW is built down to a price.

Having said that, no unusual noises from the wifes 107 or her previous one!

Maybe VWs technical dept want to remind us of the original peoples car?

[Rothbard]

I hear two types of whining/whistle.

a) When accelerating at higher speeds (+90km/h). I kinda like that turbo-like sound.

From time to time when going at a steady speed from around 90km/h. As Liam2 points out, it's very high-pitched, like the sound you hear after a loud bang. I imagine people a little older would not be able to hear it. Usually it goes away if I accelerate or decelerate a little.

Edited 29 October, 2012 by Rothbard

[Liam2]

I hear two types of whining/whistle.

a) When accelerating at higher speeds (+90km/h). I kinda like that turbo-like sound.

From time to time when going at a steady speed from around 90km/h. As Liam2 points out, it's very high-pitched, like the sound you hear after a loud bang. I imagine people a little older would not be able to hear it. Usually it goes away if I accelerate or decelerate a little.

Yes from your description the number two sound is the one I have heard. Like I said.....close to the limits of my hearing...I'm 68.

[GeneralPurpose]

The fact so many of you have noticed the 'whine' is indicative that one exists for sure. I have not of course heard any of your whines but I would say you don't need to be worried. I have to agree with George (sk4gw) that dipping the clutch does not exclude the gearbox/gear train. In fact from your description I would say it's the final drive to the drive shafts incorporating the differential gears. These take a long time to bed in. Not the normal 1500 miles the rest of the engine roughly takes. As does the gearbox too. In my experience the gearbox/final drive is the source of 98% of all whining noises that customers complain about (excluding the wife!). Usually the complaint is made during the first 1500 miles. Usually the whine goes away after a couple of thousands of miles or so. Giving the engine some work to do will help the matter. Each gear and shaft in the transmission needs to not only run in but work harden too. That's in spite of the hardening process at the factory. Untill that process is complete gears are often a little noisey and can whine giving the impression it's a bearing that's at fault. The gears create a harmonic resonance with each other to create the whine. Monitor but don't worry would be my advice. The whine will probably just go away eventually when the engine and geabox unit is bedded in.

Cortina, it would be great if you can report on here what is happening to your car as the miles go on regarding the whine.

Edit: there is one other possibility I've just thought of. It might just be that the gearbox is using 'straight cut gears' for it's main gear drive shafts as opposed to more normal 'Helical gears' with cross cut profiles. Straight cut gears are very fuel efficient but can be a little noisey and whine. I don't know what the gearbox specs are so cannot say for sure. But given the car is designed to be very fuel efficient, that's a possibility. I'll try and look into it. Any thoughts George?

Edited 2 November, 2012 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

This is my thoughtful and relaxing day.

so here goes.

'Cars are for driving not just to look at and listen to!'

Put some miles on them

& enjoy their little subtle differences in, weather, temperatures, road surfaces, solo driving and with passengers.

I think it is about a whole year round in all seasons before you really get to know a new car & a car matures into its self.

Then once you know it well try another car & you know how much you love the one you spend most time with.

If you find that actually you have been putting up with something not so good, get shot of it.

george

[Crista]

Well said George.

[CortinaGT]

I realised when I saw Estate Man's reminder that I should input some more information on the topic I started – and yes, I do have some more information! BTW – it's definitely not the noise of straight cut gears – this is a sound I know very well from years ago!! I am not sure, but I don't think that there are any normal non-performance vehicles that do not have helical gears – but please enlighten me if there are! (I always say you never stop learning!) The gearbox itself is very light on the Citigo – only 25kg with fluid. So the whole assembly has no sound deadening mass and the spinning components therefore can't have weight to have any flywheel effect, hence problems with 'chattery' gearboxes – but that is another forum topic which I will contribute to. That is not my whine creator.

I went out with the dealer's workshop controller with him driving. This was back in late September. On that day he very easily replicated the sound and, like the rest of us, was also both mystified and intrigued. When I asked if he had heard this sound in other larger Skoda Greentech models, he said he had not noticed. Of course all those have sound deadening panels anyway! He checked the Skoda technical bulletins,etc and contacted me a few days later to report that there was no mention of the sound.

About a month later I had to have the PID changed (faulty touch screen from new) and the controller had apparently asked the foreman to see what he made of the sound. I forgot to mention to the controller that on that occasion there was no whine apparent! Anyway, the foreman reported he could only hear transmission whine. I agree.

Being retired, most of my driving is now in daylight and I am also fortunate enough to suffer little stop/start driving. So apart from initial engine starting, there is very little load on the battery. I have now covered about 1200+ miles. (I have been using my wife's car more recently for no other reason than with kitchen refurbishment ongoing, the Citigo was awkward to get to on the drive. Mind you, hers is one of the original 1600 number limited edition 109bhp Nissan Micra 160SR's, so that's fun too! The suspension and setup on that model was done at Nordschleife and in road-trim they were faster around Cadwell Park than the Mini-Coopers!!).

Here is my conclusion – I am absolutely convinced the main noise (whine) emanating from under the bonnet is caused by the regenerative alternator. When the battery is well charged and under little load, I have to really strain to hear the sound above other mechanical sounds. Sometimes I cannot hear it at all. To all extents it is not apparent. However, if the battery has been under some load, then yet again the whine can be clearly heard. Yes, there is some slight transmission noise, but it is not surprising considering the lack of sound insulation! The sound level of the whine is less than in the initial period of having the car, so there may also be the possibilty that the alternator has to bed-in somewhat as well.

My whine – and I believe that of probably most other Citigo and Up! Owners, is the regenerative alternator.

So no worries for me and probably most, if not all of the rest of you with this sound. It's a great car to enjoy ;-)!

Edit 7 Nov: See also my post 25 below which has some further information on the subject.

Edited 7 November, 2012 by CortinaGT

[freedie]

Very succinct, thank you. I believe you are correct.

[GeneralPurpose]

Hi Cortina, nice post and I feel sure you are correct in your analysis. It does make sense regarding the whine. I haven't as yet looked into the gearbox specs for your cars so I don't know if the gearbox chatter is being caused by straight cut gears if indeed there are any in the 'box'. Straight cut gears are in some quarters making a comeback as they are more fuel efficient. The trade off is noise either a resonant whine or gear chatter...but thankfully at a low level. I've been fortunate enough to be working on development of a new diesel engine unit over the last 18 months or so and indeed the box used has straight cut gears. However, we use a very inovative machine process to manufacture and match the gears with amazing results regarding noise reduction. Still not as quiet as helical cut gears but close and the trade of is a saving of some 5%-6% overall reduction in internal friction. May not sound much but it makes a difference when on the road.

Anyway, thanks for posting and keeping us all up to date. Do enjoy the car and keep posting especially with regards to your fuel economy. I'm very interested to know how that pans out once the engines are run in and have a few thousands of mile son the clock.

[CortinaGT]

Thanks for your comments freedie and Estate Man. I always try to make my contributions as clear and well reasoned as possible. This is from experience gleaned from reader comments when I wrote quite a number of magazine articles some years ago!

Estate Man – I did appreciate your thoughts and you obviously you have quite some background in engines and transmissions. Your comments regarding straight-cut gears being developed for normal use is very interesting. For the benefit of those who do not know what we are discussing here, I have attached the following YouTube video of a Nissan 300ZX with straight-cuts to enable them to actually hear the sound in an insulated body car:

I cannot find any information regarding the Citigo gearbox internals – I suspect VAG are keeping it to themselves until the competition have stripped one down! It would be of interest if you could find out more in due course.

[CortinaGT]

I also think the following item would be of interest to Greentech owners and this perhaps gives a clearer description of the regenerative technology that is fitted to our cars. Its from VAG relating to the identical Bluemotion system:

“Regenerative braking helps the vehicle to utilise energy used in driving in the best way possible. Whenever the vehicle with BlueMotion Technology is coasting or braking, i.e. whenever the driver simply lifts his foot off the accelerator or consciously brakes, the generator’s voltage gets increased and is utilised to significantly recharge the vehicle’s battery.

Thanks to this generator control and the fact that the battery is thus always optimally charged, the generator’s voltage can be reduced, for example during acceleration or when constantly maintaining the desired speed. That reduces the load on the engine and thus lowers consumption. In order to make use of regenerative braking special software is needed for the energy management system and modified software for the engine control unit.”

I now believe this further confirms my post 10 comments in which I said that with careful positioning of the throttle between drive and overrun, the whine (when clearly audible) was not apparent. This would be the point when the software is determining which system to switch to. Charging, or regenerative braking charging when the battery needed it.