Is your tin pot Mazda going to Trax this year?

hopefully not as hopefully i'll be in the skoda but this all depends on people getting the required parts to me this century and then getting it mapped in time, i have no doubt on a certain friends ability to save my car

but if mavis does go then i would fully expect your fabia to show it clean pair of heals what with one being an old car running at about 85% and your fabia being uber tuned and stripped out not to mention on top of its game

i'd be interested in seeing your fabia and my octavia on track

it was in reply to this post of yours infact

Indeed...that's why I replied saying that it proved that it was quicker, but didn't necessarily imply it provided better handling...

Rob.

so what makes a can handle better then? corner faster? turn in quicker?

I'm a little confused here. I've not once said in this thread that the fabia vrs is a good handling car nor did I say it handles better than a 4WD. :confused:

Sorry John

Read your post a little to quickly!

That said, 4WD will always handle appallingly, and people will keep on mistaking handling for grip...

Mmmmmm...:thumbdwn:

so what makes a can handle better then? corner faster? turn in quicker?

As far as I'm aware, it's generally regarded as stability, neutrality and adjustability. Getting round a corner quickly doesn't necessarily infer any of these...

Rob.

Mmmmmm...:thumbdwn:

I'm always open to facts if you would like to provide some which prove me to be incorrect.

Rob.

I'm always open to facts if you would like to provide some which prove me to be incorrect.

Rob.

I don't think YOU can prove that "4WD will always handle appallingly"!

If you work from Rob's list above of what makes a car "handle well" I think you'd struggle to achieve everything with 4x4.

"handling" is a very subjective matter which, I dont think can be defined or proved one way or another.

so what makes a can handle better then? corner faster? turn in quicker?

Balance I would have said. Good balance, good grip and adequate power. The same can be said for all form's of drivetrain.

106 Gti as previously mention - one of the best handling cars of all time and FWD

New Skyline thing - Very impressive handling, 4wd

For RWD - take your pick, BMW would me my example here. 50/50 distribution, good turn in etc

They all have a place, they can all handle well, which is "best"? Technically I think there are so many variables overall to prove scientifically which is the better it's almost impossible to do.

In my view it's ALL down to personal preference which drivetrain suits you.

As an aside, but an example of my personal preference, I drove a 601 bhp RWD Cosworth last night. Yes - it was by far the fastest accelerating car I have ever driven, in fact my neck hurt afterwards. I'd leave it standing down the lanes round here though in my shopping car. His car however does 180 mph in 18 seconds and a standing 1/4 in 10 something. A Megane R26 F1 would smash me down the lanes, no question, despite me being quicker in a straight line. And quite a few of us have made Skyline's look silly on track.

None of the above means one is better than the other overall, just in those scenarios.

Personal preference - thats all.

I don't think YOU can prove that "4WD will always handle appallingly"!

If you're pushing the same power to all four wheels, they'll all be turning at the same rate (not a good thing when you're going round a corner) and it'll tend towards understeer (not neutral).

If you have some trickery which reduces the power to certain wheels to compensate for this inherent trait, you'll lose a lot of predictability in what the car is doing - which compromises adjustability and stability.

QED.

Rob.

I agree with you 'Shifty'!

Think i'd give you a good run round the country lanes in my Evo though and blitz the Cosworth for good measure!

If you're pushing the same power to all four wheels, they'll all be turning at the same rate (not a good thing when you're going round a corner) and it'll tend towards understeer (not neutral).

If you have some trickery which reduces the power to certain wheels to compensate for this inherent trait, you'll lose a lot of predictability in what the car is doing - which compromises adjustability and stability.

QED.

Rob.

Quite

Try pushing an Evo through a roundabout. You lose some grip, you go to correct it - so does the computer trickery and you end up over correcting it. Obviously if you owned one, it would be something to simply get used to, but it doesn't follow normal rules, thus you actually have no idea where it is going to go.

Sorry John

Read your post a little to quickly!

:

No problem.

Think Shifty & Rob have finshed this discussion now with valid points.

So then about this woman kicking Gary's **** in a saxo...

:rofl::rofl:

I think the general thing here is "different strokes for different folks"

Things ive seen demonstrated on telly off the top of my head:

GTR being fecking quick (4wd but mostly RWD)

M3(RWD) still being faster than a Audi S4(4wd) even in the rain

The Jap Civic TypeR saloon thingy (FWD) being faster than a S2000(rwd) on a track

Evo/STI keeping up with a Gallardo on track or round wales

Mazda 3 MPS(fwd) beating a R32(4wd) and the new WRX round a track.

I could go on and on and on..

as has been said several times on various programs like topgear etc about it being very difficult to crash a evo/wrx 4wd car because the amount of grip flatters the driver. fwd cars are more difficult to drive fast, even more so for RWD, but theres the increase in reward..

I have a couple of mates here who like their cars, one currently has a 2.7bi-turbo S4.. which is 4wd.. he thinks its well quick because he can pull out of junctions quickly and put all his power down.. he got an S4 because he had a reputation for spinning the Beemers he had before it.... so alot to be said about driver skill there... as i doubt hes got any better since his S4.......

The other has a A3 TDI quattro.. again, thinks its the best thing since sliced bread, i argue what is the use of 4wd on a 140bhp car :confused:

so at the end of the day.. its whatever floats yer boat...

Personally ill stick with FWD for now as id kill myself if i had a RWD and i would want 400bhp+ before i considered 4wd (even then id rather have a M5)

Forget the saxo, you're missing the most important bit!!!

Was the woman attractive

At least then Gary can say he LET her win

If you're pushing the same power to all four wheels, they'll all be turning at the same rate (not a good thing when you're going round a corner) and it'll tend towards understeer (not neutral).

If you have some trickery which reduces the power to certain wheels to compensate for this inherent trait, you'll lose a lot of predictability in what the car is doing - which compromises adjustability and stability.

QED.

Rob.

what complete rubbish, what your talking about is a car with 50/50 front to rear split and side to side split which not all cars are, mostly agricultural and commercial vehicles. most if not all AWD cars have a rear bias to help against understeer, just for example my mazda has something like a 45/55 split and the skoda octavia works opposite going from 0/100 upto 50/50.

God reading this has made my laugh

most if not all AWD cars have a rear bias to help against understeer, just for example my mazda has something like a 45/55 split and the skoda octavia works opposite going from 0/100 upto 50/50.

See my second point with regards "trickery".

Rob.

If you have some trickery which reduces the power to certain wheels to compensate for this inherent trait, you'll lose a lot of predictability in what the car is doing - which compromises adjustability and stability.

QED.

Rob.

Like a differential, which all cars have ....... hmmmmm ?

Like a differential, which all cars have ....... hmmmmm ?

Indeed - but if you have something adjusting torque to each wheel individually, it's going to affect the predicability of the vehicle (which in turn affects adjustability).

With two driven wheels on a differential only the behaviour of two of the wheels is unpredictable, making them generally more adjustable (with RWD typically being more adjustable than FWD).

Rob.

Jinkies Scoob,

And I got slammed for bringing up old threads????

At least someone remembered differentials in there. 4wd cars have at least 2 diffs, usually there's a third on in the middle too - they distribute power and allow slippage around corners. Thats why LSD's are handy for controlling the power distribution - some are even adjustable too.

Sorry for sounding condesending, but I am.

106 Gti as previously mention - one of the best handling cars of all time and FWD

Definitely have to agree with this - the 106 GTi I had a go in was simply a go kart - you could throw that thing into a bend and due to the low centre of gravity and little weight it held on with minimal roll and perfect adjustability. Great fun.

As for the Saxo, I'd say forced induction here - common on those things. Mate of mine was into the modded Saxo scene before getting his CTR.

One of them had fitted a Supercharger to a VTR and was running silly power. The other had turbo'd a VTS and that was even more mental - there's video's of them on the web I think...lemme see if I can dig them out.

Aside from that though I drove standard VTR's and VTS's and was bitterly dissapointed in terms of straight line speed. Both need winding on a hell of a lot and even then feel a little 'hairdryer-esque'. VTR felt a bit more torquey low down with the VTS revving far better - typical 8v vs 16v I guess, but neither really 'felt' that quick aside from being small and like your bum was 4" from the ground. Throttle bodies would give sharper and snappier response and better breathing top end if coupled with head work, intake and exhaust mods but otherwise will not leave a mapped vRS like it had it's parking brake on - no way.

Jinkies Scoob,

And I got slammed for bringing up old threads????

quote]

have you ever posted without mentioning this... its a bit tired now....

i do find it funny how some of you rave about how good the 106 gti was yet slate the saxo vts, such comedy.

i do find it funny how some of you rave about how good the 106 gti was yet slate the saxo vts, such comedy.

The irony is so thick you can swim in it.