VW UK Action plan for EA 189 EU5 engines

[Ootohere]

I do not think there is much difference in the real world.

None Seat Dealers do not want a Seat, and various other VW Diesel cars that are offered to them.

 

If Volkswagen Group Main Dealers are offering an extra £1,600 as an average less than they would have in the last quarter 2015 that will be easy to audit.

If a seller privately is getting £1,600 less than the true 'Used Car Value' on a Euro 5 TDI that will be interesting to know what they sold.

[Sullyman]

All, I hear the comments about £1.6k and this is interesting.  My comments have been about what will the "fix" do to my BHP, torque and MPG.  Will it cost me more and will the car be slower.  I bought the car to keep it for a long while.  I have a complete MPG log so if I have the fix, then see a reduction in MPG I will know that the "fix" is the issue.  I am thinking of dyno my bhp and torque pre and post "fix" to see what I see.  I will wait and see.

[branwell]

Out of interest, does anyone know how much having a dyno test to determine bhp and torque would be pre and post "fix"?

[Sullyman]

Hi branwell, I have had a quote for £50.  Think I will do this and share with you all.

[Wardy]

Only issue is variations with rolling road setups. And air temps etc, especially if you want to make comparisons pre and post 'fix' and/or with different cars.

 

£50 is about the going rate, or cheaper if you wanted to get a few cars together and organise a Rolling Road day - we have quite a bit of experience doing that on here.

[Sullyman]

Hi Wardy, take your points - good stuff.  So when the "fix" is issued is there a way several affected cars/people get together for a rolling day and then do the fix and re do rolling road to see what happens on average?  I'm up for it, I just want to know what the effect on the car will be.

[Wardy]

It's possible, with a bit of organisation. However, you'd also need co-ordination of people taking cars to dealers, for the eventual fix to be applied.

 

Then you'd need two days with the same/very similar climatic conditions (air temp and pressure), for the results to be meaningful.

[GAFF]

Technical measures for the EA 189 diesel engines affected presented to the German Federal Motor Transport Authority

https://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/en/detailpage/-/detail/Technical-measures-for-the-EA-189-diesel-engines-affected-presented-to-the-German-Federal-Motor-Transport-Authority/view/2925586/7a5bbec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=eF44sKfs

[Sagalout]

Article in Honest John today.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-ea189-recalls-to-start-in-january-2016/

[Smokeyjoe]

Am I the only cynical member on here who sees the 2.0 TDI 'FIX' to be no more than the removal of the cheat bit of the software that fudged NOX levels so that performance in the real world is not changed and neither are the CO2 emissions. It would be interesting to include CO2 emissions in the before and after tests to see if the quoted figures that we bought our cars with were accurate, and what they were after the software 'upgrade'.

 

As NOX figures are not quoted in the UK (or Europe?) then VW don't appear to need to do anything to alter the car in the UK other than remove the cheat software element which should not have been there in the first place.

 

Am I missing something here?

[Breezy_Pete]

Missing almost everything, to be blunt.

The cheat bit of the software is what's in use all the time **except** during the Euro 5 testing, which *does* measure NOx. That testing is done prior to the release of each new model into the European market.

[Clive smith]

Am I the only cynical member on here who sees the 2.0 TDI 'FIX' to be no more than the removal of the cheat bit of the software that fudged NOX levels so that performance in the real world is not changed and neither are the CO2 emissions. It would be interesting to include CO2 emissions in the before and after tests to see if the quoted figures that we bought our cars with were accurate, and what they were after the software 'upgrade'.

 

As NOX figures are not quoted in the UK (or Europe?) then VW don't appear to need to do anything to alter the car in the UK other than remove the cheat software element which should not have been there in the first place.

 

Am I missing something here?

You are not the only one, as I said earlier in these posts, in  Europe the NOX emissions are not tested in an MOT and the "cheat" only works under certain conditions which are never met in the normal MOT so I dont understand why any performance / economy changes should happen. Try to see the BBC Panarama

Edited 13 December, 2015 by Clive smith

[Smokeyjoe]

Missing almost everything, to be blunt.

The cheat bit of the software is what's in use all the time **except** during the Euro 5 testing, which *does* measure NOx. That testing is done prior to the release of each new model into the European market.

Now I am even more confused.

 

I thought that the cheat software was used to put a car into 'clean mode' during testing to reduce the NOX levels, but when on the road in real driving conditions it did not interfere with the engine and allowed it to emit larger levels of NOX. This was to gain EURO 5 approval.

 

Manufacturers do not claim NOX levels in their brochures - only CO2 emissions which are used to give a guide as to how much greenhouse gas is being emitted and puts a car in a tax bracket for road tax, and for company car tax in the UK. CO2 is tested in MOT's - not NOX.

 

Surely the main problem is to do with EURO 5 approval which requires lower levels of NOX (including CO2 I imagine) so if the 2.0TDI is just having the cheat software removed, it must have been able to pass EURO 5 tests without it. In any case it should make no difference in the UK as far as MOT is concerned as they pass the CO2 tests already without any cheat software in action.

 

On the other hand, if the new software does more than just remove the cheat element to get NOX levels down, then we should make sure that the car performs as well afterwards as it did before. My original question was should we also have a CO2 test before and after as well as dyno tests of performance?

[Smokeyjoe]

You are not the only one, as I said earlier in these posts, in  Europe the NOX emissions are not tested in an MOT and the "cheat" only works under certain conditions which are never met in the normal MOT so I dont understand why any performance / economy changes should happen. Try to see the BBC Panarama

 

I did see Panorama which was shocking. I am just wondering what they are going to do to the 2.0 TDI as it sound like they are just removing the cheat element of the software and if that is the case there will be no difference in performance at all.

 

If they do change the other elements of the software, it would be useful to know if CO2 levels have altered along with bhp and torque figures - just out of interest.

[Breezy_Pete]

Now I am even more confused.

Sorry!

 

I thought that the cheat software was used to put a car into 'clean mode' during testing to reduce the NOX levels, but when on the road in real driving conditions it did not interfere with the engine and allowed it to emit larger levels of NOX. This was to gain EURO 5 approval.

Kinda the opposite. The 'defeat device' put's the car out of clean mode when it isn't being tested, i.e. virtually all the time. This type of device is specifically forbidden in the rules of the test, so even though the cars passed the test in terms of NOx, CO, HCs etc.t hey did so without sticking to the rules, so the test results are invalid.  i.e. The cars are now known to be non-compliant with Euro5.

If owners had done this themselves, and it had been discovered, Construction and Use regs/laws could forbid the cars from being used on the road.

 

Since the owners were entirely 'in the dark', it isn't reasonable for any authorities to do this, so it's up to VW to find a fix, and make the cars truly compliant with EU5.  Just removing the 'defeat device' would make the cars run in 'compliant-mode' all the time, which they almost certainly couldn't sustain for very long, as they were never designed to do so.

 

 

Manufacturers do not claim NOX levels in their brochures - only CO2 emissions which are used to give a guide as to how much greenhouse gas is being emitted and puts a car in a tax bracket for road tax, and for company car tax in the UK. CO2 is tested in MOT's - not NOX.

I think someone recently said that the NOx levels were quoted on his V5? Not sure as I don't have a Euro 5 car to check. Correct, not tested in MOT though, but that doesn't mean the car is legal, see above.  CO₂ doesn't need to meet any particular levels in MOT. Only opacity/smokiness of exhaust is currently tested in MOT for diesels.

 

Surely the main problem is to do with EURO 5 approval which requires lower levels of NOX (including CO2 I imagine) so if the 2.0TDI is just having the cheat software removed, it must have been able to pass EURO 5 tests without it. In any case it should make no difference in the UK as far as MOT is concerned as they pass the CO2 tests already without any cheat software in action.

Exactly, but they cheated, so don't really have the approval. NOx can never include CO₂, they are totally different gases.  'Just having the cheat software removed' actually means re-jigging the whole calibration of all the engine control and emissions treatment control software to hopefully be able to run in a way that is like the mode it ran in when it detected that it was under test (in terms of NOx levels), but without any negative effect on drivability/economy/longevity. This won't be easy hence it having taken months already to decide what they are going to do. However simple a 'software update' might sound, it's potentially a huge change, and may well have impact on all of those things.

 

 

 

On the other hand, if the new software does more than just remove the cheat element to get NOX levels down, then we should make sure that the car performs as well afterwards as it did before. My original question was should we also have a CO2 test before and after as well as dyno tests of performance?

 

Best bet is to keep a log of trip meter reading each time you brim the tank (and re-zero the trip), work out the true mpg for your normal driving over however many tanks-full you use between now and when/if the 'fix' is done, then keep doing the same afterwards to see if economy has changed.  CO₂ and economy are closely linked, higher CO₂ means worse economy, and vice versa.

 

Hope this helps a little? If the fix is optional, which it sounds as though it may be, then whether you do it or not really depends on where you live and your level of conscience about emitting poisons. If you live in, or often drive into, a big city, consider getting it done. If not, I wouldn't. Mid-Sussex sounds reasonably rural, so maybe don't bother.

Edited 13 December, 2015 by Wino

[gevans]

Surely it depends on whether or not the code in question is active on UK models or just "redundant" code that is not addressed? If the code is not addressed then removing it completely would nave no effect whatsoever.

[Breezy_Pete]

Didn't you see the Panorama programme?

 

Here's a quote from an article about it:

 

"When we showed VW our results, they confirmed the car had been cheating."

 

Seems quite conclusive to me.

[Llanigraham]

Wino,

Are you a computer expert?

Have you read all the "codes" in the programming?

 

Or are you just speculating?

[Breezy_Pete]

Just giving my honest opinion Graham, perhaps informed by a scientific background and having read a lot about this issue on here, on tdiclub forum, and generally online as it interests me. I've done a little programming of microcontrollers, a while back, but I wouldn't call myself a computer expert by a million miles. 

Any particular part of what I've posted that you have a problem with? Did you see the Panorama programme? Do you have anything to contribute to understanding the situation?

[cheezemonkhai]

Not the old pd engine te latest cr tdi ! That's what we talking about !

 

And the CR replaced the PD... so people were noticing a problem

 

 

Just giving my honest opinion Graham, perhaps informed by a scientific background and having read a lot about this issue on here, on tdiclub forum, and generally online as it interests me. I've done a little programming of microcontrollers, a while back, but I wouldn't call myself a computer expert by a million miles. 

Any particular part of what I've posted that you have a problem with? Did you see the Panorama programme? Do you have anything to contribute to understanding the situation?

 

Well I am a computer expert and programmed embedded c, which is what the majority of car ECUs use.

It'll be very interesting to see exactly what was going on, although I somehow doubt it will ever come out and everything will remain speculation.

Edited 17 December, 2015 by cheezemonkhai

[Breezy_Pete]

From the same article as I quoted from previously (here);

 

"This would have been the likely condition in your test. As you ran the second test (described as a hot test) immediately afterwards, the vehicle did not recognise this as a test condition and changed its emission strategy."

 

That's what VW said to Panorama. That's not speculation, that's straight from the horse's mouth, isn't it?

 

As far as I understand it, developing a workable strategy for running the engines in a compliant mode all the time isn't really a software/programming problem, it's an engine management design problem (and/or hardware design problem, potentially). 'Software update' means re-designing/re-calibrating the engine management strategy, which can be radically altered via the software. Would you agree cheezemonkai?

[pipmurray]

This in the latest Auto Express...

” CEO Matthias Müller told Auto Express. “The impact will be negligible – customers won’t be able to feel it.”

Müller also confirmed that it won’t just be US customers who will be receiving compensation from VW. “Our customers are our focus and we take care of all our customers,” he said. “We’re working on an effective package for all our customers.”

[Wardy]

This in the latest Auto Express...

” CEO Matthias Müller told Auto Express. “The impact will be negligible – customers won’t be able to feel it.”

 

 

It's whether to believe him or not; that's the issue!

[branwell]

This in the latest Auto Express...

” CEO Matthias Müller told Auto Express. “The impact will be negligible – customers won’t be able to feel it.”

Müller also confirmed that it won’t just be US customers who will be receiving compensation from VW. “Our customers are our focus and we take care of all our customers,” he said. “We’re working on an effective package for all our customers.”

Will be interesting to find out what any compensation will be. If the impact of any modifications are negligible then presumably any compensation will be negligible. I am just adding more speculation...

[warley]

Will be interesting to find out what any compensation will be. If the impact of any modifications are negligible then presumably any compensation will be negligible. I am just adding more speculation...

Whatever they offer I expect it will require a signature from owners agreeing that it is a 'full and final settlement' which would preclude participation in any other legal action eg class action suits for loss of value. It may be a matter of owners choosing which way to go. On a slightly related topic one of my friends is giving up on Shoda "in disgust because of the cheating" and is selling her Octavia 1,6 TDi to  her son at a knockdown price. She is buying a new Dacia! I suggested hanging on to see if there is any compo but it fell on deaf ears!