Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[Ootohere]

Plug the lead into the OBD, set to test to disengage the Crash Protection etc.

Then on the snow leave on Traction Control spin the front wheels and you might well get a cut in power.

 

But then just Spin the wheels in Snow with Traction Control on without doing anything else you can get a cut in power,

and ESP or other functions nipping Brakes and putting you off line in forward or reverse if you do get traction and moving.

 

Technology, got to love it. Or put up with it.

You need to live with it these days,

or just maybe drive diesel cars pre-ECU, Basic, Fuel, Air and Heat.

eg Diesel Engine, once running you do not even need a battery connected.

 

But people want Electric everything doing all sorts for them, keeping it comfy, maybe not as Green as we were

lead to believe it would be from 2009, 2015, 2020 etc.

[lol-lol]

Visionary article from the BBC two months before the VW diesel scandal broke, quite a few key point IMO....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33254803    

By Richard Anderson Business reporter, BBC News  16 July 2015

Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel?

In the 1920s, pregnant women were encouraged to drink Guinness to increase their iron intake.  For decades we were all told to avoid fatty butter and eat synthetic margarine. Both pieces of health advice have since been discredited.  We are now learning that millions of motorists who've bought diesel cars believing they were less harmful to the environment have been equally misguided. Diesel cars emit less carbon dioxide (CO2) than their petrol equivalent, we were told. In fact, not only are CO2 emissions almost identical on average, but they also produce large quantities of other pollutants linked with thousands of premature deaths.  Carmakers say they have already taken action to reduce emissions greatly, while regulators are beginning to acknowledge the problem, but the challenge remains enormous.  The reason is simple: about half of all cars currently sold in Europe are diesel powered.  As Greg Archer at Brussels-based think-tank Transport & Environment says: "The car industry is fighting to keep selling diesel because it has invested so heavily in the wrong technology".

Different reality

Air pollution caused by diesel engines is, for now, a peculiarly European problem. Of the 70 million cars sold worldwide last year, only 10 million were diesel. Three quarters of those were sold in Europe.  Quite why European carmakers developed diesel in the first place is a moot point, but some have argued that as domestic heating systems turned from oil to gas, oil companies needed to find an alternative market for their mid-range distillate, or diesel fuel.  The industry itself points to government incentives, such as lower tax rates for companies buying fleets of diesel vehicles. "All manufacturers followed this political direction," says the European Automobile Manufacturers Association.

 

And, in theory, it was an easy sell - diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, so running costs are cheaper. Using less fuel should mean lower emissions.  In practice, however, laboratory measurements of CO2 emissions from diesel and petrol engines are the same, according to Martin Adams at the European Environment Agency (EEA). And as diesel cars tend to be bigger and heavier, any advantages in efficiency are wiped out.  As a result, average CO2 emissions from diesel cars are only fractionally lower than those from petrol cars, figures from the UK's Society of Motor Manufacturers show. The industry counters that of course emissions would be greater from larger cars, and maintains that when comparing like-for-like models, diesels do emit noticeably less.  But carbon emissions aren't the main problem when comparing diesel with petrol. So-called particulate matter, which causes cancer, and nitrogen oxide and dioxide (NOx) are the real concern. Recent studies have shown that nitrogen dioxides (NO2) can cause or exacerbate a number of health conditions, such as inflammation of the lungs, which can trigger asthma and bronchitis, increased risk of heart attacks and strokes, and lower birth weight and smaller head circumference in babies.

In some European cities, NO2 levels are more than double World Health Organization guidelines, with diesel vehicles the single biggest contributor.

Indeed air pollution as a whole causes more than 400,000 premature deaths in Europe, with road transport, and diesel in particular, contributing a meaningful chunk.

Inconsistencies

Most of these deaths are caused by particulate matter. Carmakers have recognised this and modern diesel cars are fitted with extremely effective filters that stop almost all of this carcinogenic soot entering the atmosphere. But there is a "significant problem with tampering with filters", according to Mr Archer.

Although a diesel car will fail its MOT if a filter that was originally fitted on the vehicle has been removed, there are a number of specialist companies which advertise doing just this for drivers who want to improve fuel economy and performance. Removing them isn't against the law.

So when you see a car belching out thick black smoke, the chances are it will be a diesel with a faulty or a missing filter.

These filters also perform best when hot, and short trips around town won't heat your engine sufficiently. Nor do they help with secondary particulate matter, which is formed from NOx, the effects of which are not fully understood.

 

 

How to reduce emissions from your diesel car

• Don't accelerate unnecessarily
• Get your car serviced regularly
• Turn your engine off if you are stationary for more than one minute
• Stick to the speed limits, especially on the motorway
• Check your car's levels of urea (ammonia used to trap NOx)
• Be very careful buying any retrofit solutions - none are fit for purpose according to Transport & Environment

Carmakers also have a number of technologies to reduce nitrogen oxide and dioxide levels. These include catalysts, re-circulating some of the exhaust fumes back into the cylinder, and injecting urea, made from ammonia, to trap these gases.   The problem is they are not being used widely enough and, when they are, they don't work as well as they should.

As the respected International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) says, "the technologies for real-world clean diesels already exist, but they are not being employed consistently by different [carmakers]". Some have speculated it's simply a question of cost.  Just how ineffective they are is staggering. Tests conducted by the ICCT show that modern diesel cars emit on average seven times the EU limit for NOx.

 

A separate test showed that some individual cars emit even more - an Audi A8 emitted 22 times the limit. Only three cars - an Audi A5, a VW Golf and a BMW 3-series - complied with EU regulations.

'Meaningless'

The reason carmakers are allowed to keep selling these cars is that EU limits are set according to tests conducted in a laboratory, where conditions bear little relation to real-world driving out on the open road.

 

Actual diesel emissions vs EU limits*

Carmaker Number of models tested  Lowest             Average            Highest

Audi      3                       0.9 times EU limit 8.2 times EU limit 21.9 times EU limit

BMW       7                       0.9                4                  9.9

Citroen   3                       3.2                3.9                5.4

Mazda     2                       2.5                2.9                3.2

Mercedes  3                       3                  4                  4.9

Peugeot   1                       3                  3                  3

Vauxhall  1                       9.5                9.5                9.5

VW        3                       0.7                2.6                6.1

Volvo     1                       2.2                2.2                2.2

Total    24                       0.7                4.5               21.9

 

Source: Transport & Environment think tank.*NOx

 

 

This extraordinary situation, which has effectively rendered current emission limits meaningless, has not escaped the attention of the EU. It wants to introduce limits based on real-world testing by 2017, but needs the agreement of all member states.  Carmakers agree real-world tests are needed, but would prefer more time. Discussions are ongoing, but the likelihood is that new limits will be higher than the current 80mg/km.  Given that this limit was first agreed in 2007, we may well end up with new limits for harmful diesel emissions that are less stringent than those agreed more than a decade earlier - an absurd situation that carmakers and policymakers must do more to address.

[lol-lol]

Articles above VW actually one of the better ones (comparitively if still not within legal limit in reality)!!!!!

[05surveyor]

How on earth does anyone find the time to post 20,808 times?

 

I've got a life to live away from my beloved Skoda!

[Ootohere]

By being retired and having no life.  Any more questions?

(often posting while working on a Skoda as well!)

[05surveyor]

By being retired and having no life.  Any more questions?

(often posting while working on a Skoda as well!)

Ahh! I look on my Skoda as a means of getting from A to B in a reasonable state of comfort and economy. 

 

If I had to work on it it I would consider it a poor investment.

Edited 3 October, 2015 by 05surveyor

[Ootohere]

So would i, so that is why i will be working on other peoples.  Keep them on the road, living their busy life.

 

Now maybe go get on with your own life and keep the car discussions for the General car chat section.

[looby]

These posts are more interesting than the usual "my cars got a rattle".....

[05surveyor]

So would i, so that why i will be working on other peoples.  Keep them on the road, living their busy life.

 

Now maybe go get on with your own life and keep the car discussions for the General car chat section.

 

 

So not really "retired" at all!

[Ootohere]

Yes retired from work,  and hobbies including cars and forums, so now can you get on your yacht please.

& Remember to unblock your diesel overflow pipe.  Skoda poor design fault it seems.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Just seen this on the BBC site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34425306

 

Not a comprehensive test, but probably a fair indication of 'real world' driving.

The NOx levels on the VW is about 4 times the EU5 limits, but nowhere near the 10 - 40 times the limits that has been banded about in the media. Then the Ford is 5 times the EU6 limits which it is supposed to meet.

The US CARB sets NOx limits that are a lot lower than Euro 5, so the same car could be much further over the limit in America.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

There was a recent statement from the Transport Minister(?) that I think I saw here - confirming there would be no retrospective hiking of road tax for any higher 'real world' CO2 emissions. 

 

And now this in yesterday's Telegraph...

 

"Do I have to get my car fixed?

 

The Department for Transport says drivers with cars fitted with Volkswagen's pollution-cheating software are under no obligation to send the vehicles back to VW dealerships to get them modified.

"If a driver didn't return the vehicle, that wouldn't be illegal," a DfT spokesman said, although he added that failure to do so could affect any warranty on the car as well as its resale value.

Motorists would not be fined if their cars weren't fixed, "but it is in their interest to do it".

It’s possible that the necessary software update will leave drivers with a car that doesn't perform as efficiently as they were told it would when they bought it.

You may face higher fuel bills as tighter controls on the car’s emissions will lower its fuel economy."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11899049/What-happens-if-my-VW-car-has-emissions-cheating-software.html

 

As many of the EA189 vehicles are now out of warranty, being over three years old, then this presumably means carry on regardless...?  

 

cheers

 

Mustard

[67igor1]

But they said as well:

"‘The Government expects VW to support owners of these vehicles already purchased in the UK and we are playing our part by ensuring no one will end up with higher tax costs as a result of this scandal."

 

one side: no more tax for owners

second side: Motorists would not be fined if their cars weren't fixed

 

Something is not right...

[vxh26]

How on earth does anyone find the time to post 20,808 times?

<SNIP>

By cutting and pasting the same old wives' tales repeatedly?

 

Alternatively, by being an expert at using JavaScript

[Ootohere]

I have never cut and pasted a single thing in my life on a computer, no idea how to..

every link is typed in, as is every letter of every word.   

You might notice being such a expert that i have never even used a quote taken across from anyone elses post 

other than typing in what they said or wrote.

 

Now troll on vhx26.   

[cheshire_cat]

High(er) EGR rates can be successful at reducing NO_x creation, and higher EGR use does cause more particulate emissions, but hopefully DPFs can cope...

until proceeding  at steady pace down the local blacktop when we puff it out the back in large clouds  at 15-20 second intervals  hoping no one will notice--  nice-- that's what I call emissions control

[VAGCF]

Owners let off the hook. Perhaps VW will have to pick up any difference straight to government?

 

Didn't know they were ever on it? They are the innocent party here.

 

In any case the government set the amount of VED based on the figures they had at the time and so got the revenue expected.

 

Now of course that many more folks are buying more energy efficient etc. vehicles the rates are going up as we know. The government haven't lost anything due to this scandal.

[VAGCF]

I had to smile at that as well, I realise there's going to be a difference between real world and lab testing but the size of the difference is ridiculous.  While I'm sure the manufacturers aren't fitting cheat devices, there must be a lot of rule bending going on to get the emissions so low when testing.  I don't see why VW can't do the same with the recalled cars to get them recertified for their EU bands given rivals with similar technology also got through these tests.

 

John

 

I don't think it's so much rule bending by the manufacturers it's the way that the authorities have set out and allowed the test to be carried out. In the piece on the BBC last night they showed real world tests on a Passat (Euro5) and a Focus (Euro6) and found, IIRC, that both were between 4 and 6 times over the test result. Why they didn't use the same Euro I don't know but that made it more damning for the Focus.

 

When they showed the lab test being carried out the car was covered in some kind of sheet for some reason and they said the car is only accelerated slowly etc. i.e. not as in real world conditions. So as many have said it's the test that is at fault and lies squarely at the door of the bureaucrats.

 

Given that it seems that many, if not all, manufacturers cars are performing similarly in lab and real world tests then if VW hadn't been stupid enough to cheat in the US they wouldn't be in quite the mess they are now. Serious but not as serious. And of course not helped by having the software on EU cars when seemingly they don't need it? But that is something that more information is required on.

[wiilydog]

having cheat software on EU cars is probably due to economies of scale in that the software fixed for a particular model but only certain functions will be activated dependent on country and spec, as anyone with VCDS cable will know how much non standard options you can play around with

[NigNB]

So many different reports in the media, and my dealer has just sent me a polite information email indicating that there may be an issue with my car.

Although I do have a 2014 1.6TDI Rapid Spaceback, which doesn't appear to have an EA189 engine, my previous car was a 2010 2.0 TDI Octavia which may well have - hence I might have "caught" the email in error.

However, anyone out there know if Rapids may be mixed up in the fiasco?

[chrisgreen]

According to reports, it is only cars with the Euro 5 2.0 Diesel that might be affected. IIRC the Rapid is not offered with that lump.

Sent from my iPad Mini with Retina using Tapatalk, please excuse any typos.

[NigNB]

Although almost all reports identify the 2.0TDI engines, increasingly some 1.6TDI blocks are being implicated.

If so, this opens the problem up even further......

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-12m-uk-cars-to-be-recalled-still-no-answers-from-vw

Off to check V5 for which CAY engine code I have?

[Gromle]

Noe some of the Norwegian media has begun to call this incident the death of diesel...

Lets see. So far this year about 40% of new cars had been a diesel.

[Ryeman]

I've lost track of whether this has been discussed but, 'Carsguide.com.au' 30 Sep quotes VW as stating that some vehicles will be subject to an "action plan to refit diesel vehicles with the EA 189 EU5 engines"

I thought they were the problem ones, or with some other(?) what?

Maybe they think Australia is just another third world country which can be snowed.

Edited 4 October, 2015 by Ryeman

[Ootohere]

Ryeman,

so what is the Australian Government or Transport agency / Minister saying that the Volkswagen Group in Australia have to do?