Cruelty to humans - right to die?

[SkodaVRS1963]

THIS

 

The guy is perfectly compos-mentis (sorry Sun readers, this thread isn't for you, go and Google "Kardashians").

 

He wants a degree of dignity afforded to him as and when he **chooses** that his time is up.

 

FFS, we euthanise hamsters when they have a tumour the size of a pea.............

 

What am I missing?

[TheWanderer]

THIS

 

The guy is perfectly compos-mentis (sorry Sun readers, this thread isn't for you, go and Google "Kardashians").

 

He wants a degree of dignity afforded to him as and when he **chooses** that his time is up.

 

FFS, we euthanise hamsters when they have a tumour the size of a pea.............

 

What am I missing?

 

You're missing nothing. You got it.

[Breezy_Pete]

Yup.As above.

[Isocrem]

THIS

 

The guy is perfectly compos-mentis (sorry Sun readers, this thread isn't for you, go and Google "Kardashians").

 

He wants a degree of dignity afforded to him as and when he **chooses** that his time is up.

 

FFS, we euthanise hamsters when they have a tumour the size of a pea.............

 

What am I missing?

 

 

You're missing nothing. You got it.

 

Aside from no hyphen in compos mentis.

[CWARD]

Unfortunately where religion and law have merged but failed to evolve. Strangely with all the human rights but not one that always you to end your life in dignity or to end crippling pains that medicine can't relieve.

[skomaz]

This is pretty close to home for me as one of my close friends was diagnosed with MND mid-last year.  She is taking it extremely well and fighting back but it is taking it's toll very quickly.  I can therefore see first hand where this guy is coming from...  and totally agree with the posts above!

[CFB]

+1 here.

I have MS and it is getting worse much faster than I expected after a very bad relapse about 4 years ago.

I expect that it will continue like this.

I totally support the idea.

Digitas is always an option but if the authorities in this country suspect that is where you are travelling to, you can apparently be arrested and charged with attempted suicide.

If I ever go down that route I would "go the long way round"

[Loz]

This will go on and on, with the same arguments about compassion and "they should be able to decide when to end their suffering". Well yes, but there's more to it than that, which is why these cases fail again and again.

You can't legalise murder. That's a very, very dangerous grey area to wade into, and one that would fairly quickly become a total mess.

Where do you draw the line? This person is allowed to kill people, this one isn't. This person HAS to kill people because he's a doctor, but he doesn't want to.

This family are pushing for their relative to be euthanised, but the relative doesn't want to. Maybe they'll agree because they feel like they are a burden?

What happens when you can't prove they definitely consented and a doctor gets accused? What illnesses will be classed as "serious" enough?

It may sound as though I'm being cold hearted, however this was something which inevitably came up during my degree and when it's explained in a text-book fashion it makes total sense. I will be very, very surprised if a day comes where this is legalised and I haven't been shocked on any of the occasions where these people didn't get their wish.

Life is a hideous thing, and we can only hope that this poor man doesn't suffer for long :(

[Breezy_Pete]

Some excellent food for thought, right there, thanks.

[CFB]

I realise that is far more complicated than it first seems, and take your point, but it would be nice to have the choice though.

I guess the decision would have to be made by the patient, with unanimous agreement from next of kin and family, if they have one, when it is proved they have capacity to make the choice.

Documented in a legal document and witnessed like a will maybe.

[Loz]

Nice to have the choice .... yes, possibly(?!) but that's the point, all of the above still applies and it's about much more than the person who thinks it would be "nice to have the choice".

Agreement of the family and next of kin? What? Why?! So because your daughter can't stand to lose their mother or father, that then removes the choice does it? But the person with no family, or a more understanding family can have the choice?

And which family members would have to agree? Just parents? Can siblings have a say? What about cousins? Do adoptive family count? What about estranged ones, or downright nasty characters that actually just want the inheritance?

I think your post raises more problems than answers....

[CFB]

Loz, I am just thinking out loud, so to speak.

As you say, it is a debate that will probably go on for years to come.

Having read your comments I thought it might be useful to look at the Dignitas website.

Their process seems to be more about living than dying.

http://www.dignitas.ch/images/stories/pdf/so-funktioniert-dignitas-e.pdf

Very comprehensive explanation of the process and it is all lead by the patient.

Have a read if you have time.

[Loz]

Yup I know that, I'm just highlighting the reasons why it's never been legalised and is never likely to be

[Breezy_Pete]

Which begs the question, "How come the Swiss allow it?", doesn't it?

[Dr Zoidberg]

I think it's inevitable that this will be legalised at some point, just like a long line of social issues that were once unthinkable, from the abolition of slavery through to gay marriage.

Hopefully it will never affect me directly, but I'd like to know the option would be available should it be needed.

[Loz]

Since when did the Swiss follow U.K. Law?....

I'm not so sure Alex, I think there is a LOT more to consider here and a lot more to go wrong in killing people that letting people of the same sex contract their lives to one another! And similarly - for freeing people from a lift of slavery into a much better life. There aren't really any negative impacts are there?

[Breezy_Pete]

I kinda assume that the Swiss have some laws of their own?

 

I know their landscape is quite different to the UK's but their moral/legal landscape?

Edited 6 January, 2017 by Wino

[Dr Zoidberg]

Since when did the Swiss follow U.K. Law?....

I'm not so sure Alex, I think there is a LOT more to consider here and a lot more to go wrong in killing people that letting people of the same sex contract their lives to one another! And similarly - for freeing people from a lift of slavery into a much better life. There aren't really any negative impacts are there?

I totally agree that there's a lot more to be concerned about with this, and getting the right safeguards is crucial, but I still think it will start to be accepted in more and more countries. It also doesn't need the law to change everywhere or by as much as we might think to be available to all. If assisted suicide is legal overseas, and a court case holds that helping someone travel to Switzerland from the U.K. Isn't an offence even knowing their plans then the practical effect is the same - you can end your own life.

That's why I think it's best to have these debates/arguments in the open and well in advance so we as a country can make sure that we have all the safeguards we need to ensure that it's an appropriate last resort.

[RapidPaul]

Assisted dying is now legal in Canada, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Switzerland. It is also legal in 6 states in the USA. It is surely only a matter of time before it is legalised here, but it will require fresh legislation rather than fresh legal precedent. The appropriate safeguards can be put in place through the courts if necessary, similar to those we have already for people in a PVS.

[Aspman]

The objection mainly surround setting a precedent that may allow someone to be pressured into voluntary euthanasia by relatives. Or for people to make a decision they would regret if that were possible.

 

However, I actually strongly agree with people having the right to die. It's not impossible to put the checks and balances in place, no one wants to take the responsibility since there will inevitably be a mistake at some point.

 

I've seen someone die the hard way through cancer. Sod that, you just have to do the deed while you still can if no one can help.

[Eddie-NL]

I kinda assume that the Swiss have some laws of their own?

 

I know their landscape is quite different to the UK's but their moral/legal landscape?

There are other countries that do it for their citizens, just not for tourists.

[ColinD]

I've got a spot marked out on a hill, a bottle of whiskey, chq for dog rescue and mountainrescue, will power, nature and hypothermia will do the rest. I had a much grander plan till my mother-in-law; GP, broke it down for me. The problem is the care system... It's engineered to keep you warm, watered and cared for... I get mild panic stress when in a carehome, I'm sure like many, we'll never see it coming. So I've got to get to my spot before I can't.

 

A childhood friend recently passed from MS, have to say the last 5 to 10 years was so hard seeing her from the odd month to year intermittently. You can never speak for anyone or know there true inner feelings on what life is and what value it holds. I guess that is the fundamental reason it's going to be so hard to legalise. IT can't be a 1:1 agreement between doc and patient, I had a vision of a parole board like meeting then.

 

I often thought, if I became severely disabled that life as a mountain goat ( of sorts ) would be impossible and then what the heck is the point. Over 20+years I've met and heard stories of this sort of thing happening; by way of a car crash or other unforseen event, and the new life it opens up. It certainly opens up the discussion/debate about when. 

 

Thinking out loud, if switzerland was on the cards I'd be making frequent trips around the area to establish a pattern. The Jungfru and Lucern are lovely spots regardless.

 

I'ts hugely emotive subject, none more so for those living it or facing it. If nothing else this will come down to money, the cost of supporting life will drive changes to the law eventually. The future for a lot of us is a long time past 65. Although I'm of the mindset that actually a generation brought up on McDonalds might reverse this aging trend... Evolution at work, humanity's own checks and balances till the rainforest runs out.

[SkodaVRS1963]

I realise that is far more complicated than it first seems, and take your point, but it would be nice to have the choice though.

I guess the decision would have to be made by the patient, with unanimous agreement from next of kin and family, if they have one, when it is proved they have capacity to make the choice.

Documented in a legal document and witnessed like a will maybe.

 

And that's how easy it is, surely?

 

The patient signs a legally binding document, in the presence of a doctor who also signs to confirm that the patient is of sound mind.

 

The legal trigger then is two independent doctors who confirm that the patient is terminally ill.

 

I don't fancy the last three months of my life being doped up to the eyeballs with morphine, with the inevitable drowsiness and hallucinations, just to prolong something that's coming to an end.

[KenONeill]

And that's how easy it is, surely?

 

The patient signs a legally binding document, in the presence of a doctor who also signs to confirm that the patient is of sound mind.

 

The legal trigger then is two independent doctors who confirm that the patient is terminally ill.

 

I don't fancy the last three months of my life being doped up to the eyeballs with morphine, with the inevitable drowsiness and hallucinations, just to prolong something that's coming to an end.

I'd like to see their next of kin's signature too, unless they're the sole survivor of a family as my sis or I might well be some day.

[SkodaVRS1963]

Nice to have the choice .... yes, possibly(?!) but that's the point, all of the above still applies and it's about much more than the person who thinks it would be "nice to have the choice".

 

No.

 

It isn't.

 

It really isn't.