The story of the famous DQ200 clutch slip...

[n1tro]

On 3/4/2018 at 07:36, krigl said:

The clutches were so damaged with OEM SW, that it takes some time to heal the wounds, but from the minute I driven away with the TVS tune, i noticed a drastic elimination in slips. Lets say from 250rpm slips to 25-50rpm slips, and it is geting better, but I have it only for a weak now. 

The tune also changes the shift pints, so the drive is smoother, no engine lurking any more. And also the car now also has 1st gear, previously it shifted right to second. Economy is the same for now. 

 

Hey Krigl, can you write a bit more about TVS tune? 

 

Where did you get it?

How long did it take to install new software? 

Did you choose your "own" shift points or they made it on their own (for example: did you tell them that you want 7th gear to switch on 80 km/h?) 

Has Sports mode changed too?

 

I would be glad if you could anwers there questions! Thanks!

Edited 7 March, 2018 by n1tro

[bumble72]

On 09/10/2017 at 09:52, krigl said:

If the MAP sensor is through its life soaked in oil (pcv and blow-by gas re-circulation) and also gets fumes from silicon used to glue the engine together on the production stage, I see no problem using this at this spot also. It is in minimal quantities anyhow if you are not an idiot when doing this...

I am a fully qualified idiot, first class however.  How much excess silicone should I use ;-)

[krigl]

TVS has a network of dealers on their map. 69Performance is the Slovenian dealer located in Ljubljana. Process takes about 1h30min, but most of time it is waiting for responce with modified SW file from TVS. Reading and Writing of SW takes each about 5min.

 

I didnt bother of defining my own shift points, since i do not have a tuned car, the dealer also said, to not bother, since TVS has already a good baseline. 

Sport has also changed some, but i did not test it that much. 

[Ootohere]

bumble72, 

plenty do make up Air Intakes / Induction and use Silicone and do kill a MAF. 

There is no accounting for peoples knowledge and if they are 'Simply Clever', and for trying it and seeing, and because one person has no issues so it must be OK.

Edited 8 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[GeneralPurpose]

Ok guys, you'll find this of interest I hope. My own 2017 Fabia 1.2TSI DSG has been faultless over the last year, as have all the other DSG 1.2TSI's in the family. Yet the other day with my wife onboard I had reason to pull out onto a fast 60mph road from a junction. Had driven about a mile from home, engine still warming up. Suddenly, yes you guessed it, the clutches started to slip in sport mode. I don't normally rag the engine when it's still warming up but had to that day as I was moving out into a busy situation. I then turned on to the A12 dual carriageway joining at rush hour at 50mph in 'D'. Decided to accelerate to get past a long line of trucks, and yes, again the clutches started to slip and I could make them slip at will. Once warmed up the slipping stopped and everything was normal. It then did  the same on two other similar journeys on separate days. The car was due a service today at Underwoods Skoda of Colchester so I phoned them to report the issue so they could take a look at it. They wanted me to go out with the master tech so he could see for himself. Interestingly, the tech had not heard of this issue and they have not had to change any clutches on Fabia Mk3's. However, during my test drive (we both had a go at driving the car) no clutch slip was apparent, probably due to the fact the engine was getting too warm and the slip goes away. The tech said he would hook it up to the diagnostic computer and run the car again with a test drive. He didn't like what he found and as I understand it immediately phoned Skoda Technical. Skoda Technical agreed something was amiss and informed him some Fabai's have a clutch issue causing the clutches to slip when the engine is cold and warming up. They are sending a new clutch pack which they seem confident will fix the issue. I don't know if the new clutch packs are different to the ones fitted at the factory. I've not had time to talk directly to the tech or stores to find out. It's going in for the work to be done as soon as the garage has the parts and as soon as the special tools to do the job arrive. Yes, as I mentioned above, they have not had to do one before, ever so they don't have the tools!  I will say I have always found Colchester Underwoods to be a great garage and very attentive and the techs there do a great job. I'll report back as soon as the job is done and let you know if the issue is fixed. At least Skoda are aware of the issue and immediately told the garage what to do to fix it. Lets hope it does!

[krigl]

Likely you will get the clutches fitted and it will be ok for some time, then it will slowly start again. 

 

I was told by the TVS dealer, that newer that clutch pack is the worse it will be, the sliping issue. 

 

I hope you will be the lucky one and get it fixed. But on the other hand I am also happy that finally someone that has such a presence on this forum can verify that others are not talking rubbish. 

[Ootohere]

Terrible that it is Estate Man,

but at the same time good, because being an ex Tech and having had a Engine fail and the car replaced and now the DSG issue he can tell others that he has one of these very very few issues that so often is claimed to be just minor, limited in number and over blown on the internet and not an issue that VW Techs see.

 

Well we are talking a car produced in 2014, and out to the public in 2015 and the UK Warranties are expiring on the first UK cars, 

and Skoda UK will not be able to ignore the issue and pan off customers / owners because thew Manufacturers Warranty has expired.

Edited 8 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[vgnils]

Will be interesting to see how the repair works out, Estate Man. My local workshop wanted to test the car when completely cold so I will leave it with them overnight some time soon to have this checked out.

 

Apparently, this is a well-known issue with the DQ200 gearbox across the VAG brands. This Danish thread has been mentioned before and we have this and this German thread. In the first of those German threads, there is a discussion of a VW TPI 2049048/2 that acknowledges the slipping problem at less than operating temperatures, but there is no solution and the current recommendation in the TPI is to do no repair.

 

Yesterday, I created an account at erWin Skoda to access any TPIs that have been issued for my car. Interestingly, there is a TPI 2050318/2 released 5 March 2018 that acknowledges the slipping problem at less than operating temperatures, but the recommended repair in the Skoda version of the TPI is replacing the clutches, update the software and perform a "basic setting" of the gearbox.

 

Very strange that VW and Skoda have different repair guidelines for what seems to be identical issues...!

[GeneralPurpose]

5 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Terrible that it is Estate Man,

but at the same time good, because being an ex Tech and having had a Engine fail and the car replaced and now the DSG issue he can tell others that he has one of these very very few issues that so often is claimed to be just minor, limited in number and over blown on the internet and not an issue that VW Techs see.

 

Well we are talking a car produced in 2014, and out to the public in 2015 and the UK Warranties are expiring on the first UK cars, 

and Skoda UK will not be able to ignore the issue and pan off customers / owners because thew Manufacturers Warranty has expired.

 

Yes, but remember my engine did not fail, only four engines in 'urop' are known to have failed. Over here none failed but became noisy like mine so I rejected it. Skoda were on the case real quick. No one lost out. Regarding the clutches, it does not seem to be all dq200's that have this problem and those that do are perfectly driveable as it appears. When I did my research only one vehicle at a vw dealership had this issue. They were not reporting lots of unhappy owners with this box, and in spite of what your may read on some forums, dealers are not being overrun with dsg issues, far from it. This is where looking out the actual window comes in to see what's happening on the ground and  not just relying on Google where you can be forgiven for getting a skewed view. Actual numbers over here where cars are affected seem very very low. I'm going to try and gather some further information from my contacts in the trade on numbers affected NOW, to compare with what I found 16 months ago and again last year. As well as a new clutch, I believe I'm getting new software and some other gearbox tweaks too. If anyone has been told a fix cannot yet be applied, not uncommon if a manufacturer is unable to confirm a definitive fix, I suspect when a few cars like mine have had "fixes" applied and success has been confirmed, then they'll be able to get theirs fixed too. It's possible we're at that stage now over here. Understand selected dealerships will already have been working with Skoda to find the problem and fix it. So if fixes have already been unsuccessfully applied it will have helped the overall effort to find the problem and any new work should fix it. I don't see that any MK3 owners will be out of pocket and have never found Skoda to be evasive on any warranty issues. 

[Ootohere]

The point is that in the 2 year & 3 year Manufacturers Warranty they are aware.

They are honouring the warranty.

So as vehicles go out of Manufacturers Warranty they can not wash their hands of faulty DQ200 if the are issues from a Fundamental Design, Manufacturing, Material, Component, Software or Fluids used issues or Quality Control.

 

As they are doing with owners of DQ200's in other vehicles manufactured before 2015 and out of Warranty and with failing Mechatronic Control Units.

These are DQ200 that were not part of the '34F7' Service Campaign or World Wide Recall because they had Mineral Oil from the Factory.

There are still many DQ200 that should have Service Campaign '34H5' that have not had that because the Service Campaign Recall Action is hit or miss.

 

It may be low numbers with the MCU failures, but anyone hit with a £1,700 bill has the right to be a little upset at Skoda CZ's lack of any action while the cars were in warranty, or accepting now that even those with Mineral Oil 2009-2013 can have the issues that required a World Wide Recall and Service Campaign 

in Europe.

As with all things, time will tell just how low the numbers of DQ200 with issues since they were built by Skoda in a Skoda plant.

It is over 2 million DQ200 that they have produced and the number will be low, but we will see as how more common it becomes, 

well just from those that do report on line, use social media etc.   Many many more will not go to forums, just to dealerships and get the brush off.

 

[GeneralPurpose]

I think it's the other way round Awaoffski. Most folks with issues go online to rightly have a moan and see what's going on. That's why forums and social media cause folks to get a skewed view of reality and start to panic. The silent majority don't have issues, if they did, dealers would be overun with this issue and they are not. Folks looking online think the sky is falling in when it's not. But as in this case, it's always useful to hear from folks who have an issue and your contribution is as ever valued.

 

 

[Ootohere]

People are put in touch with me weekly on twincharger issues for advice.   And DSG's,  all I can do is point them in the right direction.  These are owners not online,  just bumping into owners that are, or owners I know.   This is what is so wrong with this, only small numbers.   That is not the case.   As dealerships can well know if their concerns are not just passed off at the service desk stage.    So the fan boys can keep up the happy clappy stuff while others can moan. Or just live in the real world.     Seeing as Skoda is not a major seller in the UK there are many more with VW,s, Audi and SEAT,s having similar issues and failures.

Edited 9 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[GeneralPurpose]

Yeah, me to, on a range of issues including twin charger. But not one dsg issue on any Skoda or VAG car. I'd love exact details of these dsg enquiries you are saying you are getting regarding numbers per week! Just been talking to a SEAT dealership who I know, still no dsg issues clogging up the service dept, only mine at the Skoda dealership, and one at my ex-colleagues VW dealership. That's as of now. Interesting I'm thinking. Of course there are others dotted around but just not seeing them at the moment. Anyhoo, I'll post back once mine has had the fix applied, bye for now.

[Yetiherts]

Had my clutches were replaced 4 months ago on my 1.2 DSG, sorry to say there seems to be another problem with them, going slow in the recent snow the old moaning between 1-2-3 has started again. I am cutting my losses new car due any day now, this time with 5 yrs warranty.  My old car has now been PX'ed the future new owner will have 6 months until the warranty runs out. Happy days!!!

[fabiamc]

I also contacted tvs engineering. For me they responded that their software is not guarenteed fix for slipping issue and advised me to go with skoda because i have warranty.

 

So i will go to dealer with my car then. If you look at tpi skoda announced, there is new part number for clutches and software for dsg has also changed somehow.

 

Edited 10 March, 2018 by fabiamc

[GeneralPurpose]

fabiamc, yes that's what I'd heard about the clutch pack being a new one with new part numbers, and with new software and some other gearbox fettling (don't know what that is yet but I'll find out). Skoda seemed confident that the new fix works, but we'll see. It can take a while to find and fix the issue sometimes and they do carryout a lot of testing and development work to be as sure as possible they are getting it right. After all, it cost huge amounts of money to correct these things.

 

Yetiherts, don't blame you for jumping ship. Confidence gets knocked when faults repeat themselves doesn't it.  Good luck with whatever you are buying. What are you getting?

 

I probably won't be posting back unti mine has had the fix applied so could be a week or two as I don't have a date for the work yet. Take care all.

[GeneralPurpose]

On 08/03/2018 at 16:04, krigl said:

Likely you will get the clutches fitted and it will be ok for some time, then it will slowly start again. 

 

I was told by the TVS dealer, that newer that clutch pack is the worse it will be, the sliping issue. 

 

I hope you will be the lucky one and get it fixed. But on the other hand I am also happy that finally someone that has such a presence on this forum can verify that others are not talking rubbish. 

 

Thanks Krigl, I'll let you know how it goes. If you could keep us up to date about your situation too that would be great.  The one thing I learned over the years as a techie is that you always take notice of what customers are saying about their cars. You never dismiss them out of hand, they know their cars best! But you do have to wade through the over worried owners and the list of normal sometimes undesirable characteristics to get to the bottom of what's going on.  I've noted for some time that dsg customers in small numbers especially in earlier cars had mentioned about clutch slip. But these seemed small in number, and to be frank, over here they are still small in numbers. I have struggled to find anyone with our cars that has this issue so quite ironic that I have the problem now. Even on here in the Fabia section there are only very few of us with the issue from all over, about half a dozen of us. Studies have show that folks with issues go online with the problem and those that don't are few.  But they still have to be fixed. Looks like things are progressing now. If my fix is good, and stays good, it may be a good idea to put your car back to standard and go get the latest new fix from Skoda as it will be free.

Edited 10 March, 2018 by Estate Man

[Sittingbull]

On 09/03/2018 at 16:34, Estate Man said:

Yeah, me to, on a range of issues including twin charger. But not one dsg issue on any Skoda or VAG car. I'd love exact details of these dsg enquiries you are saying you are getting regarding numbers per week! Just been talking to a SEAT dealership who I know, still no dsg issues clogging up the service dept, only mine at the Skoda dealership, and one at my ex-colleagues VW dealership. That's as of now. Interesting I'm thinking. Of course there are others dotted around but just not seeing them at the moment. Anyhoo, I'll post back once mine has had the fix applied, bye for now.

 

I'm one of the folk with the DSG issue on a mk2 Fabia vRS. And I'm one of two such cases currently sitting with the exact same problem within the same Skoda dealership.

 

Both of our cars require new mechatronic units after excessive internal oil leak caused the cars to become undriveable. In both cases, our engines had also been replaced. In both cases, a flashing spanner appears in the MFD, this was taken by Skoda UK and their dealer network to mean the vehicles were due for an inspection service, when in fact the flashing spanner appeared for one reason or another to replace the flashing gear cog that would indicate a transmission problem.

 

Our two cars, which the dealer and Skoda technical are having difficulty with in terms of applying basic settings to the new units, are merely two of at least another 6 recent cases that I know of within the Skoda Fabia mk2 vRS fraternity alone, some are online, others including the other car at the dealership, are not. These recent cases are the tip of the iceberg, as can be verified by a quick look through the thread on the mk2 forum, and again on the mk2 fabia vrs owners facebook page. It is not a case of people simply complaining online, on the facebook page and on here it is real people owning these cars who are reporting these recurring problems with the 7sp DQ200 variant of the DSG.

 

Which brings me on to Skoda UK.

 

Their official position, as relayed direct to me, is that there are no known issues with the aforementioned transmission. This is despite, indeed flying in the face of, their own intervention in several cases where owners have signed up to NDA's in order to prevent brand damage, where Skoda have paid all or most of the cost of the repair. Or, where in cases like mine, the owner has paid £1750 and upwards to correct the failing units. Their inconsistent approach, and inability to silence everyone, means that the truth will out. Their approach on the phone, certainly with me, was to convince me that it was raining when in fact they were urinating down my leg. They appeared to show concern, and "if it's shown to be a mechanical defect or known issue we'll do everything we can to help" lent credibility to that stance. When push came to shove however, they had the temerity to suggest that they would pressure the dealer to offer goodwill. Why on earth would the dealer do this? They only sell and service the vehicles, they don't have any say in the design or manufacture of the vehicles or any of the key constituent components therein.

 

And, for what it's worth, I do know for a fact that this issue also affected Ibiza Cupra and Cupra Bocanegra models. So the problem goes beyond the Skoda brand, and is in fact a VAG wide issue. Or non issue if you're VW.

 

For all that, we love our car, and like the DSG when it's working as it should be, and are looking forward to getting our wee car back.

 

And as an aside, my youngest daughter has just bought a mk3 Fabia 1.4tdi SE with 7sp DSG, and loves the car. So I'm hoping that she doesn't encounter the problems.

[thamestrader]

When this thread started it seemed to me that the original poster was suggesting that there so-called clutch slip was in fact erratic engine rpm which might have confused the gearbox. Have I completely misunderstood the original post if so could somebody give a simple short explanation of how this problem presents itself in normal driving it would be much appreciated. I have read through all 6 pages of this thread two or three times and am completely baffled.  I have to say that so far our 7sp DSG seems to perform identically to our  6 sp  DSG subject to the obvious difference between 110 bhp petrol and 140 bhp diesel.

[krigl]

In short... It started as an assumption that engine is responsible for slipping clutch based on its behavior during these slips, but at end it routed back to actual gearbox... It was a adventure I have taken to search the causes of this, but obviously failed miserably... 

In real life the RPM needle jumps up in steps, while driving speed increases linearly during acceleration.

[GeneralPurpose]

Sittingbull, sorry to hear you have some issues with your car. The Vrs is not one of my favourites regarding it's reliability. I've dealt with some (tracked and fixed problems) on behalf of folks who have them. Only ever one clutch issue that I've come across on a Vrs and that was due to the clutch pack being completely worn out at 120,000 miles, engine also near clapped out too. Couldn't find out if the clutch was the original or not as the car was out of dealership care and being 'home serviced'. 

 

To be fair, at Underwoods we only talked about Mk3 Fabias, not Vrs Mk2 cars. I've never doubted that folks on here that are reporting a clutch issue actually do have an issue. Only the actual number of cars that are misbehaving. Some folks on here seem to believe it's every other car that is faulty and suffering but there is no evidence of that. Far from it. I base that on what my ex-colleagues are telling me in the trade, at VW and SEAT garages and other research that I've done on the inside of the trade where I worked for many years. Forums are also very useful but can often give a 'skewed' view of the situation regarding numbers. It's always been like that. I'm an admin and moderator on a couple of motorcycle industry engineering sites. We get the same thing on there with folks reporting issues that would make anyone think that all the bikes engines out there had an issue. They simply don't.  But regarding the Mk3 fabia, there just doesn't seem to be many in our local region at the moment with a clutch issue. Of course this may change as mileages build. I don't know anyone personally that has the issue on any of their dsg cars and we have a lot of them in our family and group of friends and neighbours. 

 

Regarding your car, Skoda have officially recognised the issue on the Mk3 and have an official new fix for it. This is very recent I believe from about the 5th March (someone correct me if I'm wrong) when a TPI was sent out to dealers. I haven't seen the TPI yet. The fix does I believe involve replacing the clutch pack with a brand new version of the clutch (different part no), new ecu software, and some other gearbox tweaks which I haven't been officially told about so can't comment on what they are or even if they are actually to be carried out. This being the case, it maybe that the Vrs will be included in the same fix, if it isn't already but with different software etc. 

 

krigl, I think you did pretty well with your investigation of the issue. It has helped to rule out the air leak as a problem.

[thamestrader]

On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 07:15, krigl said:

In short... It started as an assumption that engine is responsible for slipping clutch based on its behavior during these slips, but at end it routed back to actual gearbox... It was a adventure I have taken to search the causes of this, but obviously failed miserably... 

In real life the RPM needle jumps up in steps, while driving speed increases linearly during acceleration.

Thanks for the succinct explanation. 

[Ootohere]

Biggest car manufacturing company in the world should really be able to source clutch packs fit for purpose after a decade and get the software and fluids right.

Plenty of failures across the brands and engine types over the years, and Fixes / Patches, while Companies around the world can offer upgrades to Software & hardware before the VW Group.

 

?

Is it really a surprise that people get on forums and the internet to ask or tell their experiences when they are told lies or just panned off at Main Dealerships, 

by the Customer Services, and even told by those in the trade online, no problems, all fixed, the manufacturers will sort you out, 

do not worry you will be looked after.  Nothing to see, just keep on walking...

 

Mk3 Fabia,

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/408368-dsg-clutch-pack 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/424994-dsg 

 

All ok, move along now... Nothing to worry about,  well until you have. 'People only come to forums to gripe!'

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/421639-fabia-dsg-amy-issues 

 

Others,

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/321497-12k-miles-dsg-clutch-pack-failure 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/432920-dsg-dry-clutch-please-help 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/419231-dsg-clutch-failure 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/363360-dsg7-noise-when-changing-gears 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/446595-dsg-boxes-are-they-any-good 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/293145-dsg-issues-or-even-real-problems 

 

Less than 1,800 CAVE engine Fabia sold in the UK & 1,100 CTHE, all with DQ200 DSG.

Then less than 4,000 of the Twincharger 1.4 TSI  sister cars A1 195 ps, Polo GTI & Seat Ibiza.

But many other models with the DQ200, 2009-2015, and on.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-14tsi-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced 

 

 

Edited 15 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Ootohere]

If anyone is interested SKODA UK has a new boss as of the 1st February 2018.   Rod McLeod. 

 Who comes to Skoda with many years experience with VW, so should know all about any issues, and components being sub-standard.

http://carandvanfunding.co.uk/vw-sales-chief-rod-mcleods-to-head-skoda-uk 

 

http://www.media.com/releases/969 

 

The Brand Director that has been in charge for 2 years since Alasdair Stewart left is off to be the Head of VW USA. 

Edited 15 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[GeneralPurpose]

AwaoffSki, you are a pain sometimes mate! Why don't you actually read and understand my posts!