Tyre advice please

[BriskodaJeff]

I'm gutted (absolutely delighted) to have gouged the sidewall of my NSF Pirelli P7. Being a safety-conscious sort of chap (scurrilous chancer)  I've persuaded SWMBO it would be an act of reckless and dangerous stupidity to have one front tyre with 1.5mm more tread than the other, and on that basis both the fronts have to be changed. Obviously I explained that money can't come into it when these little bits of rubber are all that stop me from demolishing the local nursery school / puppy farm in a horrific 18mph aquaplane bloodbath.

 

I do lots of miles, all on major A-roads / motorway, and the conditions in my part of the world don't demand all-season tyres. So can you good people recommend me something quieter than the infernal racket of the OEMs? I run 18's (235/45 R18) on Pegasus wheels as shown below in happier times.

 

 

Sadly the P7s on the back will be staying - at least until I can find the kerb I must have hit and do it again in reverse...

Edited 6 January, 2019 by BriskodaJeff

[Itsrelfy]

I dunno if hankook do anything in the size you need but I’ve always found them very good. Good grip on dry and wet. Quiet and they wear well. 

[freelunch]

Or, you can get the gouged tyre vulcanised in Palermo for €20, um, like I did. 

 

Having said that, I completely concur with your man-maths.

[drewellis]

Dunlop Sportmaxx RTs are by far the quietest, and dry/wet grip is insane. Aqua planing is also almost impossible. The only downside is that they wear weird. The first couple of thousand miles they have to bed in and can be a bit slippy, the “mid life” is incredible and then when they wear down they get louder and slippier again. 

 

I changed my RTs to Michelin PilotSport 4S tyres and these are the nicest (and most expensive) tyres I’ve ever had. They make the car feel 10x more refined, less noise from holes in the road, solid road holding in all conditions, no aqua planing and even through unavoidable deep puddles they feel invincible. Grip under acceleration is amazing too in most conditions. I have them fitted to 19inch wheels on my 220, they aren’t quite as quiet as the Dunlop’s in general (motorways etc) but all the above more than makes up for it 

[ahenners]

Happy with Goodyear F1 AS3 on my Octavia VRS for noise, comfort and performance. Rated at 69db in your size Vs 71db for the P7s.

[SurreyJohn]

I am intrigued by your rejection of all seasons.  I used to stupidly think the same.

 

However did a holiday to Devon (Sidmouth area) at Christmas and they came into their own, amazing wet grip, no slippage climbing lanes with steep hills with rivers of rain pouring along them. Some of the best wet grip during rain that I have had even on the wide 4 and 5 lane sections of M25 (which get surface water when raining).

 

Much prefer the grip (when it’s raining) of the 6 year old Roomster on Bridgestone A005 weather controls, than 6 month old other car on Pirelli Cinturato P7 (which it came with).   As I don’t drive at 140mph the marginal reduction in dry performance is easily outweighed by the much better grip in cold rain.

 

I am now convinced (as I drive both our cars) that the Pirelli are designed for 20-40c (Italian summer temperatures) and not for 5-20c UK temperature as they become hard and not that grippy even when +5c.  The P7 may have a good wet rating in a 25c summer thunderstorm, but in the UK rain is usually a lot colder.

 

Yes, I have become a convert to all seasons, simply because they are so much better in cold rain.  But until we changed one car (and they are currently only on the front) I didn’t realise how much better they would be.  So my advice is get tyres with best cold rain reviews and the A005 are one of the best at this.  There is the bonus of still usable on those handful of snowy / slushy days each year even if rare in South of UK

 

 

Edited 7 January, 2019 by SurreyJohn

[Speedman]

I have 18" wheels and had Hankooks from new and recently replaced the front with the same. The K115 Hankook is one of the quietest according to the ratings.

[penguin17]

Goodyear Efficient Grip Performance.  They are better than their eco naming would suggest and were my ‘go to’ tyre on previous cars. 

 

 I could get 20k miles out of the fronts on a remapped Leon FR ST TDI  and they were never overwhelmed by 230bhp and a big wedge of torque.  

 

Predictable and consistent grip across all weathers and no issues with noise or drone. 

 

I was a disappointed that a R19 version wasn’t available for my fitst Sportline otherwise they would have replaced the stock P7’s in the first few months of ownership. 

 

EDIT:  Similar usage to yours @BriskodaJeff; 25K miles per year, mainly A-road commuting.  Perfect for the job and no issues with outside lane, unavoidable aquaplaning at 70mph.  I also like to change tyres at ~3mm of tread depth so I could have got more miles out of them should I wish to go right to the legal limit. 

 

 

Edited 7 January, 2019 by penguin17

[newbie69]

9 hours ago, SurreyJohn said:

I am intrigued by your rejection of all seasons.  I used to stupidly think the same.

 

However did a holiday to Devon (Sidmouth area) at Christmas and they came into their own, amazing wet grip, no slippage climbing lanes with steep hills with rivers of rain pouring along them. Some of the best wet grip during rain that I have had even on the wide 4 and 5 lane sections of M25 (which get surface water when raining).

 

Much prefer the grip (when it’s raining) of the 6 year old Roomster on Bridgestone A005 weather controls, than 6 month old other car on Pirelli Cinturato P7 (which it came with).   As I don’t drive at 140mph the marginal reduction in dry performance is easily outweighed by the much better grip in cold rain.

 

I am now convinced (as I drive both our cars) that the Pirelli are designed for 20-40c (Italian summer temperatures) and not for 5-20c UK temperature as they become hard and not that grippy even when +5c.  The P7 may have a good wet rating in a 25c summer thunderstorm, but in the UK rain is usually a lot colder.

 

Yes, I have become a convert to all seasons, simply because they are so much better in cold rain.  But until we changed one car (and they are currently only on the front) I didn’t realise how much better they would be.  So my advice is get tyres with best cold rain reviews and the A005 are one of the best at this.  There is the bonus of still usable on those handful of snowy / slushy days each year even if rare in South of UK

 

 

Just a note: The P7 is probably just a really bad summer tire in the wet and assumingly a worse tire than the A005 in that aspect. So far so good. However, the findings of that particular tire should not be used as an indication of "all season" tires vs "Ultra High Performance (UHP) summer tires" performance in wet braking and handling. Every top UHP summer tire (the P7 is not one of them) will out-perform any all-season tire in the rain, be it by a couple of meters or a few car lengths and the lowest braking distances in the wet are always achieved by the top UHP summer tires. I've driven winters, all-seasons, high performance and semi-slick summers and by far, the tire with the most wet grip has been the Pilot Sport 4S (incidentally also the fastest one on the dry minus semi-slicks), it's almost unbelievable how well it grips in the rain - takes several hundreds of km to realize you could practically not even alter your safety distances. And I am not talking 25C Italian rain, rather 5-10C southern Scandinavian rain.

Only pointing this out as the way your post read (to me at least) was as if all-seasons will drive and stop better than a good UHP summer tire in the wet, which is not true. A top summer tire like the Pilot Sport 4/4S, Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 3, Hankook Ventus S1 evo2, SportContact 6 etc. will not just be top on dry but on wet roads too.

Edited 7 January, 2019 by newbie69

[BriskodaJeff]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys - it's really helpful. A couple of follow-ups if I may.

 

@drewellis - the only negative I've seen in reviews of the PS4S (apart from the price of course) is wear-rate. How are yours doing? I do well over 20k miles a year and not really looking to replace whatever I get within 18 months. My car is 190PS FWD and is never driven at the edge of performance (or anywhere near). Are UHP tyres wasted on that kind of driving?

 

Cheers @SurreyJohn - fair point and poor wording on my part. I'm including all-seasons in the analysis but it isn't a deal-breaker for me since I haven't driven more than a handful of miles on untreated / icy surfaces in the past three years. Do you find the A005's noisy? Some of the reviews point this out as noticeable.

 

Thanks @newbie69 - fair point well made re the best UHP versus the best all-season. As with Drew I'd welcome your comments on whether UHP would be wasted given my driving style, mileage etc.

 

Thanks @ahenners. Did your Octy come with the AS3's or did you change to them? I'm leaning towards them at the moment if I go for purely summer tyres, but would love to know what the real world difference from the P7s is.

 

Cheers @Speedman  and @Itsrelfy I was already looking at the Hankooks Evo2, then checked out the K115 too based on noise. But the reviews seem a little underwhelming. Will have another dig based on your recommendation.

 

Interesting @penguin17 - sadly the EfficientGrip Performance doesn't seem to be available in my tyre size.

 

Here's my fag-packet thinking so far, based on a trawl through the black circles and tyrereviews etc websites. Per the labels there isn't a lot between them (and we know the labels aren't a great basis for choice anyway), and reviews seem to veer from "bought them and love them" to "bought them and hate them", with little in the middle, for each tyre.

 

 

Any comments or other tyres I should be considering? In particular, what are the views on all-seasons on the front with summers on the back of a FWD car?

 

[newbie69]

15 minutes ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Thanks @newbie69 - fair point well made re the best UHP versus the best all-season. As with Drew I'd welcome your comments on whether UHP would be wasted given my driving style, mileage etc.

 

I run the 4S in my current car and deeply appreciate them but I wouldn't recommend them for your car nor the type of driving you're doing. Yes they offer exceptional performance and they should be very high up on the list of anyone seeking the utmost traction (for example on a 360bhp/500Nm FWD that struggles to put the power down) under all conditions but they are too expensive and wear rate is merely acceptable. That been said they are not as bad as SportContact 6, these tires are a joke in terms of wear.

 

Ventus S1 and F1 Asymmetric 3 seem to be striking the best value for money in the UHP class. Very good in the dry and the wet (the Goodyear even better iirc from EVO tire test) but at around 3/4 of the price of the Michelin.

[drewellis]

43 minutes ago, BriskodaJeff said:

 

 

@drewellis - the only negative I've seen in reviews of the PS4S (apart from the price of course) is wear-rate. How are yours doing? I do well over 20k miles a year and not really looking to replace whatever I get within 18 months. My car is 190PS FWD and is never driven at the edge of performance (or anywhere near). Are UHP tyres wasted on that kind of driving?

 

Apart from the odd “spirited start” I don’t drive fast or fly round corners like a mad man, I do about 22000 miles a year and often waft along the M6 / M6 Toll at quite a rate. These tyres make the whole experience much more settling. 

From my experience UHP tyres are worth it especially if you spend time on the motorway, because the ride is much more refined in a way I can’t really describe - the car just feels properly “planted”

In terms of wear, I’ve only had them on for about 4 or 5 months and the wear has been even and slow, I’ve had a look and they still look new, but not sure about the actual tread depth left to be honest so can’t give a valid comment. The Dunlops I mentioned earlier wore out rather fast but then they were cheaper.

You could probably get loads of mileage out of the PS4S if you did a wheel rotation once the fronts were down to about 3mm.

 

Some people just buy the cheapest available but since they are literally the only things attaching the car to the earth it’s good to hear that there are others out there that put thought into it! 

Edited 7 January, 2019 by drewellis

[4StringBass]

Changed my P7s for Uniroyal Rainsport 3.  Can't fault them wet or dry.  More grip, less noise, more confidence inspiring   I do have 17" wheels though.

[penguin17]

36 minutes ago, drewellis said:

Some people just buy the cheapest available but since they are literally the only things attaching the car to the earth it’s good to hear that there are others out there that put thought into it! 

Indeed.  At best, spending a few extra quid on quality/proven* tyres is still cheaper than most peoples insurance excess.  At worse, it's not worth thinking about. 

 

*not necessarily the most expensive, a case in point is Pirelli; usually silly money and usually very very mediocre! 

 

 

[ahenners]

@BriskodaJeff No I bought at 3 years old with Continental Sport Contact 5s all round. They definitely seem quieter and more compliant, but one of the main drivers for this was the good reviews plus the fact they are one of the cheapest "premium" brand tyres. They seem to represent the best all round value.

 

[IanJD]

Michelin Premacy 4 are a lot quieter and seem better in the wet than Pirelli P7; haven't had them on long enough to comment on wear but reviews suggest this is good.

 

Many people (me included) are moving towards tyres like Michelin CrossClimate+ because performance under most UK conditions is very similar to summer tyres (within a few percent) but they're massively better in snow and ice -- which we don't get very often in the southern UK (though occurrence may be increasing with climate change), but summer tyres are hopeless for when it does happen. P7s in last winter's snow made me wish I'd got brown leather seats on several occasions -- and yes, I've driven on snow and ice abroad.

 

Yes they're a compromise, but I think a small (probably unnoticeable difference) under most conditions is a price worth paying for much safer driving in snow and ice.

 

P.S. I suspect all-seasons on front and summer on back is absolutely verboten ! Brake in snow and the rear of the car will overtake the front PDQ...

Edited 7 January, 2019 by IanJD

[DBT85]

3 hours ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Any comments or other tyres I should be considering? In particular, what are the views on all-seasons on the front with summers on the back of a FWD car?

 

 

Don't mix and match. All seasons on the front and summers on the back will be great until you try and drive through some light snowy sludge and then your rear end will overtake you at the slightest turn.

 

I live up in Worcester but have to drive to London for work and cover 20k a year, so for the first time ever I went for some winters to get me through just in case I need it.

 

Personally I won't go all season as for 9 months of the year you've a fair compromise in braking distances in both the dry and the wet as @newbie69 alluded to.

 

This video is showing with Winters and Summers, but the exact same thing will happen with all seasons as they are a lot better than summers in snow/ice.

 

Edited 7 January, 2019 by DBT85

[Bap33]

Hi,

I also have Pirelli P7 on my summer wheels (19"). I'm really looking forward they get worn enough so that I can replace them. (Un?)fortunately due to a puncture few weeks ago, I'll have to change the 2 rear ones. Based on my ex Superb MkII Estate experience (also equipped with P7 on 1st mount), I'll get 2 Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (less expessive than PS4S / slower to get worn / and still high quality grip).

I also had the opportunity to drive with Continental ContiSportContact 5 (on another car). They were a good alternative to Michelin PS2 (at that time) for a little less money.

 

Currently driving with my winter wheels (17"), I'm really satisfied with Continental ContiWinterContact TS850P (baught 1 year ago). They were 1st in an ADAC winter tyres comparison test 1 or 2 years ago. If necessary I would change for Michelin Alpin 6 (not available on the market 1 year ago).

 

I feel quite skeptic on All season tyres. As I often heard: "Bad nowhere / But good nowhere too"... I had GoodYear Vector + (4 seasons) on my former Audi A3 Sportback. OMG !!!

Very noisy, and as much grip as a piece of soap on wet roads after 30000 km (~18650 ml)... This is may be why I've some doubts about all-seasons tyres... 

[DBT85]

I have MPS4 on my S2000 and I may well head in that direction when I have to drop these winters as my my RE001s on the 280 were in a poor state. In the 2 weeks between ordering the winters and actually fitting them I managed to get a small bulge in the front left, a tear on the rear left and something else on the front right which was on the inside wall so I didn't even see it till they pulled it off. So 4 new boots for me anyway.

 

I'd not bother personally with the MPS4S for a roadboat doing decent mileage, though the treadwear ratings are 320 for the MPS4 an and 300 MPS4S so not a vast difference. As you can see in the video performance isn't much different between the two in stopping and lap times. The MPS4S handle the track better as it doesn't overheat as fast and is a bit stiffer on the sidewall so sharper on the front end.

 

As standard, Skoda managed to pick a bloody daft size so it's up to 245 or down to 225 I think. Both will go on the rim just fine. I'll look at GF1A3 as well though.

 

Price from tyreleader/camskill. Tyreleader includes postage. Add £15 for Camskill for a set of 4.

 

225/40/19

MPS4 - £154/£147

MPS4S - £172/£162

 

235/40/19

MPS4 - £167/£155

MPS4S £182/£175

 

245/40/19

MPS4 - £155/£147

MPS4S - £157/NA

 

A useful video from TyreReviews comparing the MPS4, MPS4 and the Cup 2. 

 

Edited 8 January, 2019 by DBT85

[neonplanet40]

Another vote for Michelin Pilot Sport 4. I fitted them to mine and love them. 

[penguin17]

9 hours ago, Bap33 said:

 

I feel quite skeptic on All season tyres. As I often heard: "Bad nowhere / But good nowhere too"... I had GoodYear Vector + (4 seasons) on my former Audi A3 Sportback. OMG !!!

Very noisy, and as much grip as a piece of soap on wet roads after 30000 km (~18650 ml)... This is may be why I've some doubts about all-seasons tyres... 

 

 

Maybe that's why GY released the Gen2 of the Vector 4 seasons?  We have a set (Gen 2) on my wifes mk4 Golf GTI and they are pretty damn good TBH.  We've even had the chance to try them in some snow and they performed faultlessly, even when a couple of  4x4's SUV's (likely on Summer rubber) were struggling to move and keep moving. Both wet and dry grip is very good and there's no tyre drone from them at all.  Even in a 15 year old car they are very smooth.  I don't think I've read a single review where they aren't called out as being extremely quiet and compliant, even when rated against Summer tyres.    

 

I also use Vredestein Quatrac 5's on my 280 and they've been very impressive to date, across a range of roads and weather conditions.  In fact the only tyre I would consider swapping them for would be the PS4S, just to increase the fun factor of the 280 BUT my only concern would be losing the Winter ability of the Quatrac 5 and returning to running two sets of wheels/tyres.  I'll even go as far as to say that you'd likely only notice any compromise in outright Summer/Winter performance when driving on the very limit or in extreme weathers. 

 

In my experience both the GY Vectors and Quatrac 5's can hold their own against all but the very best dedicated Winter and Summer tyres without having to even undo a wheel nut when the seasons change.  

 

Just adding some contrast to your rating and experience of all-season tyres.  It's such a shame that people often slate them and put others off  trying them, based on experience of much older designs or just buying a really crap set, which you can do with any seasonal rating of tyre.  

Edited 8 January, 2019 by penguin17

[BriskodaJeff]

Thanks all. This has been incredibly helpful to me. I've now made a decision and two Michelin PilotSport 4 tyres will be fitted to the front of my car on Thursday morning. I thought it might be helpful to others in the same position to show the thought process that got me here.

 

First, I'm only replacing two tyres and the sensible comments on here about overtaking myself as the back summer tyres let go answered the all-seasons question. If I were replacing all four I would certainly be considering all-seasons, and would likely have found a friend or colleague who already has them and gone for a drive to see how they are.

 

That left me with a three-way fight. The advantage I had is that any of the three will almost certainly be significantly better than the P7s they are replacing. So I looked in more detail at the Goodyear Asymmetric 3, Michelin Primacy4 and Michelin PilotSport 4S. Thanks to advice on here and to my own driving history, I determined that my car and driving style really don't warrant a UHP tyre (only 190PS and I've never even slipped the fronts using P7s). That changed the trio and I replaced the PS4S with PS4 as the third candidate.

 

Reviews on-line are pretty much the same across all three, with the PS4 slightly edging it (though there aren't so many PS4 reviews - I suspect just because they are more expensive and therefore fewer get sold). I also listened to the personal experiences of the good folk on here. I was really drawn to the AS3 due to the lower noise rating, but at the end of the day I'm a cautious sort and the final decision was about grip rather than noise. On that basis, the Primacy dropped out of the equation because the PS4 seems to outperform it both in wet and dry.

 

I'll do a follow-up once they are on and scrubbed in to let you know how I am getting on with them. In the meantime, thanks again for the discussion and advice.

[Russ77]

I'm a little confused by the "conditions in my part of the world don't demand all-season tyres"........

 

I wasn't aware that Bristol was part of a sub-tropical paradise scheme akin to a Centre Parcs' tropical dome? 

 

Admittedly it may not snow very often but that's not really the point.  I live in Essex, temperatures are generally higher than most parts of the country, snow events are fairly rare and I'm about 2 miles from the two driest parts of the UK.

 

However that doesn't stop the temperature from regularly dropping below 7c during the autumn/winter/spring months and this is when "summer" and "normal" tyres start to struggle as the compounds they're made from aren't designed to be at their best at low temperatures.

 

I fitted Michelin CrossClimates all round in April and they're by far the best tyres I've run on.  Reasonably quiet, decent wet & dry grip, certainly no compromises there that you'd notice unless you made a habit of driving like a hooligan.  The biggest thing for me is that there's no drop off in performance when the temperature drops.  Yes they are a little more expensive but they seem to be wearing really well and you are also covered if there's the odd sprinkling of the white stuff

[BriskodaJeff]

14 minutes ago, Russ77 said:

I'm a little confused by the "conditions in my part of the world don't demand all-season tyres"........

 

Fair comment Russ, and my original post was badly worded. I wanted views on all appropriate tyres, not just all-seasons. The reason I eventually discounted all seasons (I looked at the Crossclimate+ as part of my original analysis) was that I am only replacing two tyres. If it were all four then the CrossClimate+ would certainly have been on the list.

[DBT85]

2 hours ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Thanks all. This has been incredibly helpful to me. I've now made a decision and two Michelin PilotSport 4 tyres will be fitted to the front of my car on Thursday morning. I thought it might be helpful to others in the same position to show the thought process that got me here.

 

 

Afore ye go.

 

How old are the rears? If they are part worn then typically you'd put the new tyres on the rear and move the rears to the front. It basically helps prevent the same issue I mentioned earlier happening in the wet. Its less of an issue with things like ESC but still something to be conscious of.