MOT Fail

[nta16]

Our very local MoT, or one tester I saw at least, has all the lights on including fogs and hazards whilst checking the underside with the car in the air, when I asked him not to do it on my neighbour's car which was next in line the tester said it was Ok because he left the engine running!

 

By coincidence another neighbour had a fail the year before from this place on front sidelight bulb, Covid, you had to leave the car with them, we had checked all the lights the day before.  Obviously you can't say a bulb couldn't blow in the meantime and the spare bulbs my neighbour kept at home instead of with the car.  They also found a lot of advisory work.

 

This year the same neighbour took the car back there for a service and get the advisory work done and MoT, less surprisingly it passes this time but they tell her there's something wrong with the gearbox that neds sorting, I'm not sure if they wanted that work or not, but there was nothing wrong with the gearbox luckily another neighbour has a good scan tool and car repair experience.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

11 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Our very local MoT, or one tester I saw at least, has all the lights on including fogs and hazards whilst checking the underside with the car in the air, when I asked him not to do it on my neighbour's car which was next in line the tester said it was Ok because he left the engine running!

What do you see as the problem with doing that?

Are you thinking the alternator will not be able to supply enough current to meet this load? 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

Have to say, if a car can't cope with all the lights being on, whilst the engine is running, then it probably shouldn't be on the road.

That is after all it's default state on the road, which could include them all being on.

[StevesTruck]

My guess, and it is only an unqualified guess would be that they leave an electrical load on as a matter of course so cars with Stop-Start assist don't turn themselves off while they're in the air. You need the engine running to look for leaks in the exhaust system. 

 

The other reason they want the car running throughout is to make sure it's warmed up for the emissions test.

[nta16]

1 minute ago, Wino said:

What do you see as the problem with doing that?

Are you thinking the alternator will not be able to supply enough current to meet this load? 

 

I see it as a way to waste fuel if nothing else.  These are old cars so I suppose you could say it's a more thorough test of them or hoping perhaps a bulb goes which would be a fail.  I wasn't worried at all as the battery was good and would have coped well for a good while by itself let alone the alternator I just didn't like the practice but the car was booked in and not my car to cancel I was only asked to take it in as a favour.

 

I've not heard of anywhere else doing it, in fact the next day I was waiting near the MoT of another garage and it wasn't done there and I can't remember reading that this is test procedure..

 

Not brilliant for the tester either as I can't remember seeing any exhaust extraction on the car or a test probe as it was 6 foot in the air, full height doors were open full width though.

 

The tester was very though indeed, can't moan about that found a tiny split in the small ARB drop link that I'd have never been able to see let alone find and a load of advisories, including three tyres with cracks two of which they'd fitted at most only 3 years before and less than 1,000 miles on them.  The other tyre might have been one of theirs too.  The good tyre was formerly the spare which I swapped on to the car a few of years ago dated 2009 and loos very good, only the date stamp tells it's age.

 

[nta16]

11 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Have to say, if a car can't cope with all the lights being on, whilst the engine is running, then it probably shouldn't be on the road.

That is after all it's default state on the road, which could include them all being on.

All the lights fog and and hazards.  As I put I wasn't worried about them all being on just the reason for it and if it's such a good idea why isn't it part of the test - perhaps it should be.

 

I forgot he also put an advisory for the side repeaters which I'm not moaning about one I had notice whilst testing and had mentioned to my neighbour but they weren't readily available in time and I thought it might not even be noticed as an advisory.  It wasn't my car it was nothing to me whether it passed or failed and I and my neighbour would prefer any faults to be brought to attention.

 

[Ootohere]

3 year old tyres with only 1,000 miles on them certainly deserve a good thorough inspection.

 

Actually all cars need them.

Maybe people do not have cars serviced or maintained by them or anyone else from one MOT inspection to the next.

Actually many have no servicing, maintenance or an inspection in the UK from the car leaving the factory / PDI if they are even checked properly at a PDI.

Too many cars are on the road for 3 years until the first MOT with wonky headlights, or go about with bad / damaged tyres.

[nta16]

21 minutes ago, StevesTruck said:

My guess, and it is only an unqualified guess would be that they leave an electrical load on as a matter of course so cars with Stop-Start assist don't turn themselves off while they're in the air. You need the engine running to look for leaks in the exhaust system. 

This was on a 2005 very obviously without start stop.

 

I can't say for certain as I was inside and then had to walk around outside as my back was playing up but it seemed the all lights including hazards were on from when I first saw the car which was on the ground then so I thought perhaps having its headlight aim checked I wasn't paying attention just walking by at that point.  I didn't realise there was only one tester and MoT bay in use at the time.

 

30 minutes ago, StevesTruck said:

The other reason they want the car running throughout is to make sure it's warmed up for the emissions test.

Fair enough but after that part of the test has been done.  I passed again about 45 minutes later and saw all the lights including hazards were still on the car was off the lift, I didn't notice if it was running or not, I had to nip home as my neighbours car was still waiting and it was 30-45 minutes after the booked time so I got a small quick job in at home as I knew I'd be running late now.

 

[sepulchrave]

They leave them running to keep the cat lit, it gives them the best chance of passing the emissions test.

[nta16]

10 minutes ago, roottoot said:

3 year old tyres with only 1,000 miles on them certainly deserve a good thorough inspection.

Yes totally agree it was just that the same place sold and fitted these tyres to the car, that's one of the main parts of the business.  The car is 16 years old now with only just got to 28k-miles, it's never been a high annual mileage car and he's not one to ask for the cheapest rubbish the garage can lay their hands on.  I thought the tyres must have come from his son's mate's tyre place as that guy I'd not trust as far as I could kick him, cheap Chinese tyres of a totally unknown brand.  The place knows the car an that the owner is elderly.

 

18 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Actually many have no servicing, maintenance or an inspection in the UK from the car leaving the factory / PDI if they are even checked properly at a PDI.

Too many cars are on the road for 3 years until the first MOT with wonky headlights, or go about with bad / damaged tyres.

Yeap, totally agree.  plus cars  "Historic" cars don't need an MoT.

 

And as I try to explain to other an MoT is only one, trained, person's opinion of the condition of the vehicle at only that moment in time to meet a minimum statutory standard it doesn't mean the car is as good as it could or should be or that it wouldn't fail the same test moments later.

 

When I suggest having the test done months early to shift it to a better time of year and not worry about losing a number of months on the current certificate people think I'm mad as "it's not due".

 

I'm all for a firm but fair MoT testing but many of these places use it to drum up premature and unnecessary business or even straight out con people a different of opinion is one thing but inventing thigs is another.

 

[nta16]

2 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

They leave them running to keep the cat lit, it gives them the best chance of passing the emissions test.

Again that's fair enough but why after that, I can't say I saw when the emission was done but I don't think it was at the end of the test.

 

I drove my neighbour's car around before the test to fully warm it and to give it another road testing before taking it in, I got there 5-10 minutes early to allow for booking-in and show the car was there on time ready.  It was a good while after this when I had to go outside to walk they came outside to apologised for the delay and said my neighbour's car was next, didn't mention there was only one MoT bay in use though and that the MoT on the other hadn't long started, they knew I said I'd wait and the car was from literally around the corner.

 

[sepulchrave]

Each MOT tester has their own process, why does it matter to you what that process is?

[Phil866]

As long as the appropriate checks in the MOT Inspection manual are completed it doesn't matter how, unless directed by the manual.

It's an interesting read! 🤓

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles

[nta16]

Obviously it's just me then.  Not a life or death worry for me.

 

 

On 16/12/2021 at 16:10, Phil866 said:

It's an interesting read! 🤓

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles

You used to be able to get to the actual testers book, the procedure but I've lost the link or it's been closed off now as I've not ben able to find it for a while, they used to have separate updates to the test as well which was useful and saved searching for changes.

 

Phil866, sorry I've only just noticed you have a '77 Spitfire (I used to have a '73 GT6 Mk3) you probably saw earlier this year(/ or was it last) the change to headlight regs so that LED bulbs and units combined upgrades were excluded (or in included as an exclusion depending which way you're facing.)

 

Edited 17 December, 2021 by nta16

[J.R.]

On 16/12/2021 at 12:47, nta16 said:

This year the same neighbour took the car back there for a service and get the advisory work done and MoT, less surprisingly it passes this time but they tell her there's something wrong with the gearbox that neds sorting, I'm not sure if they wanted that work or not, but there was nothing wrong with the gearbox luckily another neighbour has a good scan tool and car repair experience.

 

How do you think that a scan tool would refute "something" wrong with the gearbox on a 16 year old vehicle?

 

There may have seemed to be nothing wrong with the gearbox function if you drove it but as it is not a testable item the "something" will probably have been an oil leak or an observation of a failing mounting, both of which could cause a lot of expense if not corrected.

 

Advisories on MOT tests should be investigated and actioned if they are going to cause problems and not dismissed, many will not of course but are there to cover them should something occur.

[Phil866]

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

 

Phil866, sorry I've only just noticed you have a '77 Spitfire (I used to have a '73 GT6 Mk3) you probably saw earlier this year(/ or was it last) the change to headlight regs so that LED bulbs and units combined upgrades were excluded (or in included as an exclusion depending which way you're facing.)

 

Yes, the rules changed in March this year and the manual now states 

'Existing halogen headlamp units on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs.'

But I won't be upgrading the old Spitfire bless it 🥰

[KenONeill]

37 minutes ago, Phil866 said:

But I won't be upgrading the old Spitfire bless it

Knowing British Laylow  fitting QI bulbs to replace the standard tungsten ones would be a major upgrade.

[Phil866]

1 minute ago, KenONeill said:

Knowing British Laylow  fitting QI bulbs to replace the standard tungsten ones would be a major upgrade.

I did upgrade to halogen headlight units about 15yrs ago when the sealed beam units (remember those beauties??) became hard to find and expensive. 🙂 

[nta16]

11 hours ago, J.R. said:

How do you think that a scan tool would refute "something" wrong with the gearbox on a 16 year old vehicle?

You have taken the word something too literally, I used that word not the garage.  The electronics that control it are inside the gearbox, you can monitor and even control it with the scan tool - notice I answer your questions even if you don't give answers when I ask you.

 

 

11 hours ago, J.R. said:

Advisories on MOT tests should be investigated and actioned if they are going to cause problems and not dismissed, many will not of course but are there to cover them should something occur.

No advisories were dismissed, the reason the car was took there was to service it and deal with the advisories from the previous MoT, it is not my car, I suggested previously what should be done and even passed on a card for another garage that others had found to be good and trustworthy, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

 

The gearbox "fault" wasn't part of the MoT or an advisory it was something said by the garage as part of their servicing, the neighbour could find no one that wanted to deal with the "fault" as all said the manufacture had to deal with it so a diagnostic test was booked in at £174  which would be put towards the repair cost if the work was accepted,  Sending the unit off independently meant getting it out of the box sending it away for assessment and repair, repair being around £280 IIRC and then reinstall, with obviously the vehicle out of action all the time and the risk the unit couldn't be repaired.

 

So with that it was worth trying a throttle reset and scan and road test with live data or suggesting another way to use the box to get around the "fault" with the "fault" being unclear as the garage description and what my neighbour thought was wrong were two different things.

 

There wasn't a fault to find, the car has ben happily driven ever since whereas before it also seemed my neighbour was driving in limp mode - you must understand that not everyone knows or cares about cars and just want to drive them with the minimum of fuss which can often leave them open to opportunists.

 

[nta16]

1 hour ago, Phil866 said:

I did upgrade to halogen headlight units about 15yrs ago when the sealed beam units (remember those beauties??) became hard to find and expensive. 🙂 

Well expensive was relative at the time, I remember looking at sealed beams about 12-14 years ago and they were £8 each like the ones I'd bought 10-15 years before but II see now the sealed beams are £13.75 each so in real terms a lot cheaper than when the cars were new, but I've no idea to the quality now.

 

When I got my Triumph I was surprised about the availability of parts compared with MG especially considering many parts are the same apart from their part number codes.  I sometimes by from Mini suppliers as they seem to have lower overheads and sell exactly the same parts at lower prices and because Minis are so popular they also sometimes often better made parts than the usual ****-poor quality parts from all over the world.

 

I went to H4 with the later flat lens units which were supposed to give a better light pattern and the lights are still good now but do sometimes seem a bit yellow compared to some of the modern cars but then so do the headlights on my wife's Mk3 Fabia.

 

[Phil866]

36 minutes ago, nta16 said:

 

When I got my Triumph I was surprised about the availability of parts compared with MG especially considering many parts are the same apart from their part number codes.  I sometimes by from Mini suppliers as they seem to have lower overheads and sell exactly the same parts at lower prices and because Minis are so popular they also sometimes often better made parts than the usual ****-poor quality parts from all over the world.

 

 

Off topic now but I'm lucky that Rimmer Brothers are just up the road from me, expensive but knowledgeable and usually in stock. Most oem parts are like gold dust and 'County' make pistons, bearings etc are made in India. I found AE pistons and bearings when I rebuilt my 1500 unit 12 yrs ago and they are still going strong!

[nta16]

OP was sorted a good while back.

 

Rimmer Bros I use occasionally and I found one of their telephone salesman to be openly honest when I asked about the quality of the steering rack gaiters as a previous set, not from them, only lasted 6 months of light winter use.  Later Midgets use the Triumph style rack, I check before buying a new Argentinian made rack but it was still different from original, and poor quality boots.

 

Toss I've found to have a system of management and directors that seems to require some (all?) staff to flat out lie rather than admit a mistake.

 

All main and most smaller general parts suppliers have good, bad and very bad parts they continue to sell.

 

For the Triumph as I live fairly close I used to go to TSSC at Lubenham, had bits off Canley and a few other places I forget now but as I'm not very mechanical it's never anything like internal engine parts (except HG).  A few years later I discovered that a friend of a friend actually works on the cars at the TSSC HQ and he confirmed what I already knew about one of the club's favoured members and their garage.  I never done anything that I can remember with the local club as they didn't seem to actually drive their cars with their main event being a camping weekend at a park 3 miles from where I live, the one opposite the sewage treatment works and next to a busy trunk dual-carriageway, it didn't appeal to me. 😄

 

[Phil866]

24 minutes ago, nta16 said:

 

For the Triumph as I live fairly close I used to go to TSSC at Lubenham, had bits off Canley and a few other places I forget now but as I'm not very mechanical it's never anything like internal engine parts (except HG).  A few years later I discovered that a friend of a friend actually works on the cars at the TSSC HQ and he confirmed what I already knew about one of the club's favoured members and their garage.  I never done anything that I can remember with the local club as they didn't seem to actually drive their cars with their main event being a camping weekend at a park 3 miles from where I live, the one opposite the sewage treatment works and next to a busy trunk dual-carriageway, it didn't appeal to me. 😄

 

I let my TSSC membership lapse when their website forum was offline for months on end about 10 yrs ago now. Glad I never partook in the sewage farm/dual carriageway jolly though but a lot of their parts were very good value at the time. I fitted Koni shocks all round from the club shop. Club Triumph always seemed more fun to me 😁.  

[nta16]

31 minutes ago, Phil866 said:

lot of their parts were very good value at the time

I thought the availability was lower but prices higher than I was used to with MG but now you can shop around so much.  I don't mind paying a bit more as the likes of the main parts suppliers stock tens of thousands of the parts needed and to even individual sales volume for fixings.  MGOC, Moss, Mini Spares, Minimine and some others (Canley?) have parts made so deserve some support for that only.

 

In the early days of me driving over to the MGOC HQ and shop at Swavesey, about 25+ years ago when the A14 wasn't so busy, I bought two small short L-shaped hoses for the carbs at IIRC £2.45 each and when I got home I found instead of the L--shaped formed hose they were just off-cuts of 1/4" hose, a length of which I already had spare in the shed.  I did think that was bad as it was stocked under the BL part number and issued as such, at that time I couldn't be bothered arguing about it or posting back I just took it as the cost of experience, so began that part of the learning process.  😄

 

Edited 18 December, 2021 by nta16

[Phil866]

4 minutes ago, nta16 said:

 

In the early days of me driving over to the MGOC HQ and shop at Swavesey, about 25+ years ago when the A14 wasn't so busy, I bought two small short L-shaped hoses for the carbs at IIRC £2.45 each and when I got home I found instead of the L--shaped formed hose they were just off-cuts of 1/4" hose, a length of which I already had spare in the shed.  I did think that was bad as it was stocked under the BL part number and issued as such, at that time I couldn't be bothered arguing about it or posting back I just took it as the cost of experience, so began that part of the learning process.  😄

 

The later MG Midget was powered by the Triumph 1500 engine, single rail gearbox and J type overdrive so I found I could buy parts for those cheaper from the MGB Hive near Wisbech. The body panel presses were bought by Heritage when BL sold them off so they are not really in short supply , but you do have to wait until Heritage have enough backorders to make pressing them worthwhile. I've been waiting for a new boot floor for years now. 🤐  I'll buy and MGB project car one day.....