TMC traffic events no longer being received...firmware update required?

[Hillbilly23]

6 minutes ago, Arthur124 said:

 

Excellently describes the issue.

Fingers crossed the issue will be investigated and resolved soon.

 

Edited 12 May, 2023 by Hillbilly23

[Hillbilly23]

I sent a similar Email to GB News in the hope that they would take it up but have had no reply yet.

[Danoid]

I’m having a call with a Skoda executive on Monday about something else but I’ll mention this too and see what they say

[Hillbilly23]

Round and around we go.😡 Just received this reply from Audi.-

 

Dear Mr. Powell. We hope this email finds you well. We have received an update from our technical department.   Kindly be informed that your inquiry, is something out of the scope of our department. In order to receive further clarifications on this issue, please feel free to contact your preferred Audi Service Partner. We appreciate your understanding. Please do not hesitate to contact us in the future for any additional information you may require.   We are available 24/7 and you can reach us either by calling the phone number 0800-2792884 or by replying to this email. We kindly ask that you indicate your case number 0001881944, for a quick follow-up. We wish you safe journeys with your Audi.

Kind regards, Konstantinos Audi Digital Services Team Phone  0800 279 2884

[Hillbilly23]

Have replied as  follows -

 

Dear Mr Constantinos.

                                         I am confused by your reply. I appreciate that this problem is not something that your Digital Support Team can deal with if that is what you mean. If you mean that your technical department cannot assist then I find that hard to believe. Once more I am being urged to contact a main dealer, a path that I have already explained is pointless as many that have this same problem have already tried this and found that they do not know how to fix it. Surely someone at Audi knows that the MMI and MIB units were set up to receive RDS-TMC over FM radio via the Trafficmaster service which now been turned off. The traffic information is now sent over FM radio via INRIX which has been tested and is working just fine. The problem lies in that the units mentioned cannot receive the INRIX traffic data and this is the root of the problem. One very clever forum member managed to get his RNSE unit to receive the INRIX traffic data. But because Trafficmaster used different location tables which are contained in the map SD Cards than INRIX the messages he received on his INFO button page were not correct. This is not a problem that a main dealer can fix and I find it inconceivable that I and many others keep being sent around in circles with no apparent real interest by anyone to accept that this is a MAJOR problem for VW group and other manufacturer car owners. The obvious solution is to get the Trafficmaster data reinstated somehow or to get this data sent via INRIX in Trafficmaster form. This would reinstate the Dynamic Navigation facility on the MMI and MIB units. I will repeat that this is not an isolated problem with my car and that a main dealer cannot reinstate the Dynamic Navigation which is only not working in the UK.

 

Kind regards - Neil.

[Hillbilly23]

I have just Emailed BBC Watchdog maybe they will run the story.

[NigelR99]

I tried watchdog a couple of weeks ago without even a response that they had received it, Autotrader did get back to me but nothing done  It is as if no one cares. 

What about trading standards? We have been sold somthing that is now not working as described!   Can someone else try that as I still have Covid 10 days in. 

[pcbbc]

@Hillbilly23

Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible for INRIX to transmit TrafficMaster data. Firstly they don’t own or have access to the TrafficMaster location tables. Secondly a TMC service consumes virtually all of the spare RDS bandwidth, so transmitting duplicate data would degrade their own service, and third I don’t believe it’s even possible to broadcast multiple TMC tables on the same FM frequency. So in order to do that, while at the same time maintaining their own service on Classic, they’d need to use a different FM station, most logically Capital and/or Heart which have now been vacated by TrafficMaster.

 

I don’t know how Trafficmaster licensed their service, and if there was a yearly fee charged of VAG. I imagine there would have been. So either the manufacturers (including VAG) need to stump up some more money and TrafficMaster might be persuaded to resume their service. Or, for systems still receiving map updates, the manufacturers need to contract with INRIX and to issue an update which includes the INRIX location tables.

[Hillbilly23]

2 minutes ago, pcbbc said:

@Hillbilly23

Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible for INRIX to transmit TrafficMaster data. Firstly they don’t own or have access to the TrafficMaster location tables. Secondly a TMC service consumes virtually all of the spare RDS bandwidth, so transmitting duplicate data would degrade their own service, and third I don’t believe it’s even possible to broadcast multiple TMC tables on the same FM frequency. So in order to do that, while at the same time maintaining their own service on Classic, they’d need to use a different FM station, most logically Capital and/or Heart which have now been vacated by TrafficMaster.

 

I don’t know how Trafficmaster licensed their service, and if there was a yearly fee charged of VAG. I imagine there would have been. So either the manufacturers (including VAG) need to stump up some more money and TrafficMaster might be persuaded to resume their service. Or, for systems still receiving map updates, the manufacturers need to contract with INRIX and to issue an update which includes the INRIX location tables.

This is what I have been telling my Audi contact but it is falling on deaf ears and I keep getting asked to see a main dealer. I have explained several times that the main dealer cannot fix the issue. They now say it is out of the scope of their Technical Department so if they don't know how or where the Dynamic Navigation info is sent from then it seems they just will not accept that there is a problem. Someone must make the maps for them so surely that should be Audi's first step to a solution.

[pcbbc]

5 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Someone must make the maps for them so surely that should be Audi's first step to a solution.

At least for Audi and Seats RNSE system maps were produced by Here.

https://www.here.com

They were owned by Nokia at one point, but were bought by a consortium of the German auto makers (VAG , BMW and Benz).

If you contact Here I expect them to at least know what you are talking about as they have developer documentation on their site about RMC.

https://developer.here.com/documentation/traffic/dev_guide/topics/filtering-tmc-tables.html

[Danoid]

Just thought another alternative is for us to register “interest” in a second hand car at a dealer

 

Go for a test drive but say “it’s got a problem with the TMC not working, if you can get it fixed let me know” 😀

[Hillbilly23]

30 minutes ago, pcbbc said:

At least for Audi and Seats RNSE system maps were produced by Here.

https://www.here.com

They were owned by Nokia at one point, but were bought by a consortium of the German auto makers (VAG , BMW and Benz).

If you contact Here I expect them to at least know what you are talking about as they have developer documentation on their site about RMC.

https://developer.here.com/documentation/traffic/dev_guide/topics/filtering-tmc-tables.html

Have mailed them so lets see if they are aware of it.

[Hillbilly23]

Latest reply from Audi. Looks like we are all stuffed as they will not do a deal with INRIX which we all know will sort the problem😡

 

Dear Mr. Powell,   We hope this e-mail finds you well.   First and foremost we would like to apologize for any inconvenience caused from this issue.                                   We kindly inform you that this service is not provided for your vehicle, because for this model, the service is not available.   Kindly be informed that our department works as a mediator between the technical department and yourself, as an Audi customer. We are here to support and provide you with the troubleshooting steps in order to resolve any possible issues related to the digital aspect of your vehicle. However, when the troubleshooting steps as not enough to resolve the issues that you are facing, the case needs to be escalated to our technical department, where our expert team is working hard to investigate and resolve them. Whenever the technical department achieves a potential fix of an issue, the case returns to our hands, in order for us to contact you with the instructions from our technical department. We, as a department, do not have any kind of authorization or information regarding the actions the technical department performed or the tools they used in order to rectify your issue, since it is not within our scope of expertise. Therefore, we kindly inform you that this service is not provided for your vehicle, because for this model, the service is not available.   We apologize once again for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your extensive patience and cooperation on this matter. Please, do not hesitate to contact us for any assistance you may need. We are available 24/7 and can be reached either by calling 0800 2792884, or by replying to this email. We kindly ask that you indicate your case reference 0001881944, for a quick follow-up. We wish you safe journeys in your Audi.

Kind regards, Katerina P. Audi Digital Services Team Phone  0800 279 2884 Email    *****@*****.tld

[joek666]

1 hour ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Latest reply from Audi. Looks like we are all stuffed as they will not do a deal with INRIX which we all know will sort the problem😡

 

 

I don't think their response suggests they won't/can't resolve the issue, just that the team you're in contact with isn't capable of doing so. 

 

I am quite sure there are technically-focused people at VAG that would understand this issue and be able to come up with a solution to resolve it, the tricky part is getting the intermediaries to take the issue seriously and escalate it appropriately. 

 

My latest response from Skoda UK is that they have, "...escalated your concerns to our Case Management team, who will review, all the information, and then contact you, however this will take 72 working hours (This does not include weekends and bank holidays)."

[Hillbilly23]

1 hour ago, joek666 said:

 

I don't think their response suggests they won't/can't resolve the issue, just that the team you're in contact with isn't capable of doing so. 

 

I am quite sure there are technically-focused people at VAG that would understand this issue and be able to come up with a solution to resolve it, the tricky part is getting the intermediaries to take the issue seriously and escalate it appropriately. 

 

My latest response from Skoda UK is that they have, "...escalated your concerns to our Case Management team, who will review, all the information, and then contact you, however this will take 72 working hours (This does not include weekends and bank holidays)."

Maybe there is still hope then. I agree with you but I am just fed up of going around in circles with them. They say there is no solution for my car but there are much newer cars with exactly the same problem which is simply being unable to react to the INRIX data feed over FM radio. It seems to me that the firmware needs a tweak and new maps need to include INRIX location tables making. I saw a post on here where someone altered their firmware to receive INRIX  and got the messages back. Sadly because their maps had Trafficmaster tables it gave incorrect information so it can be done if the maps contain the INRIX tables. 

[pcbbc]

10 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

It seems to me that the firmware needs a tweak and new maps need to include INRIX location tables making. I saw a post on here where someone altered their firmware to receive INRIX  and got the messages back. Sadly because their maps had Trafficmaster tables it gave incorrect information so it can be done if the maps contain the INRIX tables. 

I did indeed tweak the firmware, but only because that was the quickest way for me to test INRIX without having to rewrite the map data. For VAG it’s just a matter of licencing with INRIX and including the tables and necessary configuration with a map update. No firmware changes should be required.

 

Although when I say “just” I think there might be quite a bit of work mapping the location tables onto the map, and of course the expense of the contract with INRIX. And of course this doesn’t help if maps are no longer produced for legacy systems (such as Audi RNSE) as VAG are not going to roll a new map update for a discontinued platform.

Edited 13 May, 2023 by pcbbc

[Hillbilly23]

1 minute ago, pcbbc said:

I did indeed tweak the firmware, but only because that was the quickest way for me to test INRIX without having to rewrite the map data. For VAG it’s just a matter of licencing with INRIX and including the tables and necessary configuration with a map update. No firmware changes should be required.

 

Although when I say “just” I thin there t might be quite a bit of work mapping the location tables onto the map, and of course the expense of the contract with INRIX. And of course this doesn’t help if maps are no longer produced for legacy systems (such as Audi RNSE) as VAG are not going to roll a new map update for a discontinued platform.

I think they are well aware of the solution but don't want to spend any money on it even though it means thousands of owners being left without a fully functioning navigation unit.

[bigade1]

2 hours ago, pcbbc said:

No firmware changes should be required.

 

I think a firmware update would definitely be required. TMC in the UK is a subscription service. While I agree the TMC tables and TMC provider details can be adapted in the map data it's my understanding from googling around that you also need a service encryption key to access the data and I also read somewhere that the key changes every day. Since the TMC provider only licences the individual receiver and not the map it's my understanding that the service encryption keys are embedded in the firmware of each individual navigation unit. Here's a quote from the actual TmcProviders.xml which is contained inside the map:

 

<!-- Attention Service Keys are scrambled in TmcEncryptionManager -->

 

I can't find any TmcEncryptionManager anywhere inside the map so logically it must reside in the firmware and this would make sense.

 

 

[pcbbc]

56 minutes ago, bigade1 said:

I think a firmware update would definitely be required. TMC in the UK is a subscription service.

From INRIX’s own Ofcom ASL Application…

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/104743/application-inrix-uk.pdf

Service Encryption
The ISO standard (ISO14819) covering the definition of RDS-TMC, in part 6, allows for a service to be encrypted. Encryption is normally used to allow a service provider to use a publicly available location table and protect access to the data being provided through the use of a “service key.”
The INRIX Service in not encrypted. It is sent technically as a “free-to air” service, instead the INRIX Service utilises a proprietary location table and thus encryption is not required. Devices that wish to receive the INRIX service must be integrated with the INRIX Location Table to be able to decode the Location codes, this table is provided to contracted OEMs and device makers to integrate into their receivers.

 

 

[Hillbilly23]

Does anyone know who actually uses the INRIX service that is broadcast at the moment? Seems a bit pointless to broadcast a service that people do not or can not access.

[pcbbc]

1 hour ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Does anyone know who actually uses the INRIX service that is broadcast at the moment? Seems a bit pointless to broadcast a service that people do not or can not access.

Well they renewed their licence for another 9 years just last year, and the licence application fee alone was a non-refundable £20,000. And for their previous licence, which expired in 2022, they were apparently paying £200,000 pa.

 

My assumption is their business position, at least for now, is a whole load more healthy that TrafficMasters appears to have been. 

 

And I found this reference which says at least VOLVO use them.

And some TomTom products include their location tables which, going on raw binary size, is over 3 times as large as the TrafficMaster offering.

[Arthur124]

1 hour ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Does anyone know who actually uses the INRIX service that is broadcast at the moment? Seems a bit pointless to broadcast a service that people do not or can not access.

 

 

From Wickedpedia.......

 

Trafficmaster (Teletrac Navman) supply the following manufacturers,  all of which we now know are having major issues.......

 

INRIX (ITIS) supply the following manufacturers..... owners of their systems are NOT reporting and issues as far as we know........

 

 

[Hillbilly23]

2 hours ago, Arthur124 said:

 

 

From Wickedpedia.......

 

Trafficmaster (Teletrac Navman) supply the following manufacturers,  all of which we now know are having major issues.......

 

INRIX (ITIS) supply the following manufacturers..... owners of their systems are NOT reporting and issues as far as we know........

 

 

Incredible that eight major motor manufacturers have allowed this to happen.

 

[TruckbusUK]

2 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Incredible that eight major motor manufacturers have allowed this to happen.

 

Seems a bit of a sweeping statement as you don't actually know what the issue is, contractual, firmware, etc, all you can say is on some manufacturers the TMC system is currently inoperable and currently impacting your VAG car. The issue is for the manufacturers to establish and put their own solution in place when they find it, other manufacturers issues and INRIX etc are all of little consequence to VAG who like other manufacturers will need to admit there is an issue and put their own spin on a solution at their own pace. For that we shall require to wait for VAG,  just my opinion🙃

[Hillbilly23]

16 minutes ago, TruckbusUK said:

Seems a bit of a sweeping statement as you don't actually know what the issue is, contractual, firmware, etc, all you can say is on some manufacturers the TMC system is currently inoperable and currently impacting your VAG car. The issue is for the manufacturers to establish and put their own solution in place when they find it, other manufacturers issues and INRIX etc are all of little consequence to VAG who like other manufacturers will need to admit there is an issue and put their own spin on a solution at their own pace. For that we shall require to wait for VAG,  just my opinion🙃

It seems we will be waiting a long time for VAG as they seem reluctant to admit there is an issue. Their last reply said the service was not available for my car. Well it was until about two months ago.