3 minutes ago, joek666 said:

That's effectively saying that for anything provided for your vehicle by a third party, e.g. FM & DAB broadcasts,  compatible light bulbs, tyres, oil, spark plugs, brake discs, if the third party decides to cease production, the vehicle manufacturer doesn't need to do anything, you're on your own. Your vehicle could be made obsolete at any moment, regardless of age. 

 

Well yes, that's how the world works, old things become obsolete

 

Few examples:

- There is a plan to turn off FM completely and move to DAB - originally 2020 but now pushed to 2030.

- There are loads of old non-digital TVs and SD-freeview boxes that are now obsolete.

- Windows 11 only supports CPUs from around 2017 so when Windows 10 stops support in around 2025, loads of computers will be effectively obsolete if you want to use Windows with security patches.

- Car parts will exist whilst there is a market, once that market is no longer profitable the parts are no longer made.

- Even the switch from leaded to unleaded fuel or introducing E10 is effectively obsoleting old engines.

 

It's just part of life I'm afraid.

 

 

As far as I can see, VAG have three realistic options:

- Do nothing.

- If they still have a contract with Trafficmaster, move to TMC over DAB on supported headunits (map and maybe firmware update).

- If they have a contract in place with INRIX for other regions, move to TMC over FM via INRIX (map update).

 

Unfortunately, I think that's the most likely order of likelihood too. I'd also be very surprised if anything older than the MIB2 received any 'fix'  

17 minutes ago, joek666 said:

 

That's effectively saying that for anything provided for your vehicle by a third party, e.g. FM & DAB broadcasts,  compatible light bulbs, tyres, oil, spark plugs, brake discs, if the third party decides to cease production, the vehicle manufacturer doesn't need to do anything, you're on your own.  

For serviceable parts the manufacturer already has an obligation under national/EU laws. I think it’s something like 10 or 15 years after production ceases that parts must continue to be available. That’s a reasonable timeframe if you ask me. For many vehicles these parts are available for much after that. My 2002 Audi TT (which ceased production 17 years ago in 2006) still has zero issues with parts availability for regular services.

1 hour ago, joek666 said:

 

I think giving up on an official fix sets a worrying precedent. That's effectively saying that for anything provided for your vehicle by a third party, e.g. FM & DAB broadcasts,  compatible light bulbs, tyres, oil, spark plugs, brake discs, if the third party decides to cease production, the vehicle manufacturer doesn't need to do anything, you're on your own. Your vehicle could be made obsolete at any moment, regardless of age. 

For serviceable parts the manufacturer already has an obligation under national/EU laws. I think it’s something like 10 or 15 years after production ceases that parts must continue to be available. That’s a reasonable timeframe if you ask me. For many vehicles these parts are available for a significant period after that. For example my 2002 Audi TT (which ceased production 17 years ago in 2006) still has zero issues with parts availability for service purposes.

 

That legislation is there to stop manufacturers prematurely obsoleting out their vehicles before the end of their natural life expectancy. There has been ample advanced warning of analogue TV and Radio, and end of life of Windows products, so those are hardly comparable. Unfortunately with connected devices manufacturers, can, and often do, terminate platform support as soon as a few years down the line with no legal recourse for the consumer. 

 

Similar legislation is required in this area to stop consumers getting ripped off. As is, brand new VAG (and other manufacturers vehicles) were sold as of a few months ago with a working service that has now been withdrawn with zero notice. The fact that may be due to a contracted VAG supplier terminating their service isn’t the consumers problem, it’s down to the manufacturer that sold them that product and service.

59 minutes ago, langers2k said:

 

Well yes, that's how the world works, old things become obsolete

 

Few examples:

- There is a plan to turn off FM completely and move to DAB - originally 2020 but now pushed to 2030.

- There are loads of old non-digital TVs and SD-freeview boxes that are now obsolete.

- Windows 11 only supports CPUs from around 2017 so when Windows 10 stops support in around 2025, loads of computers will be effectively obsolete if you want to use Windows with security patches.

- Car parts will exist whilst there is a market, once that market is no longer profitable the parts are no longer made.

- Even the switch from leaded to unleaded fuel or introducing E10 is effectively obsoleting old engines.

 

It's just part of life I'm afraid.

 

 

As far as I can see, VAG have three realistic options:

- Do nothing.

- If they still have a contract with Trafficmaster, move to TMC over DAB on supported headunits (map and maybe firmware update).

- If they have a contract in place with INRIX for other regions, move to TMC over FM via INRIX (map update).

 

Unfortunately, I think that's the most likely order of likelihood too. I'd also be very surprised if anything older than the MIB2 received any 'fix'  

 

 I understand all that, but a car should be expected to comfortably last for over a decade. We're talking about obsoleting a feature in cars just several years old. One of the feature benefits of my car was built in sat nav. No one from Skoda told me when I bought it that this feature would be crippled in 2023. 

5 minutes ago, pcbbc said:

For serviceable parts the manufacturer already has an obligation under national/EU laws. I think it’s something like 10 or 15 years after production ceases that parts must continue to be available. That’s a reasonable timeframe if you ask me. For many vehicles these parts are available for a significant period after that. For example my 2002 Audi TT (which ceased production 17 years ago in 2006) still has zero issues with parts availability for service purposes.

 

That legislation is there to stop manufacturers prematurely obsoleting out their vehicles before the end of their natural life expectancy. There has been ample advanced warning of analogue TV and Radio, and end of life of Windows products, so those are hardly comparable. Unfortunately with connected devices manufacturers, can, and often do, terminate platform support as soon as a few years down the line with no legal recourse for the consumer. 

 

Similar legislation is required in this area to stop consumers getting ripped off. As is, brand new VAG (and other manufacturers vehicles) were sold as of a few months ago with a working service that has now been withdrawn with zero notice. The fact that may be due to a contracted VAG supplier terminating their service isn’t the consumers problem, it’s down to the manufacturer that sold them that product and service.

Indeed the worry with connected cars they will just turn the facilities off. The map updates they run for 5 years after they upgrade the mib so on map a 2-3 more years on that for mib2. Mib3 one suspects that the integrated traffic reporting on that will go to 2030. Over the air software updates to the firmware will go if they pull the data link. The map updates are a forrunner to how things will be in connected cars. Mib2 firmware they stopped developing circa 2020 so there are no more bug fixes on those. Hobbyists taking over.

 

On mib3 if there is some development on Android / iOS in the future that limits, then people using that approach now will be stranded, ditto mib2. If they choose to change the screen emulation of those systems then they wont be happy bunnies with their best friend smartphone unable to connect. That's the one to watch. 

 

It's really the IT development in cars that need the long term care together with the mechanics. Keeping legacy systems going. On that one Vag don't have a good reputation, deleting mib support pages as the next mib comes along. POI import a case in point. 

I dropped off my Octavia earlier at the local VAG/Skoda/SEAT independent.

 

I enquired about the disabled TMC while there.  They said many owners across the marques had been in stating their TMC was no longer active.  The garage told me they had passed on owners' concerns to VAG but were still waiting to hear something definite.

 

So nothing to add really. 😕

A comparable analogy might be.......

 

We all have televisions. They are manufactured by numerous companys, each providing a wide range of models and sizes.

 

Like our cars, they are capable of receiving and decoding transmissions from providers such as SKY, BBC, Netflix, Free view etc.

 

If a service provider decides to stop transmitting programs then the root cause of not receiving the program data lies entirely with the service provider.  It does not lie with the manufacturer of the televisions.

 

It would be unreasonable to expect or demand that Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, LG, Bush etc to modify/update/repair a non-faulty TV.

 

Reinstating TMC transmissions either by Trafficmaster (or whoever may take over the contract) is the most obvious solution to the problem.

14 minutes ago, Arthur124 said:

A comparable analogy might be.......

 

We all have televisions. They are manufactured by numerous companys, each providing a wide range of models and sizes.

 

Like our cars, they are capable of receiving and decoding transmissions from providers such as SKY, BBC, Netflix, Free view etc.

 

If a service provider decides to stop transmitting programs then the root cause of not receiving the program data lies entirely with the service provider.  It does not lie with the manufacturer of the televisions.

 

It would be unreasonable to expect or demand that Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, LG, Bush etc to modify/update/repair a non-faulty TV.

 

Reinstating TMC transmissions either by Trafficmaster (or whoever may take over the contract) is the most obvious solution to the problem.

 

Well everyone would stop buying televisions if no one could watch anything on them, so I think you would find manufacturers doing something about it!

 

And there is a difference here. Skoda (VAG) was paying Trafficmaster for this data to be accessed by their vehicles. Trafficmaster stopped broadcasting, and I agree Trafficmaster cannot be compelled to resume broadcasting (it's not even as simple as that, they appear to have rescinded their right to broadcast). However, there is an alternative provider (INRIX) with whom VAG could arrange to contract TMC services from. That is what we need to push manufacturers for. Simply to replace like for like, we're not asking for anything more. 

21 hours ago, joek666 said:

 

Well everyone would stop buying televisions if no one could watch anything on them, so I think you would find manufacturers doing something about it!

 

And there is a difference here. Skoda (VAG) was paying Trafficmaster for this data to be accessed by their vehicles. Trafficmaster stopped broadcasting, and I agree Trafficmaster cannot be compelled to resume broadcasting (it's not even as simple as that, they appear to have rescinded their right to broadcast). However, there is an alternative provider (INRIX) with whom VAG could arrange to contract TMC services from. That is what we need to push manufacturers for. Simply to replace like for like, we're not asking for anything more. 

The man from Audi is ringing me today with an update. Thing is that the lack of TMC on VAG Group and other major manufacturers used vehicles will not be a good selling point in their showrooms. Why buy a VAG car and then have to use a phone or Tom Tom etc for traffic updates when you can get say a Volvo or a Ford on which the service is still received by the built in unit. If they refuse to fix the issue then this fact needs spreading far and wide.

1 hour ago, Hillbilly23 said:

The man from Audi is ringing me today with an update. Thing is that the lack of TMC on VAG Group and other major manufacturers used vehicles will not be a good selling point in their showrooms. Why buy a VAG car and then have to use a phone or Tom Tom etc for traffic updates when you can get say a Volvo or a Ford on which the service is still received by the built in unit. If they refuse to fix the issue then this fact needs spreading far and wide.

 

Agreed.

 

I can currently use the built in sat nav without traffic data, or use Android Auto but that requires me to plug in & unplug my phone via USB cable every time I get in and out of the car, along with all the drawbacks versus the built in sat nav that have already been discussed earlier in this thread.

 

Another option is to pay for Skoda Connect but the problem is that my car has no built in data connection or even the option to insert a SIM card, so again I need to tether it to my phone, and have not been able to get this to work seamlessly since I bought it. Also not keen on walking around broadcasting a mobile hotspot everywhere, so the alternative is manually turning it on when entering the car and turning it off when leaving the car.

 

Many other owners do not even have these options, because their vehicles don't come with Android Auto and/or Skoda Connect.

 

It's so frustrating because I went from an older Nissan that had a perfectly working sat nav with live traffic data. Seriously thinking about switching cars again now, not just because of the TMC issue, but also the farcical way Skoda / VW is handling this - it's a worrying sign if other things go wrong in future. 

2 hours ago, Hillbilly23 said:

The man from Audi is ringing me today with an update. Thing is that the lack of TMC on VAG Group and other major manufacturers used vehicles will not be a good selling point in their showrooms. Why buy a VAG car and then have to use a phone or Tom Tom etc for traffic updates when you can get say a Volvo or a Ford on which the service is still received by the built in unit. If they refuse to fix the issue then this fact needs spreading far and wide.

It would be good to find out if it can be fixed via map update as an example whether Audi will cover the cost of this, because with Audi you have to pay for map updates. 
 

My father in law has an Audi A4 2014 and his TMC has obviously stopped and I know for a fact his model you need to pay for map updates which is annoying

This is the reply from Audi Executive Office I received this morning. Looks like RDS-TMC has gone forever.😡

 

03866452

 

 

AO

Audi Executive Office <*****@*****.tld>









To:

• You

 

Fri 02/06/2023 11:10

 

Ref: 03866452

Re: Audi A6 - YE59 FMP

Dear Mr Powell

Following your contact to Audi UK regarding the removal of Traffic master support from our vehicles it has been confirmed that this was removed by Traffic master themselves rather than by Audi.

Unfortunately as they are a third party partner Audi UK has no influence over this decision and cannot influence it further. I am afraid there are no plans to replace this system, as noted in the owner’s manual for your vehicle the manufacturer holds the right to remove systems at any point.

I am truly sorry that I have been unable to provide you with a more positive outcome in this instance and I will now be archiving your case.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me on the details below should you have any further questions, I will be away from the office next week therefore my response may be delayed.



Kind regards

 

	Richard Speight
	Executive Office Customer Relations Manager
	Audi UK Yeomans Drive Blakelands Milton Keynes MK14 5AN
	T: 0113 733 4243 E: *****@*****.tld

Just sent this reply -

 

Dear Richard.

                        Thank you for confirming the situation with Audi and other VAG Group vehicles. I guess the same will apply to

Honda, Mazda, Chrysler, and Vauxhall and possibly other manufacturers vehicles. I was considering updating to a 16/17 plate A6 but as this will also mean no RDS-TMC it will mean a visit to the Volvo dealers instead as theirs and other cars using INRIX will still have this feature for another eight years.

 

Kind regards - Neil.

 

2 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Just sent this reply -

 

Dear Richard.

                        Thank you for confirming the situation with Audi and other VAG Group vehicles. I guess the same will apply to

Honda, Mazda, Chrysler, and Vauxhall and possibly other manufacturers vehicles. I was considering updating to a 16/17 plate A6 but as this will also mean no RDS-TMC it will mean a visit to the Volvo dealers instead as theirs and other cars using INRIX will still have this feature for another eight years.

 

Kind regards - Neil.

 

 

Good response. I am not as far along as you in terms of getting a conclusive response from Skoda, but will provide an update when I get one.

 

I wouldn't assume this is done and dusted just yet. Right now they are saving money at owners' expense because they are no longer paying Trafficmaster and also not paying INRIX for a replacement service. If they realise just how many owners are being adversely impacted, they may change their tune. particularly when owners are deciding to look elsewhere for their next car.

26 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

This is the reply from Audi Executive Office I received this morning. Looks like RDS-TMC has gone forever.😡

 

03866452

 

 

AO

Audi Executive Office <*****@*****.tld>









To:

• You

 

Fri 02/06/2023 11:10

 

Ref: 03866452

Re: Audi A6 - YE59 FMP

Dear Mr Powell

Following your contact to Audi UK regarding the removal of Traffic master support from our vehicles it has been confirmed that this was removed by Traffic master themselves rather than by Audi.

Unfortunately as they are a third party partner Audi UK has no influence over this decision and cannot influence it further. I am afraid there are no plans to replace this system, as noted in the owner’s manual for your vehicle the manufacturer holds the right to remove systems at any point.

I am truly sorry that I have been unable to provide you with a more positive outcome in this instance and I will now be archiving your case.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me on the details below should you have any further questions, I will be away from the office next week therefore my response may be delayed.



Kind regards

 

	Richard Speight
	Executive Office Customer Relations Manager
	Audi UK Yeomans Drive Blakelands Milton Keynes MK14 5AN
	T: 0113 733 4243 E: *****@*****.tld

WOW

 

Email back again and say will they be letting all Audi dealers know that they are selling used cars with now limited functionality

Edited 2 June, 20233 yr by Danoid

58 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

This is the reply from Audi Executive Office I received this morning. Looks like RDS-TMC has gone forever.😡

 

03866452

 

 

AO

Audi Executive Office <*****@*****.tld>









To:

• You

 

Fri 02/06/2023 11:10

 

Ref: 03866452

Re: Audi A6 - YE59 FMP

Dear Mr Powell

Following your contact to Audi UK regarding the removal of Traffic master support from our vehicles it has been confirmed that this was removed by Traffic master themselves rather than by Audi.

Unfortunately as they are a third party partner Audi UK has no influence over this decision and cannot influence it further. I am afraid there are no plans to replace this system, as noted in the owner’s manual for your vehicle the manufacturer holds the right to remove systems at any point.

I am truly sorry that I have been unable to provide you with a more positive outcome in this instance and I will now be archiving your case.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me on the details below should you have any further questions, I will be away from the office next week therefore my response may be delayed.



Kind regards

 

	Richard Speight
	Executive Office Customer Relations Manager
	Audi UK Yeomans Drive Blakelands Milton Keynes MK14 5AN
	T: 0113 733 4243 E: *****@*****.tld

Perhaps this should be forwarded to BBC Watchdog, RAC, AA, We Buy Any Car, Honest John etc etc etc. 

I have sent updated information by email to my contact in UK Broadcast Licensing (Ofcom).

 

They are still looking into this matter.

 

I await further news. 

 

4 minutes ago, Arthur124 said:

I have sent updated information by email to my contact in UK Broadcast Licensing (Ofcom).

 

They are still looking into this matter.

 

I await further news. 

 

I think the manufacturers are well aware of the problem but unwilling to spend any time or money to fix it.😡

 

I’ve said skimmed through Traffic Master and seems like they’re not far from going bankrupt.

 

I wonder if they asked for too much money from VAG etc, hopefully they’ll back down and reduce the fee

1 hour ago, Danoid said:

I’ve said skimmed through Traffic Master and seems like they’re not far from going bankrupt.

 

I wonder if they asked for too much money from VAG etc, hopefully they’ll back down and reduce the fee

Not that easy to reinstate the service as Trafficmaster no longer have a contract to broadcast the information over the radio. I find it hard to believe that VAG etc did not know about the switch off.

 

Quote

Unfortunately as they are a third party partner Audi UK has no influence over this decision and cannot influence it further. I am afraid there are no plans to replace this system, as noted in the owner’s manual for your vehicle the manufacturer holds the right to remove systems at any point.

 

Which is pretty much what I expected to happen 

14 minutes ago, Hillbilly23 said:

Not that easy to reinstate the service as Trafficmaster no longer have a contract to broadcast the information over the radio. I find it hard to believe that VAG etc did not know about the switch off.

 

As far as I can ascertain Trafficmaster contracted directly with Global Radio to broadcast on their “local” station networks Capital and Heart.  The Trafficmaster service has never been part of the competitive tendering process run by Ofcom, which is solely for the nationally available bandwidth on Classic.  That contract has been won by itis/INRIX for at least the last two tendering periods.

 

So it’s not a contractual problem, it’s entirely a financial decision to stop the Trafficmaster service.

16 hours ago, pcbbc said:

As far as I can ascertain Trafficmaster contracted directly with Global Radio to broadcast on their “local” station networks Capital and Heart.  The Trafficmaster service has never been part of the competitive tendering process run by Ofcom, which is solely for the nationally available bandwidth on Classic.  That contract has been won by itis/INRIX for at least the last two tendering periods.

 

So it’s not a contractual problem, it’s entirely a financial decision to stop the Trafficmaster service.

I agree with your reasoning but a financial decision by who? Was it Trafficmaster, in which case they surely could have raised their prices. Or was it the manufacturers who decided they don't want to pay any more and therefore are responsible for the service coming to an end. I guess it will be difficult to find out which of the two is at fault.

So all VAG group model's with Satnav are now

NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE

 

Not quite true, modern VAG sat nav use mobile type data for TMC  so are not affected, it is the devices that use the RDS-TMC broadcast over FM radio that are.  Personally I can't believe someone at VAG didn't know it was going to happen, they could have apologised in advance for loss of service and discussed alternatives, but they chose not to.