...Skoda make the 1.2 1.4 TSi engines, they do not make engines for the entire group. Get your facts straight or shut the **** up.

The 2.0 TDi is not the main culprit, it's the ECU software used in certain models with 1.6 and 2.0 CR Diesel engine.

...

So: What is the difference between the "2.0 TDi" and "2.0 CR Diesel" engines?

 

Answer: the first is a generic term for most 2004+ VW group 2.0l diesel engines. The 2.0 CR replaced the 1.9PD (over a period of time: both were available for a while in the Octavia2). 

 

When most folks here talk about a Skoda engine they mean the engine fitted to a Skoda car, not an engine manufactured (and/or designed) under the Skoda group of VW.

 

I find it hard to believe that VW shipped "US emission control cheat software" in EU VW cars' engines, but they didn't fit them to Skoda, Seat and the others cars who used the 2.0 CR engine (certain Jeep/Chrysler models?). Makes no sense they would fit different software to different makes...

 

As the questions / comments about "so what?"... this is an interesting honesty test for manufacturers (how quickly they "come clean") and competency test for governments (how will they respond to desire for better emission standards, take off the road older dirty diesels often owned by those who can't afford better, etc). 

AFFECTED for Christ's sake!

pat yourself on the back

I know this thread is about emission problems of NOx rather than CO2, but of all the cars I have owned in the recent past,

my new Skoda has managed to achieve the closest to official combined MPG figures.

 

So perhaps the CO2 figures at least are correct?

I know this thread is about emission problems of NOx rather than CO2, but of all the cars I have owned in the recent past,

my new Skoda has managed to achieve the closest to official combined MPG figures.

 

So perhaps the CO2 figures at least are correct?

 

CO2 could be fairly accurate ie about 10-20% adrift like the fuel consumption as it is measured in grams per kilometer.

 

NO is measure in milligrams per kilometer but it is far far more dangeous than CO2 for short term health whereas CO2 is more of a long term ie years or even decades issue.

 

The NO reading of these VAG diesels in 10,20, 30 ,40 times the calculated safe levels ie 500 or 1000 mg/km when it should be no higher than 80 or lower in some territories.

Huskoda, on 24 Sept 2015 - 13:12, said:

That would go down super well. Skoda owners would be a laughing stock on the road, with their slow cars that need to be pushed to go up hills.

Not as funny as all the Audi drivers having to do the same...

• •  
  • I'm that all ready, the way I drive the Yeti!   It's funny though I don't get any toots when pulling away slowly or when someone is close behind me. They just think it's some old boy in a Yeti!  

     

    I'm not a laughing stock in my Audi though!

Edited 24 September, 201510 yr by VAGCF

PD (Pumpe Duse) was where the fuel was both metered and high pressurised in a injector one per cylinder.

 

CR (Common Rail) is where there is a rail of high pressure fuel and the injector just does the metering.  Actually was not a technical improvement, but is quieter and I gather cheaper.  

God helps us Timmy. I mention my credentials, point out the latest environmental information that states NO and PMs are the most dangerous, quote the various levels of output of various engines and add to that as it is apparent that VAG has even been breaking these rather high, by some standards, levels of NO by a factor of ten to as much as forty and the various reports from London, UK, EU and US health stating the tens and hundreds of thousands of deaths, which VAG as the car maker which makes the most diesels. Diesel cars are a major contribution factor to levels of NO in the cities and we should regards VAG's cheating action where it appears the NO appears to be several fold what it legally allowed to be as a bigger threat to public health than just about anything else at the moment.

Remap the high output diesels to protect public health, plain and simply. Fit SCR where possible, and test that it is operating properly as VAG should not be trusted. Ad Blue should be being consumed at about a litre per 1000 km if working correctly. No remap, no SCR, no using on English roads, I would let the NI, Scots and Welsh decide if they want to go along with it as their population density makes it much less an issue and they might want to buy these lemons.

Irrelevant again. What figure are the VAGs in America producing when the cheat device isn't activated? You do not know. You may have worked on Diesel engines in the merchant navy. Good for you. However it seems your arguing for no good reason. Send an email regards SCR to VW, Audi etc.

What facts do you know about the ongoing drama?

I want to read about facts, not some bloke sprouting on about how much he knows about Diesel engines. I have no doubt you are a nice chap however you are boring....

Edited 24 September, 201510 yr by Tim1631

 the latest environmental information that states NO and PMs are the most dangerous, quote the various levels of output of various engines and add to that as it is apparent that VAG has even been breaking these rather high, by some standards, levels of NO by a factor of ten to as much as forty and the various reports from London, UK, EU and US health stating the tens and hundreds of thousands of deaths

During your time designing diesel engines did you ever contact the DoE to inform them of the potential dangers of the emissions from diesel engines?   

Ever seen a death certificate with cause of death Nitrogen Oxide?

So: What is the difference between the "2.0 TDi" and "2.0 CR Diesel" engines?

 

Answer: the first is a generic term for most 2004+ VW group 2.0l diesel engines. The 2.0 CR replaced the 1.9PD (over a period of time: both were available for a while in the Octavia2). 

 

When most folks here talk about a Skoda engine they mean the engine fitted to a Skoda car, not an engine manufactured (and/or designed) under the Skoda group of VW.

 

I find it hard to believe that VW shipped "US emission control cheat software" in EU VW cars' engines, but they didn't fit them to Skoda, Seat and the others cars who used the 2.0 CR engine (certain Jeep/Chrysler models?). Makes no sense they would fit different software to different makes...

 

As the questions / comments about "so what?"... this is an interesting honesty test for manufacturers (how quickly they "come clean") and competency test for governments (how will they respond to desire for better emission standards, take off the road older dirty diesels often owned by those who can't afford better, etc). 

Exactly what I've been thinking.....why would the engine be any different because it's fitted in a Skoda?

tomorrows Times implicates Mercedes too.

Renault and Volvo suspect as well

Exactly what I've been thinking.....why would the engine be any different because it's fitted in a Skoda?

 

Skoda is not sold in the US so you might just do an engine map for Skodas for Europe, another for India where fuel is lower quality etc.

 

The defeat device detected that the car was in lab conditions and ran in a way that keeps the exhaust gases within the parameters ie gently increase stoichiometric ratio rather than more radical which maes the car more driveable but much worse emissions.  

CO2 could be fairly accurate ie about 10-20% adrift like the fuel consumption as it is measured in grams per kilometer.

 

NO is measure in milligrams per kilometer but it is far far more dangeous than CO2 for short term health whereas CO2 is more of a long term ie years or even decades issue.

 

The NO reading of these VAG diesels in 10,20, 30 ,40 times the calculated safe levels ie 500 or 1000 mg/km when it should be no higher than 80 or lower in some territories.

 

The standard that was expected in the US is 0.05 g/mile (from what I can tell) so 31 mg/km, the worst of the VW performers was the jetta without SCM at 15-35 times that level so I'd expect somewhere between 465 and 1085 mg/km where as the passat with SCM was 5-20 times so 155 to 620 mg/km. Given the ages of vehicles, if they had have been sold in the UK I'd expect the jetta was euro 5 (180mg/km) and the passat was euro 6 (80mg/km) so both well above the expected limits.

 

I also suspect that if we did real world testing on either your Dacia or Jag that at least one would be above the expected level for that vehicle. One site I've seen today suggested that euro2/3 petrols emitted higher levels of NOx than standards permit which may include your jag depending on age. Also, are you worried about the PM levels from GDI based engines? In the hunt to meet ever tighter regulations unfiltered variants are producing more PM than previous petrol engines and that the particles are smaller that the equivalent diesel PM which is worrying as smaller particles cause more damage. Not sure how PM compares to NOx but it feels like swapping one evil for another...

 

As for EV, that's just moving the problem rather than solving it. That needs a good few years to see how sustainable/recyclable/total environmental impact during vehicle life compares, especially with the amount of lithium etc involved. I'd rather wait a little while and see if it lives up to some of the hype before hopping on that wagon.

 

We need some actual facts on EU variants of the engines involved against comparable cars during real world testing now. NOx levels in the UK have been falling since about 1990 and PM levels since 1970 so we are doing something right.

 

edit:

typo, should be euro 1/2 petrols, not 2/3.

Edited 24 September, 201510 yr by langers2k

Just a thought - surely the key to which engine/which car is actually the ECU.

 

I believe on the 1.6 Common Rail, it was the newer Simos PCR2.1 ECU that was fitted.

 

Is VW's skullduggery limited to this particular unit?

Irrelevant again. What figure are the VAGs in America producing when the cheat device isn't activated? You do not know. You may have worked on Diesel engines in the merchant navy. Good for you. However it seems your arguing for no good reason. Send an email regards SCR to VW, Audi etc.

What facts do you know about the ongoing drama?  I want to read about facts, not some bloke sprouting on about how much he knows about Diesel engines. I have no doubt you are a nice chap however you are boring....

 

The ICCT supplied the info to the EPA.  The EPA took months and months to validate and now are acting.  2 litre TDI in Jetta and Passat, same as other Golf platformed VWs act the same.  This is a good summary of what ICCT passed to EPA.

 

It is VAGs LNT technology that has shown to be particularly poor with results of over 1000 mg/km when the limit is 80.  SCR often better if allowed to use the Ad Blu fully and not scrimp on it but then it adds costs and convenience in running a diesel.

 

 

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_NOx-control-tech_09032015.pdf 

 

4. Conclusions and policy recommendations The new Euro 6 diesel passenger cars must meet an emission limit of 80 mg of NOX per kilometer, down from 180 mg/km for Euro 5 diesel vehicles. But this emission limit is not as stringent as it appears on paper, because it applies to an outdated emissions certification driving cycle (NEDC) that should soon be replaced by a somewhat more realistic one (WLTC). However, in all likelihood, the biggest challenge for diesel passenger car manufacturers will not arise from the laboratory test under the certification cycle (be it the NEDC or the WLTC), but from the impending real-driving emissions (RDE) test, which is scheduled to become a mandatory step for the type approval of passenger cars in the EU in 2016 (with an initial 20-month monitoring phase during which no on-road emission limits will be enforced). Under this new testing framework, diesel passenger cars will have to prove that they can keep NOX emissions at reasonably low levels6 during an on-road test that more closely represents real-world driving situations. The phase-in of the Euro 6 standard in the EU was accompanied by the widespread introduction of several technologies to control the NOX emissions from diesel passenger cars. In the first part of this paper, we introduced these technologies, and we showed the different strategies that vehicle manufacturers have adopted for their deployment in the EU and US markets. Some key differences between EU and US NOX technology control choices (e.g., the prevalence of LNT in Europe, and the emergence of combined SCR+LNT solutions in the US, likely because this type of solution is ultimately required for compliance with the low-emission bins of US Tier 2 regulations) seem to indicate that the different regulatory frameworks (the US has lower nominal emission limits, more demanding test cycles, and a robust enforcement and compliance program that the EU lacks) have a direct influence upon the technological choices made by diesel passenger car manufacturers. In this paper, we focused mostly on NOX because the emissions of this pollutant do not seem to be properly controlled outside of the artificial conditions of NEDC testing. The experimental results analyzed in this paper add to the overwhelming amount of empirical evidence that NOX emissions from diesel passenger cars are not properly controlled under the current, NEDC-based testing framework. The experimental NOX conformity factors over WLTC and NEDC helped us explore the differences among the real-world performance of different technologies, as well as the differences in the robustness of the implementations of these technologies made by individual manufacturers. The fact that the three worst-performing vehicles were all equipped with lean NOX traps does not mean that all LNT-equipped vehicles would be unfit to pass the RDE on-road test. In fact, a few of the best-performing vehicles over both the NEDC and the WLTC were equipped with this technology. What those results do indicate is that the current NEDC testing framework is insufficient to ensure that Euro 6 vehicles have acceptable NOX emissions under real conditions of use, and that the new RDE regulations are fully justified and much needed. Since RDE cannot apply retroactively to existing Euro 6 type-approval certificates, it is essential to act fast and ensure that additional high emitters of NOX are prevented from entering the market. Urgent remedial (technological) action on the part of vehicle manufacturers is also required to avoid the stigmatization of diesel cars.

An effective implementation of RDE would be a major step in the right direction that should help address Europe’s urban air quality problems in the long run. In the coming months, the European Commission will continue to work with stakeholders to determine the conformity factors that will apply to on-road RDE tests. The European Commission will phase in RDE testing in two subsequent steps with increasing levels of stringency. It is widely expected that the initial step of conformity factors (applicable from September 2017 onward) will lie around a value of 2 for NOX emissions from diesel passenger cars—i.e., these vehicles will still be allowed to emit about twice the regulated Euro 6 emission limit of 80 mg/km during the on-road test, effectively making this the first time that the Euro standards will be changed to raise an emission limit instead of lowering it. Moreover, since RDE does not include cold-start emissions, the allowed increase will be substantially higher than is indicated by the conformity factor. The second step of RDE, likely to apply from 2019 onward, should bring conformity factors close to 1 and make Euro 6 diesel cars come closer to delivering on their promise (albeit seven years after their initial market introduction). This compromise should address the urgent problem of keeping Euro 6 diesel passenger cars with weak on-road NOX control from being awarded emissions type-approval certificates in the EU. It will also give manufacturers sufficient lead time to make the necessary calibrations to their software and emissions aftertreatment hardware adjustments to their vehicles to improve their real-world NOX emissions performance, which we will continue to watch closely.

The standard that was expected in the US is 0.05 g/mile (from what I can tell) so 31 mg/km, the worst of the VW performers was the jetta without SCM at 15-35 times that level so I'd expect somewhere between 465 and 1085 mg/km where as the passat with SCM was 5-20 times so 155 to 620 mg/km. Given the ages of vehicles, if they had have been sold in the UK I'd expect the jetta was euro 5 (180mg/km) and the passat was euro 6 (80mg/km) so both well above the expected limits.

 

I also suspect that if we did real world testing on either your Dacia or Jag that at least one would be above the expected level for that vehicle. One site I've seen today suggested that euro2/3 petrols emitted higher levels of NOx than standards permit which may include your jag depending on age. Also, are you worried about the PM levels from GDI based engines? In the hunt to meet ever tighter regulations unfiltered variants are producing more PM than previous petrol engines and that the particles are smaller that the equivalent diesel PM which is worrying as smaller particles cause more damage. Not sure how PM compares to NOx but it feels like swapping one evil for another...

 

As for EV, that's just moving the problem rather than solving it. That needs a good few years to see how sustainable/recyclable/total environmental impact during vehicle life compares, especially with the amount of lithium etc involved. I'd rather wait a little while and see if it lives up to some of the hype before hopping on that wagon.

 

We need some actual facts on EU variants of the engines involved against comparable cars during real world testing now. NOx levels in the UK have been falling since about 1990 and PM levels since 1970 so we are doing something right.

 

Still a staggering amounting of deaths attributed to NO and PMs in our increasingly higher density country so small comfort that it has relatively fallen.

OK I think we're all agreed fossil fuels are harmful to everyone's health.

So back on topic of vw and likely others fiddling the numbers....

During your time designing diesel engines did you ever contact the DoE to inform them of the potential dangers of the emissions from diesel engines?   

Ever seen a death certificate with cause of death Nitrogen Oxide?

 

Not saying I designed diesel engines just worked on them for a few year and in International waters so no concern of the DoE and we did have fantastic monitoring system, even back in the 80s, for measuring exhaust gas quality even when burning residual fuel ie the cr*p left when all the good distillates had been taken out ie diesel and petrol.

 

29K premature deaths per year attributes to breathing difficulties caused by poor air quality.  If I had a pound for every time we said that.  Reference above to London and UK premature deaths figures and sources. 

The standard that was expected in the US is 0.05 g/mile (from what I can tell) so 31 mg/km, the worst of the VW performers was the jetta without SCM at 15-35 times that level so I'd expect somewhere between 465 and 1085 mg/km where as the passat with SCM was 5-20 times so 155 to 620 mg/km. Given the ages of vehicles, if they had have been sold in the UK I'd expect the jetta was euro 5 (180mg/km) and the passat was euro 6 (80mg/km) so both well above the expected limits.

 

I also suspect that if we did real world testing on either your Dacia or Jag that at least one would be above the expected level for that vehicle. One site I've seen today suggested that euro2/3 petrols emitted higher levels of NOx than standards permit which may include your jag depending on age. Also, are you worried about the PM levels from GDI based engines? In the hunt to meet ever tighter regulations unfiltered variants are producing more PM than previous petrol engines and that the particles are smaller that the equivalent diesel PM which is worrying as smaller particles cause more damage. Not sure how PM compares to NOx but it feels like swapping one evil for another...

 

As for EV, that's just moving the problem rather than solving it. That needs a good few years to see how sustainable/recyclable/total environmental impact during vehicle life compares, especially with the amount of lithium etc involved. I'd rather wait a little while and see if it lives up to some of the hype before hopping on that wagon.

 

We need some actual facts on EU variants of the engines involved against comparable cars during real world testing now. NOx levels in the UK have been falling since about 1990 and PM levels since 1970 so we are doing something right.

 

edit:

typo, should be euro 1/2 petrols, not 2/3.

 

Dacia and Jaaag warm up really quickly (within a mile it seems), unlike the 2 litre diesel I had so they perform at optimum temperature with a couple of minutes where as the diesel was still warming up 2 or 3 miles and five or ten minutes down the road. 

 

GDI (Mitsubishi) and other direct injection petrol engines have been creeping up on the NO and PM tables and hence the new 192 hp VW 1.8 TSI is both direct and indirect injection to deal with that, not really an option for diesel.

 

Breaching the limits by some many times over is not acceptable in my book and such models should be urgently recalled to be amended as the costs are just too high now and in each of the previous decades when we did not realize the toll from NO and pollution and health consequences. 

Still a staggering amounting of deaths attributed to NO and PMs in our increasingly higher density country so small comfort that it has relatively fallen.

 

I'm not saying we should ignore those deaths but blaming VAG diesels isn't going to get us anywhere, nor is suggesting everyone move to unfiltered GDI based vehicles given the potential for ultra fine particles especially during short city based journeys as the engine warms up - even if this only takes 2 miles as a number of journeys are completed in less than that.

 

The figures for NOx vs PM and the sources don't seem too clear for me.

 

Breaching the limits by some many times over is not acceptable in my book and such models should be urgently recalled to be amended as the costs are just too high now and in each of the previous decades when we did not realize the toll from NO and pollution and health consequences. 

 

Sure, and at least in the US something will be done. I'm sure we will find out how far this has spread in the industry and what solutions are being offered given time.

 

However, for EU based vehicles we are waiting for test results so until there is proof I'm not interested in what if's. Don't mistake this as defence for diesel, VAG or any other manufacturer, if evidence comes to light that shows EU car manufactures are blatantly breaching limits here then I'll completely agree that something should be done.

If you had bothered to read, and perhaps understood, I have a big (well 2.5 litire) petrol, Jaguar type S, as well, NO is 80 mg/km I gather, CO2 a rather stiff 249 g/km, not sure on the CO but the PM2.5s and PM10 I think should be quite low as they  tend to be with petrols and it.  Too me it is the smoke ie the PMs that are the dirty element, NO tend to be brown where as CO and CO2, if I remember my chemistry, is colourless.

 

Read all that thanks. Still doesnt disprove what i said that petrols have already had their emissions massively reduced. Like all cars have. Ive no problems admitting diesels pump out more Nitrogen Oxides, but they arent that terrible compared to petrols? What are the natural figures?

 

Now PMs and petrols. So something else you are ignoring. Petrols chuck out their own particulates. Particulates which are even finer than what diesels pump out, and so are actually even more dangerous for humans, and have more chance of causing cancer. As for CO not being much of a problem (or less of a problem). OK, no problem, if thats what you want to think. Im sure thats the reason places are fitted with CO detectors, because it really isnt a problem. I mean, it isnt poisonous to humans really.

NO, CO and particulates are all equally very problematic to the health of humans, and animals. I'll be nice and call the particulates a draw. So with petrols winning on one, and diesels on the other, I make that to mean both fuels are harmful in equal measure in this regard. But because burnt diesel has the nicer smell, we will let that one win

 

As for your MN engines. Were they burning diesel? Or HFO? I tell you, diesel cars are like saints compared to that stuff.

After 20 pages of people posting of what they think. Are we any closer on finding out which cars are affected in the US and what cars are affected here in the UK.

Does someone please know (Not think) which egines/cars are affected etc?

It was reported today (am Australia) that VW management would be working this weekend to provide a definitive list of vehicles affected.

Expect a pretty long list I'm thinking.

Australian dealers are still in the dark as to who's vehicles are effected and it will be next week before they get any clarification.

53% of Eurozone light vehicles are diesel

Less than 3% U.S. light vehicles are diesel

Diesels represent just under 20% of global light vehicle sales.

Obviously a much bigger issue in Europe, particularly taking into account population density compared to the U.S.

Edited 24 September, 201510 yr by Ryeman

 V A G say 11.5 million vehicles world wide are fitted with the miscreant software, most being in Europe, so let us  realise the diesel engines in our Skodas are affected. Engines apparently made  since 2010. We have been conned, that is now becoming apparent and what the future holds for us remains to be seen but one thing should be clear is the burgeoning days of diesel are over. All we need now is to learn petrol engines have been fitted with deviant software as well. BMW and now Mercedes are suspect, which may lessen the spotlight on the VAG Group but which does not remove any potential penalties we  may be faced with, and by penalties I mean any enhanced Road Fund  charges we could be faced with, levied in line with the true emissions and not those falsies published by  V A G. One thing seems certain is that those of us who live in London will be faced with greatly enhanced Parking Permit charges, Islington already has done so, doubling the ordinary charge. Probably the Congestion Charge will be enhanced for diesels and the area itself  may be greatly enlargened.  And that the Yanks have got their teeth into this, they will shake it until it is dead. I wonder if they will apply for  extraditions so as to prosecute VAG persons in America.

Is it not about time Skoda made a comment as to how we are involved, and Skoda UK in particular?

29K premature deaths per year attributes to breathing difficulties caused by poor air quality.  If I had a pound for every time we said that.  Reference above to London and UK premature deaths figures and sources. 

The air quality in the UK is probably cleaner now than it's ever been, how is it that the experts have only recently decided that NO is a major cause. Bear in mind that we have data from the early 1970's of various pollutants and they have all decreased over that time. Back in the London smog of the fifties an estimated 4000 people died prematurely, so who dreams up these 29,000 deaths figure?

 

My father was a mechanic and worked on diesel trucks for many years, he died relatively early at 76 of emphysema, so perhaps the NO in the diesel fumes contributed to his death. Oh hang on I've just remembered he smoked from when he was 14 until he was 74.

 

You bang on how clean your Renault engined Dacia is, but Renault also makes diesel engined cars and trucks, so they are also adding to the air pollution problem.

Is it not about time Skoda made a comment as to how we are involved, and Skoda UK in particular?

They are waiting for the definitive list from VW management to be produced early next week apparently.

This is a serious bombshell catching everyone (other than VW insiders) on the hop.

The 'net position' of the VW company is still to be determined over many months I expect and much patience will be required.

Owners will have to wait for their 'net position' to be resolved also.....as in resale etc.