I know what they are saying.

So let us see the actual cost of testing 'every car' to see if they match what is on the V5.

or if there is a bit of 'lost in translation' and Media Reporting,

and Every EU  Model Type Approval is checked, and representative vehicles of that type.

 

They could just go lets test every engine made by the manufacturer & apply a % factor & spec change for all models using that engine.....eg the 2lt diesel used on Audi, VW, Skoda etc in the output of 150ps & only test one of them.

 

They have a list of all engine variants so easy to do.

And the end result will be.....

 

Honestly I think everyone that bought an affected car (from any caught brand) will get a service voucher for £50. Used cars will be worth less, new cars will stay the same price since they'll be 'fixed', untill they're sold then they're worth less because of reputation. Either way the customer pays.

 

There will be some paper shuffling of big money at the board level to governments. Or VAG will go technically bankrupt so it doesn't need to pay out anything.

 

High Heid yins will leave on big retirement packages or go to other companies whatever happens

 

Sales will dip, some dealers will close, most wont.

 

VAG will be sold or broken up and sold

 

Diesel will be demonised for a few years until everyone moves to petrol again then petrol will be demonised, then electric - rinse and repeat...

 

The world will move onto the next problem, Kim Kardashian's arse affecting the tides or suchlike.

I cant even see resale values being affected in the long term. Unless they 'fix' all the vehicles, and hurt their performance. If nothing is done to the vehicles, and VW are just fined for introducing cars that didnt comply with the regulations at the time (surely the most likely scenario), then next to nobody will actually care. Diesel sales wont be affected, because it makes next to no difference to most people. I have no doubt diesels can comply with regulations without hurting performance. Its just VW introduced some diesels that didnt comply, and had to find a way round it. End of the day, this will end, and we will all buy diesels again.

I've run out of popcorn 

Great day to hide real news.

 

BTW

 

700 (Seven Hundred Human Beings) dead at the HAJ...

 

and you're all worried if the value of your Skoda has gone down £50

Edited 25 September, 201510 yr by camelspyyder

Great day to hide real news.

 

700 dead at the HAJ.

 I prefer your unedited version "Germany invade Poland again"

 

If the head of FIFA can be extradited to the US, then maybe some smug and arrogant Volkswagen Executives can as well,

but that is just a nice thought if you dislike fat cats.

 

'If' is the big 'If',  because this all happens with the knowledge of Politicians and Civil Servants and they are all going to see each other right in the end.

Out of every financial disaster and fraud there will always be new Million & Billionaires made.

 

..................................

MoggyTech, 

What is your Dealer / Insider saying today, Skoda still not effected ?

There were a lot of people killed yesterday while going to throw pebbles at a wall, that is tragic.

Can I ask a question? Compensation for what exactly? As you (and currently pretty much everyone else on the planet who owns a car or doesn't) have no idea what you're going to be out of pocket for against the probability of how much less worse off you'd have been had you bought a BMW 5 series (and just wait til BMW have to explain why their cars have software installed to defeat emissions at test as and when it comes to light), then laying out a claim for compensation at the moment is somewhat previous, don't you think?

 

As things stand at the moment, your car may or may not have software installed in the ECU which could make it pass an emissions test which it never needs. It's a little like saying "There's a light in the boot which could possibly be programmed to come on every time my car goes to the garage for a legally required test to check my tyres are correctly inflated. I want compensation from the manufacturers who designed it, or the dealer who mis sold me the car.".

Exactly what I'm saying .. If the car is either negatively impacted by changes they have to make or if future resale is impacted in a clear way, then I'd expect some sort of compensation to make me good. If it is not affected, then I wouldn't.

 

What I was trying to say is that the usual panic around things like this (which can be understandable) exacerbated by the US desire to crucify any organisation that isn't US based will almost certainly result in a punishment way worse than anyone could possibly justify and ultimately it is probably the supply chain (inc VW Group itself) workers who have done nothing wrong who will have their lives massively impacted by something driven by a tiny number of people.

 

Not that hard to follow really.

New Scientist, the Cheat and the Fix, SCR and refunds to come as part of the fix.  

 

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28240-how-did-volkswagen-cheat-in-tests-and-can-it-fix-affected-cars/

 

How did Volkswagen cheat in tests and can it fix affected cars?

 

 

(Image: Patrick T. Fallon/Bloomberg via Getty Images

Volkswagen has been cheating in emissions tests to make its diesel cars seem less polluting than they really are.

We know that Volkswagen’s on-board software used information from the steering, brakes and accelerator to detect when one of its diesel cars was on a “treadmill” undergoing an emissions test and tweak the engine settings to minimise nitrogen oxide (NOx) levels. On the open road, NOx emissions were up to 35 times higher.

It is not yet clear what exactly this software did, but we can make some educated guesses. There are two main ways to reduce NOx emissions: minimise their production or remove them from the exhaust fumes.

More NOx is produced when the temperature inside the engine cylinder is high and there is plenty of oxygen available.

One way to tackle this is to circulate some of the exhaust gas back into the engine, reducing both the temperature and oxygen level. Volkwagen’s TDI diesel engines all have these exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems.

A similar effect can be achieved by closing the exhaust valves early, so some exhaust gas remains in the cylinder. Another strategy is to increase the fuel/air ratio, leaving less oxygen to react with nitrogen to form NOx.

As for reducing NOx from the fumes once produced, modern diesel engines also have either a lean NOx trap (LNT) or selective catalytic reducer (SCR) fitted to the exhaust.

Increased fuel consumption

There are drawbacks to all these approaches. Recirculating exhaust gas, unsurprisingly, reduces engine performance. LNTs work by absorbing NOx but they rapidly become saturated with it. They have to be regenerated every few seconds by pumping extra fuel into the engine, which increases fuel consumption.   SCRs work by injecting urea into the exhaust, which reacts with nitrogen oxides, forming harmless nitrogen gas and water. Car owners have to refill the tank of urea (sold as AdBlue) every few months. It also takes up space, so SCRs are only fitted on larger vehicles.  Volkswagen’s cheat must involve tweaking some or all of these factors. The software may turn off exhaust gas recirculation to boost performance, for instance. It may regenerate LNTs less often than required to save fuel, or reduce the amount of urea injected into SCRs so the tank needs refilling less often.

In theory, Volkswagen could reduce NOx emissions by fixing the software, although its engineers seem to have been unable to do this when consulted by the US Environmental Protection Agency about the anomalous test results. The trouble Volkswagen faces is that, in the car models that do not have SCRs, reducing NOx emissions could have a major impact on performance and fuel consumption. If courts and regulators deem this unacceptable, the huge bill facing the car maker will soar even higher.

Refunds for everyone

One solution would be to retrofit SCRs to these vehicles. But it would require major modifications even if it is possible, and car owners may well object in any case. Instead, Volkswagen could end up having to refund customers, or replace their vehicles.  Even before the VW scandal broke, it was clear that most cars emit more of NOx and other pollutants than lab tests indicate. This is partly because the tests don’t reflect real-world driving conditions and partly because car makers have been allowed to use tricks such as overinflating tyres and disconnecting the battery (so no energy is used to charge it) during the tests.  The European Union was already planning to introduce “Realistic Driving Emissions” tests using portable equipment to measure the emissions of new car models on real roads, rather than in the lab. Car makers have been trying to water down these proposals. They want the “real-world” limits to be less strict than lab limits, for instance. They will now find it much harder to get their way.

And the important words in the link above from lol-lol:

 

""It is not yet clear what exactly this software did, but we can make some educated guesses""

 

So another unproved article!!

 

Anyone want some more popcorn?

There is an important press conference in the next hour when VW are expected to clarify everything including the list of vehicles involved.  Well, put it this way.  they had better clarify the situation or there will be an even bigger feeding frenzy if they appear to obfuscate.

There is absolutely NOTHING in that article which hasn't been discussed to death in this thread alone, nevermind out in the real world. It's simply some journo having his own take on the situation and explaining the facts (or misinformation) as he sees them. Christ on a bike, he couldn't even manage to take a picture of an engine!

 

That's it. In the box, and let someone else out.

a lot of maybe's   from a science journo rather than an engineer but at least a better try than 99.9% of dermedia---    it's no secret (from long ago) that at idle egr's cycle every couple of minutes (I assume to avoid overheating)  and go wide open at sudden and heavy loads so no cheating there --   it will be interesting to see exactly "how it's made"         

 

 

Anyone want some more popcorn?

no thanks I'm feeling sleepy

And the important words in the link above from lol-lol:

 

""It is not yet clear what exactly this software did, but we can make some educated guesses""

 

So another unproved article!!

 

Anyone want some more popcorn?

Oh I think you are being a little unkind.  It is in print so it MUST be true!

 

I thought the thread was about US cars

 

 

 

This from the man who keeps mentioning London pollution and the UK...   make up your mind will you!

The New Scientist article, whilst being both a bit wordy and vague, mentions about SCRs being a solution to diesel NO issues than the LNT which sound a bit cheap and a bit rubbish with the constant burn phases belching out extra other emissions.

 

Even when SCR fitted it sounds like some of the car systems do not use enough or frequent enough Ad Blu to keep the emission under control presumably not to p*ss off (technical usage of urea) the owner with all the extra cost of consuming the additive.

There were a lot of people killed yesterday while going to throw pebbles at a wall, that is tragic.

 

If it helps, it was a very naughty wall....

If it helps, it was a very naughty wall....

 

Of course it was.........................

 

 

 

 

it was stoned.........................

Great day to hide real news.

 

BTW

 

700 (Seven Hundred Human Beings) dead at the HAJ...

 

and you're all worried if the value of your Skoda has gone down £50

Yeah i saw about those 700 dead, then heard on the radio it happens most years at the same thing, chucking stones and bricks at some pillars (some of which dont actually hit the pillars and hit other humans), so thought, yeah, none story. Its like a car accident. Always happens, none event.

As for my Skoda. Couldnt care. Dont believe it'll make any difference even if i do have some lovely new software i never knew about when i purchased it. Wont be going running to my dealer. Wont drive there either

 

Instead im going to put a sign on the back of my car.

'Beware, VW diesel engine under the bonnet. I am responsible for all the deaths in the country'

There were a lot of people killed yesterday while going to throw pebbles at a wall, that is tragic.

Listen to accounts from people that go and throw these 'pebbles'. Some people dont throw pebbles. They pick up stones and bricks, and throw them as hard as they can. Some of these bricks not reaching the pillars, and instead hitting humans standing in front of them.

Oh, and the deaths happen virtually every year. Next!!

I'm not saying that if VW have cheated it's wrong but if I was in the market for a TDI again nothing currently would stop me looking to the VAG group for a car, whether company lease or private buy. I do genuinely believe the group does built decent cars.

Going way off topic again. Now talking about people who have died throwing stones at walls. Oh dear, how sad. I'll bring up the Christians and Yazidi that are being raped and killed in Iraq and Syria. Oh wait that isn't in the news so no ones cares.

Can we get back to topic please

Edited 25 September, 201510 yr by Tim1631

Can we get back to topic please

I have a VW 2ltr diesel engine under my bonnet (ooh errr, is that what we call it now? ). I request that my name gets put on the naughty wall for being responsible for thousands of deaths in this country.

 

I also frequently travel by train, powered by diesel engines that wouldnt even comply with tier 1 emission standards, they are that old. But thats OK, because they arent VW engines

 

Sorry, closest I could get to on topic!!

Whilst you make some good points Ian and your knowledge of China will be a little better than mine as I have never been I think the point is missed a little.  What I am saying is that statistics may well show one thing or another but, how can we trust them?  Statistically it is being quoted that the diesel engine is responsible for increased levels of gases of whatever sort.  OK that may be so but how do we know those figures haven't been massaged?

 

Is China and Bejing's problems entirely down to one thing or is there a combination.  From my understanding the problems of smoking and secondary smoking are a big issue so is that part of the problem with all those diagnosed with lung problems?

 

Point being that we are given statistics by various groups who would want us to accept them without question.  Why?  Further to that why are some folk in this thread so determined to accept these statistics at face value and point the finger of blame at the diesel engine? 

 

OK VW and without doubt others will be guilty as charged but putting that right isn't going to alter the way us and our goods are transported on a daily basis.  No matter what the problems are one of the biggest problems will be finding a grain of believable truth from anyone officially involved in any of it be them Corporate or Government. 

 

If we are to believe everything we are told I will just go out and buy the Daily Mail and lock myself in the house.  Oh hang on I can't because without a diesel engine my paper and groceries won't be delivered!  Just have to stay in and look trough my back copies of Sceptical Weekly!

 I'll have to get back to you on that, SWMBO is bellowing.