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Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

Ryeman
in General Automotive Chat

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What are you blathering about?

I think he means that VW created ISIS to distract people from the emissions scandal ;)

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    • Chriswright03
      Chriswright03

      Couple of things I am struggling to get to grips with in this thread.   1) How anyone for a split second can possibly imagine VW are the only ones doing it.   2) How a seemingly well educated and

    • Jevpls
      Jevpls

      I somehow don't understand why so many are (or at least they pretend to be) worried about those emissions. Nowadays cars produce much cleaner exhaust gases than before. It doesn't matter if they are b

    • vxh26
      vxh26

      AFFECTED for Christ's sake!

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    Or was the programmer who unilaterally sneaked in this 'defeat device' actually working for IS, a very long-term strategy to kill Americans? :think:

    Or was the programmer who unilaterally sneaked in this 'defeat device' actually working for IS, a very long-term strategy to kill Americans? :think:

    Noo. It was me that invented the device, and I definitely dont work for IS. :D

     

    I think the inventer should be commended, especially if its main reason was to navigate round the American emission regs. A country that goes round driving massive V12 powered trucks as everyday cars, and then brings out stricter NOx regulations than countries that actually do think about the environment. As others have said, its a bit hypocritical. Congrats VW. You've done us all proud.

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    • Like 3

    Of course it was.........................

     

     

     

     

    it was stoned......................... :D

    Makes a change I suppose of stoning gays and women to death. There's even a teenager sentenced to be crucified for attending a demonstration.

    • Like 1

    Just watching the press review on Sky about tomorrows papers......................

     

    Looks like the British authorities knew about this "cheat" in 2013 & the EU lot knew way back in 2007!...............................

     

    Oh what a tangled web we weave...................

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    • Like 4
    • Author

    Still waiting for that definitive list.

    Are we to accept there are some newer designed VW 'light' engines that DONT have any problems meeting current emmissions standards?.

    <SNIP>

    This post is far longer than I wanted it to be so the short version is:-

     

    Relax let the facts come out and then make an informed decision rather than jump on a bandwagon of people who believe everything they hear or read.

     

    Actually, the "short" version should include your laissez faire belief that "companies are being forced by faceless bureaucrats to meet ridiculous targets that will probably make sod all difference." and therefore setting targets to reduce pollution is pointless.

    • Author

    Since the Raygun era of self regulation, the so called 'authorities' are basically shopfront windows to keep the hoi polloi happy and supposedly satisfied.

    It's a trick governments around the world use BUT underfunded when it comes to THEIR involvement.

    Eg the last GFC resulted from just such an inability to do anything meaningful and until the public finally work that out nothing will change.

    I would think the 'shopfront' testers simply want to be demonstrated that everything is hunky dory.....by all means tell me it isn't so....just don't put it in print, as I have stuff on this weekend.

    In fact just don't admit anything.....thank you very much.

    I apologise for basically stealing this angle from Yes (Pri)Minister, long gone but never forgotten.

    Edited by Ryeman

    Leading UK Claims solicitors Slater and Gordon, must have seen the adverts, invite you to register your interest in claim as an owner, or share holder, maybe even as an air breather..............

     

     

     

    http://www.slatergordon.co.uk/commercial-and-group-litigation/volkswagen-scandal-legal-investigation/?gclid=CLqx8f7ok8gCFSsEwwodGWQAog

     

     

    Volkswagen CO2 Emission Scandal Legal Investigation

    Slater and Gordon are investigating the possibility of UK based consumers bringing legal action against Volkswagen (VW). Our specialist litigation team are looking into the options for those who have been affected by the latest VW investigations.  

    The US chief executive of Volkswagen has admitted to US regulators that Volkswagen had been dishonest with US regulators and the American public, when it deliberately circumvented the clean air rules on diesel cars.

    This news has wide reaching financial implications for those people sold cars with the understanding that the cars had much lower emissions.

    We are calling for those people, both consumers and shareholders, who think they may have been affected to register their details, and join the group of affected customers we have established.

    This will enable you to be kept up to date and should any legal action arise you will be the first to know. By registering with us now, when all the issues become clear, we can give you a free, no obligation evaluation.

    As yet, VW have not admitted to falsifying emissions data in the EU / UK, nor have there been any regulatory findings.

    Can I Claim Against Volkswagen?

    The UK Government has set up its own inquiry into the car emissions testing.  The European Commission is also looking into the matter.  Future claims against Volkswagen may be possible.  We will keep you updated. 

     

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    Wikipedia has it own webpage to VAG emission violations posted a few minutes ago..........

     

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_violations

     

    Volkswagen emissions violations

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    30px-Ambox_currentevent.svg.png
    This article documents a current event. Information may change rapidly as the event progresses, and initial news reports may be unreliable. The last updates to this article may not reflect the most current information. (September 2015) Volkswagen emissions violations 240px-VW_Golf_TDI_Clean_Diesel_WAS_2010_
    2010 VW Golf TDI Clean Diesel on display at a U.S. auto show.
    Date 2009–2015 Location Worldwide Type Emissions violation Cause Engaging full emissions control only during testing Participants Volkswagen Group, US EPA, other local regulators Timeline 1999 US EPA announces new Tier 2 rules to replace Tier 1. NOx limit decreasing from 1.0 g/mi to .07 g/mi 2004-2009 Phase in period of diesel emissions rules 2007 VW suspends sales of current diesel lines awaiting technology to meet new standards 2008 VW announces new Clean Diesel cars 2009 Tier 2 fully in effect, new "clean" VW TDI cars go on sale 2009-2015 VW diesel sales in the US rebound, Clean Diesels win several environmental awards, receive tax breaks 2014 International Council on Clean Transportation asks CAFEE to help demonstrate the benefits of US diesel technology, hoping to have Europe follow suit Spring 2014 Instead, discrepancies found showing poor on-road emissions. Results presented at public forum and published, getting attention of EPA 2014-2015 EPA repeats tests, and contacts VW for explanation of poor real world NOx emissions Early September 2015 EPA threatens to not certify 2016 diesels, VW responds by admitting software programmed to cheat testing September 18, 2015 Public announcement by EPA of order to recall 2009-2015 cars September 20, 2015 VW admits deception, issues public apology September 21, 2015 First business day after news, VW stock down 20%

    In September 2015, German car maker Volkswagen AG was found to have used software designed to fraudulently pass US emissions tests for almost 500,000 of its diesel engine Volkswagen and Audi cars sold between 2009 and 2015. The software, which the company admitted was in use in 11 million of its cars worldwide, detected when cars were being lab tested for emissions, and turned on pollution controls that were normally inactive.[1] This resulted in car models passing United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) tests while in real-world driving emitting up to 35 times the legal limit of nitrogen oxides (NOx). The EPA has issued Volkswagen a Notice of Violation, saying that the software functions as a defeat device, as prohibited by the US Clean Air Act. The company has apologized for the action and is facing legal proceedings, regulatory investigations, and class action lawsuits in multiple countries.[2]

    The independent body International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) commissioned a study in 2014 and sought data from three different sources on 15 vehicles. Among these was a group of five scientists at West Virginia University who detected a high level of emissions during live road tests on three diesel cars.[3] ICCT also purchased data from two other sources.[4] They provided their findings to the EPA and the California Air Resources Board, who found the software that created the illegal defeat device in Volkswagen's diesel engines.[5] The scrutiny focused on Volkswagen AG's use of engine control unit programming techniques in vehicles equipped with turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to skirt vehicle emissions compliance laws in the United States. On 24 September Germany's Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt said that Volkswagen has admitted to manipulating emissions tests in Europe as well.[6][7]

    Contents

    Background

    220px-%2709_Volkswagen_Jetta_Diesel_Seda
     
    The 2009 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel Sedan was chosen Green Car of the Year.

    Starting with the 2009 model year, Volkswagen Group began migrating its light-duty passenger vehicle turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to a common-rail fuel injection system. This type of injection system allows for higher-precision fuel delivery through the use of electronically controlled fuel injectors and higher injection pressure, theoretically leading to better fuel atomization, better air/fuel ratio control, and by extension, better control of emissions.[8][9]

    220px-2011-07-18-wolfsburg-by-RalfR-05.j
     
    Volkswagen Research and Development building in Wolfsburg

    With the addition of a diesel particulate filter to capture soot, and on some vehicle models, a urea-based exhaust aftertreatment system, the engines were touted by Volkswagen as being as clean as or cleaner than U.S. and Californian requirements, while providing good performance and drivability.[10][11]

    Low emissions levels of Volkswagen vehicles enabled the company to avail itself of green car subsidies and tax exemptions in the USA.[12]

    Emission standards

    The VW and Audi cars identified as violators had been certified to meet either the US EPA Tier 2 / Bin 5 emissions standard or the California LEV-II ULEV standard.[13] Either standard requires that nitrogen oxide emissions not exceed 0.07 grams per mile (0.043 g/km) for engines at full useful life which is defined as either 120,000 miles (190,000 km) or 150,000 miles (240,000 km) depending on the vehicle and optional certification choices.[14][15]

    This nitrogen oxide emission standard is among the tightest on vehicles in the world. For comparison, the contemporary European standards known as Euro 5 (2010-2014 models) and Euro 6 (2015 models) only limit nitrogen oxide emissions to 0.29 grams per mile (0.18 g/km) and 0.13 grams per mile (0.08 g/km) respectively.[16]

    Early discrepancies

    The independent body International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) commissioned a study in 2014 and sourced data on 15 vehicles from three sources. This included a group of five scientists at West Virginia University[4] who conducted tests on three diesel cars, two which were later identified as belonging to the Volkswagen group and one other vehicle from another manufacturer.[3] ICCT also purchased data from Emissions Analytics, a UK-based emissions consultancy, and from stakeholders of the RDE group.[4]

    The scientists, led by research assistant professor Arvind Thiruvengadam, tested tailpipe emissions under actual road conditions, which revealed emissions far exceeding legal limits set by both European and U.S. standards. Thiruvengadam said, "...we did so much testing that we couldn't repeatedly be doing the same mistake again and again."[17][18]

    The authors reported that under real-world driving conditions one VW car exceeded US emissions limits "by a factor of 15 to 35" while the other VW car exceeded the limit "by a factor of 5 to 20".[19][3] The test car by a different manufacturer was "at or below the standard ... with exception of rural-up/downhill driving conditions".[19] All three cars were below emissions limits when using the standard laboratory testing protocols.[19] The published results confirmed the ICCT's findings.[19] The findings were also directly presented to the EPA and CARB in May 2014.[20]

    Notice of emissions testing falsification allegations

    On September 18, 2015, the U.S. EPA and CARB served notice to Volkswagen Group that approximately 480,000 VW and Audi automobiles equipped with 2-litre TDI engines, and sold in the U.S. between 2009 and 2015, had an emissions-compliance "defeat device" installed.[21][22]

    The "defeat device," in the form of specially crafted engine management unit firmware, detects emissions testing conditions, and in such conditions will cause the vehicle to comply with emissions regulations by properly activating all emissions controls. However, under normal driving conditions, the emissions controls are suppressed, allowing the engine to produce more torque and get better fuel economy, at the expense of emitting up to 40 times more nitrogen oxides than allowed by law.[23]

    Volkswagen's admission of violation

    According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Volkswagen had insisted for a year until the outbreak of the scandal that discrepancies were mere technical glitches.[24] Volkswagen only fully acknowledged that they had manipulated the vehicle emission tests, after being confronted with evidence regarding the "defeat device."[25][26]Reuters reported that what the news agency described as a "formal acknowledgement of the deception" was made by Volkswagen executives in Germany and the United States to EPA and California officials during a September 3 conference call, during which Volkswagen executives discussed written materials provided to the participants demonstrating how Volkswagen's diesel engine software circumvented U.S. emissions tests.[27]

    220px-Martin_Winterkorn_2015-03-13_001.j
     
    Volkswagen AG CEO Martin Winterkorn in March, 2015

    I am shocked by the events of the past few days. I am stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group. As CEO I accept responsibility for the irregularities. I am doing this in the interests of the company even though I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part.

    “
    ”
    Martin Winterkorn, resignation statement, September 23, 2015.[28]

    Volkswagen's CEO Martin Winterkorn was contrite, saying "I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public." Winterkorn was in charge at Volkswagen from the start of 2008 to September 2015.[29] He attributed the admitted wrongdoing to "the terrible mistakes of a few people". Winterkorn initially resisted calls to step down from his leadership role at VW,[30][31] and then resigned as CEO on September 23, 2015.[32][33][34]

    Volkswagen Group of America CEO Michael Horn was more direct, admitting "We've totally screwed up."[30] Horn added, "Our company was dishonest with the EPA, and the California Air Resources Board and with all of you."[31]

    Volkswagen announced that 11 million cars were involved in the falsified emission reports, and that over seven billion dollars would be earmarked to deal with the costs of rectifying the deceptive software at the heart of the fraudulent pollution statements.[35]

    Consequences Legal and financial repercussions

    Roughly 482,000 diesel Volkswagen cars sold in the United States since 2009 emit pollutants "linked to a range of health problems, including asthma attacks, other respiratory diseases and premature death."[36] Polluting models include the Volkswagen Jetta, Beetle, Golf, and Passat, and the Audi A3.

    Government actions

    • Canada: Environment Canada has announced that it has initiated proceedings to evaluate if "defeat devices" were installed in Volkswagen vehicles to bypass emission control tests in Canada.[41]
    • South Korea: Authorities in South Korea announced pollution control investigations into cars manufactured by Volkswagen and other European car-manufacturers. Park Pan-kyu, a deputy director at South Korea's environment ministry said: "If South Korean authorities find problems in the VW diesel cars, the probe could be expanded to all German diesel cars".[42]
    • Switzerland: The Swiss Federal Roads Office is investigating if Volkswagen diesel cars similar to those sold in the U.S. were also sold in Switzerland.
    • European Union: Government regulatory agencies and investigators have initiated proceedings in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic and Romania. Several countries have called for a Europe-wide investigation. [43][44][45]
    • United Kingdom: The Department of Transport announced on 24 September that it would begin re-testing cars from a variety of manufacturers to ensure the use of "defeat devices" is not industry wide.[46]
    • India: Indian government officials announced that they are closely following developments. The Indian Foundation of Transport, Research and Training (IFTRT) has demanded a probe into Volkswagen's Confirmation of Production process for vehicles sold in India.[47]
    • Netherlands: Netherlands has spent billions of Euros on subsidies in energy-efficient cars in the recent years. Jesse Klaver from the political party GroenLinks responded that the Netherlands must claim back money from the car manufacturers when it appears that they have also committed fraud in the Netherlands.[48]

    Private actions

    As of September 23, 2015, at least 25 class-action lawsuits have been filed in the U.S.[49][50] and Canada[51][52] on behalf of Volkswagen and Audi owners, claiming fraud and breach of contract, positing the "diminished value" of diesels that will be fixed to conform with pollution regulations, due to expected reductions in horsepower and fuel efficiency.[53]

    Market impact

    Over one quarter of VW's sales in the U.S. are diesel-powered vehicles. The corporation has chosen a market strategy that emphasizes clean diesel over electric cars or hybrid vehicles.[54]

    The vehicles affected by the recall in the U.S. include the following models:[55][56][57]

    Volkswagen has also stated that 11 million vehicles sold worldwide are affected in addition to the 480,000 vehicles with 2.0L TDI engines sold in the US.[58] According to Volkswagen, vehicles sold in other countries with the 1.6L and 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI engine known as Type EA189 are also affected. This software is also said to affect EA188 and the 2015 EA288 generation of the four-cylinder.[59]

    Stock value

    On 21 September 2015, the first day of trading after the EPA's Notice of Violation to Volkswagen became public, share prices of Volkswagen AG plunged 20% on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange.[60] On 22 September, the stock fell another 22% for a 2-day cumulative decline of 35%. On 23 September, the stock quickly fell 10.5%, dropping through the €100 barrier to a record 4-year low before regaining some lost ground.[61][62] Share prices of other German automakers were also affected, with BMW down 4.9% and Daimler down 5.8%.[63]

    Brand equity and media exposure

    The Volkswagen TDI emissions scandal has received widespread negative media exposure all over the world,[64][65][66][67][68][69] with headlines fronting the websites of multiple news gathering and reporting organizations.[10][23][70][71]

    Media outlets have called the scandal "Dieselgate" in reference to previous controversies.[72][73]

    Popular Mechanics stated that the scandal "is much worse than a recall," highlighting that Volkswagen had engaged in a pattern of "cynical deceit."[74]

    Deutsche Welle, Germany's state broadcaster, opined that a "lawsuit tsunami" was headed for Volkswagen and that the scandal had dealt a blow to the country's psyche and brand "Made in Germany".[75]

    Reactions from political and sectorial leaders

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel stated she hoped that all facts in the matter would be made known promptly, urging "complete transparency." She additionally noted that Germany's Transport Minister, Alexander Dobrindt, was in ongoing communication with Volkswagen.[76]

    Michel Sapin, the French Finance Minister, called for an investigation of diesel-powered cars that would encompass the entire continent of Europe.[77]

    Renault-Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn said it would be difficult for an automaker to conceal internally an effort to falsify vehicle emissions data, such as has happened at Volkswagen AG "I don’t think you can do something like this hiding in the bushes".[78]

    Jim Holder, the editorial director of Haymarket Automotive, (which publishes WhatCar and AutoCar), opined that there had never been a scandal in the automotive industry of this size.[79]

    Precedents

    In the 20th century, "defeat devices" were detected in diesel engines for some trucks and six companies signed a consent decree with the Justice Department and the State of California on July 1, 1999.[80]

    • Author

    A Melbourne based listed company specialising in workplace injuries and other profitable litigation.......

    Class actions have already been launched in the U.S. ........surprise surprise.

    (Peter Gordon is the president of the Aussie Rules Bulldogs FC)

    It is hard to see VW surviving the multiple claims actions and the US could be one of the smaller ones compared to several over countries actions, even the Netherlands etc. 

     

    It is quite possible to see VW shrink back to just being a car maker just for Germans and having to sell off the oversea chunks of their business VW China,  VW Mexico, SEAT, Skoda, VW Indiia for a nominal amount where those production facilities can countinue to make cars using engines from other manufacturers ie Fiat, Ford, GM, PSA, Renault.

     

    Hopefully Skoda will survive in some form as the Czech people are so nice and it sounds like they have been screwed over by the Germans again.   Same for SEAT.

    Actually, the "short" version should include your laissez faire belief that "companies are being forced by faceless bureaucrats to meet ridiculous targets that will probably make sod all difference." and therefore setting targets to reduce pollution is pointless.

    If you think that then you are mistaken.  I don't for a single minute think that trying to reduce pollution is pointless but I do think any targets set need to be realistic and by that I mean achievable.  You could say OK we will stop producing diesel engines and ban all those in use.  Would it reduce emissions?  Yes but it isn't realistic.

     

    Targets are set in all walks of life but I have seldom come across any that are reachable.  Without going off at a tangent too much I know of people who work in the Police, Education and the NHS and all have said that 'targets' set are stupidly unrealistic and more resource is wasted actually trying to reach them than would be saved if they did.  Who are setting these targets that cannot be achieved?  What actual knowledge do they have of the actual job in hand?

     

    So my attitude is far from we shouldn't bother but is very strongly we should bother but make sure that energy isn't wasted talking the talk so others think something is being done when it is obvious to many that what is being asked for is beyond reach.  Doing nothing isn't an option.  Doing something that cannot achieve it's goal is a waste and whilst that is being allowed to go on opportunities to make a real difference are being missed.

     

    Chriswright03, on 25 Sept 2015 - 12:02, said:snapback.png

    Whilst you make some good points Ian and your knowledge of China will be a little better than mine as I have never been I think the point is missed a little.  What I am saying is that statistics may well show one thing or another but, how can we trust them?  Statistically it is being quoted that the diesel engine is responsible for increased levels of gases of whatever sort.  OK that may be so but how do we know those figures haven't been massaged?

     

    Is China and Bejing's problems entirely down to one thing or is there a combination.  From my understanding the problems of smoking and secondary smoking are a big issue so is that part of the problem with all those diagnosed with lung problems?

     

    Point being that we are given statistics by various groups who would want us to accept them without question.  Why?  Further to that why are some folk in this thread so determined to accept these statistics at face value and point the finger of blame at the diesel engine? 

     

    OK VW and without doubt others will be guilty as charged but putting that right isn't going to alter the way us and our goods are transported on a daily basis.  No matter what the problems are one of the biggest problems will be finding a grain of believable truth from anyone officially involved in any of it be them Corporate or Government. 

     

    If we are to believe everything we are told I will just go out and buy the Daily Mail and lock myself in the house.  Oh hang on I can't because without a diesel engine my paper and groceries won't be delivered!  Just have to stay in and look trough my back copies of Sceptical Weekly!

     

    Right, where was i??

     

    Not so much statistics as correlations, when "A" happens every time "B" occurs, you look to see what is happening to cause "B"; in the Beijing case, deaths rise during the winter pollution season due to several factors, BUT see large spikes and dips that correlate to the build-up and dispersion of the smog. Beijing is in a bit of a depression, so the smog collects easily when there is little or no wind, and there is often little wind during the winter months. (Wind has its own problems - sand storms from the deserts!!)

     

    The same can be seen in the UK, when you look at UK NOx levels and compare them to UK hospital admissions for breathing difficulties, you will see more when the NOx levels are higher. In the UK case, these figures can also be affected by pollen counts, so you need to compare high NOx/low pollen and high pollen/low NOx figures.

     

    The pollution levels in London and the SE are nearly as bad now as they were in the 60's/70's, but consist of less soot, so arent as visible; but even up here in rural Malvern, lots of people are commenting on how they have never had "hay fever" before - is it hay fever? Or are they reacting to the higher NOx levels??

     

    If the government want to get serious about NOx, they will have to ban diesel engines from large cities - at least First Travel have enough money to convert their buses to run on LPG.

    •
    • Like 1

    If you think that then you are mistaken.  I don't for a single minute think that trying to reduce pollution is pointless but I do think any targets set need to be realistic and by that I mean achievable.  You could say OK we will stop producing diesel engines and ban all those in use.  Would it reduce emissions?  Yes but it isn't realistic.

     

    Targets are set in all walks of life but I have seldom come across any that are reachable.  Without going off at a tangent too much I know of people who work in the Police, Education and the NHS and all have said that 'targets' set are stupidly unrealistic and more resource is wasted actually trying to reach them than would be saved if they did.  Who are setting these targets that cannot be achieved?  What actual knowledge do they have of the actual job in hand?

     

    So my attitude is far from we shouldn't bother but is very strongly we should bother but make sure that energy isn't wasted talking the talk so others think something is being done when it is obvious to many that what is being asked for is beyond reach.  Doing nothing isn't an option.  Doing something that cannot achieve it's goal is a waste and whilst that is being allowed to go on opportunities to make a real difference are being missed.

     

    I think he has a valid point, some targets are counter-productive. During the 80s Rover  was developing "lean burn" engines that produced little or no pollution beyond CO2 (which is good for plants), then the government forced catalytic converters onto everyone and mpg plummeted while power also dropped (both by more than 20%), so everyone was "pushing" even harder to get any power from their engine - reducing their mpg even further and causing MORE pollution.

    •
    • Like 1

    More countries following US in stopping VW diesel sales......................

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34365794

     

    Volkswagen models sale halted in Switzerland

    • 1 hour ago
    •  
    • From the sectionBusiness
    _85761828_85739588.jpgImage copyrightAFP/Getty ImagesImage captionSome 180,000 cars could be affected by the Swiss ban

    Switzerland has temporarily banned the sale of Volkswagen (VW) diesel-engine models which could have devices capable of tricking emission tests.

    It said the move could affect 180,000 cars - not yet sold or registered - in the Euro5 emission category.

    This comes after VW, the biggest carmaker in the world, admitted cheating on emissions tests in the US.

    Meanwhile, Matthias Mueller has been named new VW chief executive in the wake of the scandal.

    He succeeds Martin Winterkorn, who resigned on Wednesday.

    The row erupted after it emerged that some VW cars being sold in the US had devices in diesel engines that could detect when they were being tested, changing the engine performance to improve results.

    The US Department of Justice (DoJ) told the BBC that it would join the US Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) investigation into VW.

    'No stone unturned'

    The ban was announced by the Swiss Federal Roads office on Friday.

    • Author

    I suspect government will tax diesel out of financial advantage and maybe even parity over time.

    • Sponsor

    GG: really?

    Cats reduce mpg and power by more than 20%?

    Source please.

    Yet just removing them does not increase MPG or Power by one fifth.

    GG: really?

    Cats reduce mpg and power by more than 20%?

    Source please.

     

    To attach a figure to it is difficult.

     

    When Rover where happily developing and selling their lean burn K series engine they told the UK, who told the EU, that to move to Catalytic converters would harm fuel consumption and therefore CO2 whilst it would reduce the oxides ie CO and NO.  

     

    That was the initial report and Rover and other petrol cars, do no think it affected wiesels so much as they way they effectively run lean and that was not going to change.

     

    There might well have been a dip in fuel consumption briefly in this period but it was soon over come by the on-going improvements in electronics, design, materials etc.

     

    So yes this device was seen to initially harm CO2 and fuel consumption but was overcome by advancements in other areas of car tech.   

    • Sponsor

    Question was for GG, but not surprised that you can't support a 'more than 20%' claim.

    • Author

    It was my understanding that lean burn and diesel combustion temps were similar in that they heighten NOx problems.

    Question was for GG, but not surprised that you can't support a 'more than 20%' claim.

     

     

    We are talking a couple of decades ago and trying to remember if I was working for Department of Transport or had move to HMRC by then.  

     

    Not sure you fill find much on the tinternet.

     

    Spent one placement on my BSc course working with Piper on the Rolling Road and doing emission tuning but it is from memory, think it was actually just a few percent but this is from memories of 20 or so years ago! 

    It was my understanding that lean burn and diesel combustion temps were similar in that they heighten NOx problems.

     

     

    True, better fuel consumption, less CO2 but more NO due to the higher temperatures.

    Right, where was i??

     

    Not so much statistics as correlations, when "A" happens every time "B" occurs, you look to see what is happening to cause "B"; in the Beijing case, deaths rise during the winter pollution season due to several factors, BUT see large spikes and dips that correlate to the build-up and dispersion of the smog. Beijing is in a bit of a depression, so the smog collects easily when there is little or no wind, and there is often little wind during the winter months. (Wind has its own problems - sand storms from the deserts!!)

     

    The same can be seen in the UK, when you look at UK NOx levels and compare them to UK hospital admissions for breathing difficulties, you will see more when the NOx levels are higher. In the UK case, these figures can also be affected by pollen counts, so you need to compare high NOx/low pollen and high pollen/low NOx figures.

     

    The pollution levels in London and the SE are nearly as bad now as they were in the 60's/70's, but consist of less soot, so arent as visible; but even up here in rural Malvern, lots of people are commenting on how they have never had "hay fever" before - is it hay fever? Or are they reacting to the higher NOx levels??

     

    If the government want to get serious about NOx, they will have to ban diesel engines from large cities - at least First Travel have enough money to convert their buses to run on LPG.

    I am not trying to be difficult here Ian and this is a sensible discussion but again a couple of points occur to me.  You say not so much statistics but then you quote levels in London and the SE and UK Hospital admissions.  So where do you get those figures from and are they not statistics?

     

    Also you say that First group have enough money.  How much is enough and where do you get that idea from?  I think First had a lot of money problems in trying to buy into the rail franchise and in fact had to unload some of their depots to finance same.  I worked for a different bus group and know that they are as tight as a duck's rear.  They will only pay out if forced.

     

    I think eventually diesels will be very limited or penalised in the large cities but that won't happen any time soon and maybe not in my lifetime and I am only 62 this year!

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