I am not trying to be difficult here Ian and this is a sensible discussion but again a couple of points occur to me.  You say not so much statistics but then you quote levels in London and the SE and UK Hospital admissions.  So where do you get those figures from and are they not statistics?

 

Also you say that First group have enough money.  How much is enough and where do you get that idea from?  I think First had a lot of money problems in trying to buy into the rail franchise and in fact had to unload some of their depots to finance same.  I worked for a different bus group and know that they are as tight as a duck's rear.  They will only pay out if forced.

 

I think eventually diesels will be very limited or penalised in the large cities but that won't happen any time soon and maybe not in my lifetime and I am only 62 this year!

 

The answer will be to:-

 

1. simply tweak the software so the diesel does not run so hot
2. Add something liked better intercoolers to reduce cylinder charge temperature (T1) (lower charge temperature by one degree tends to lower (T2) post combustion temperature by about two degrees
3. Fit/set effective SCRs 

One or a combo of the above depending meeting the regs and keeping the customer happy.

Chris, re your last point for city use I think our Peugeot proves you don't need diesel any more and this scandal has done a wonderful job of educating those, otherwise not really interested in cars, of the problem cities face with NOx emmissions.

I suspect a voluntary withdrawal from light diesels as a result of targeted taxing.

Sounds simple when you put it like that but I guess as they have not done it as yet it isn't!

Chris, re your last point for city use I think our Peugeot proves you don't need diesel any more and this scandal has done a wonderful job of educating those, otherwise not really interested in cars, of the problem cities face with NOx emmissions.

I suspect a voluntary withdrawal from light diesels as a result of targeted taxing.

Oh I agree diesel isn't needed now for economy but can a petrol or alternative energy engine on it's own power a HGV or bus sufficiently?  Also if you want to go electric the electricity has to be generated by some dirty power station.  Answers will be found eventually as we as a species evolve and always will.  None of this is going to happen overnight though and how long will it be before the petrol car comes under fire for it's sins?

As we know the UK has more Electricity Generated or has the potential to than gets used from the Onshore & Offshore Wind farms that the public have paid for and are still paying for.

But Offpeak it is not being used to the capacity it could be even with Heavy Industry Users working the shifts to take advantage when it is at its cheapest, and Electricity can not be stored other than with Hydro Schemes, yet it can be used in Electric Vehicles by charging in the Off Peak Period overnight.

http://renewables-map.co.uk/windfarm.asp

 

Lots of Electric & Hybrid Busses being introduced in Cities in Scotland in 2015/16

but also Electric Buses are running rural routes.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-25001182

 

http://whiteleewindfarm.com

http://offshorewindscotland.org.uk

Oh I agree diesel isn't needed now for economy but can a petrol or alternative energy engine on it's own power a HGV or bus sufficiently?  Also if you want to go electric the electricity has to be generated by some dirty power station.  Answers will be found eventually as we as a species evolve and always will.  None of this is going to happen overnight though and how long will it be before the petrol car comes under fire for it's sins?

Well CNG for city busses and before long I suspect battery also (if not instead).

HGV don't spend enough time in city centres to be a major problem there I would think.

In the end Tesla and Toyota will deal with this issue in their own way with solar/nuclear plus fuel cell tech.

The future is in California.

I remember being at traffic lights behind a First bus... big letters on the back

LOW EMISSION BUS

I had to wait for the smoke to clear before I could see were I was going....

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Ryeman,

Have you visited the British Isles.?  

There are shops & Businesss in UK cities and these all get delivered to.

The Passenger cars sit gridlocked often with the Light & Heavy Goods vehicles and the Buses.

 

http://freightinthecity.com/category/last-mile-deliveries

Ryeman,

Have you visited the British Isles.?  

There are shops & Businesss in UK cities and these all get delivered to.

The Passenger cars sit gridlocked often with the Light & Heavy Goods vehicles and the Buses.

 

http://freightinthecity.com/category/last-mile-deliveries

 

Ryeman has visited us, as I had coffee with him and his wife recently, in Llanidloes.

 

***************

 

It is all very well people saying diesels will be banned, but who and what is going to provide the replacements? As has been said the majority of goods are delivered using diesel power; the ships run a basic diesel fuel, the lorries and trains that take them from the ports mostly run on diesel, and the final delivery to "point of sale" is also done by diesel power.

Are people suggesting that ALL these modes are going to be replaced by a petrol or electric engine? Who produces such an engine? I certainly don't know of any suitable units. They will have to be developed and manufactured.

Electric might be suitable for urban areas, but how are you going to get a 25 tonne delivery to a supermarket here in Mid Wales from a warehouse in the West Mids with electric power as we currently know it?

Currently we do not have the modal structure in place to allow for the sudden and complete removal of one power source, and it will take a long time for anything comprehensive enough to cope to be built. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, quite honestly, living in cloud cuckoo land!

 

I suggest that some of the more vociferous, and supposedly well educated members of this anti-diesel faction, both on this forum and elsewhere, stop and think for a while and look at the real world.

Ryeman,

Have you visited the British Isles.?  

There are shops & Businesss in UK cities and these all get delivered to.

The Passenger cars sit gridlocked often with the Light & Heavy Goods vehicles and the Buses.

 

http://freightinthecity.com/category/last-mile-deliveries

Just back from there

I'm not sure why CNG (and eventually battery) can't be used for the inner city deliveries from the outer transport hubs.

My impression is that there is a lack of leadership/vision or intent (complacency?)......possibly due to privatisation and 'bottom line' focus denying new infrastructure.

There are solutions BUT is there genuine desire to address the issues as opposed to dabbling.

Just back from there

I'm not sure why CNG (and eventually battery) can't be used for the inner city deliveries from the outer transport hubs.

My impression is that there is a lack of leadership/vision or intent (complacency?)......possibly due to privatisation and 'bottom line' focus denying new infrastructure.

There are solutions BUT is there genuine desire to address the issues as opposed to dabbling.

 

UK Conservative Government=Lipservice              (bit like VW)

 

Chocolate ration raised from 30g to 20g. (1984)

 

Swiss and US ban the sales of non-SCR VW diesels, UK says no plan to do so.

The first priority is to deal with NOx in the major capitals .....in the UK London has a severe problem and should be the starting point for new infrastructure.

The first priority is to deal with NOx in the major capitals .....in the UK London has a severe problem and should be the starting point for new infrastructure.

 

We have Boris bikes (was Barclays sponsored now Santander).      

 

And we are working on Boris Cars..    

They talk about it lots.  Emissions, Cities, Pollution.

But in the UK we put those that were in the Oil & Gas business into the house of Lords, 

Ex BP Chairman, George Osborne's Father in Law and the likes.

 

Then the UK Banks & Financial Institutions Invest the Pension Funds in the Oil & Gas Companies and the Car Manufacturers.

MP's & Peers also Serve on the Boards of them and no doubt hold shares and investments.

http://lamiloproject.eu

I get the impression Boris might be one of the few 'Chipping Norton set' with some gumption and vision.

They talk about it lots.  Emissions, Cities, Pollution.

But in the UK we put those that were in the Oil & Gas business into the house of Lords, 

Ex BP Chairman, George Osborne's Father in Law and the likes.

 

Then the UK Banks & Financial Institutions Invest the Pension Funds in the Oil & Gas Companies and the Car Manufacturers.

MP's & Peers also Serve on the Boards of them and no doubt hold shares and investments.

http://lamiloproject.eu

The financial 'rug' is gradually being pulled out from under the oil industry by the recent success of 'ethical' managed funds leading to the big banks withdrawing funding from new coal/oil projects.

I get the impression Boris might be one of the few 'Chipping Norton set' with some gumption and vision.

 

Much as I hate to agree with anybody of the right wing persuasion looking at some of things said he does seem to say it straight sometimes.

 

The near 10K premature deaths per year due to PM and NO in the London area and this is mentioned on the TFL web sites so points for that.

 

Does bug me that even in the 2020 ULEZ comes in you can simply pay £12.50 a day and bust the limit, not on in my view. 

Are you aware just how much the UK Banks have invested in Coal Extraction including in Australia?

UK Banks are the biggest investors in the Coal Extraction in Indonesia.

http://banktrack.org/show/pages/banks_and_coal

A major new coal mine in Queensland has just now had the financial rug pulled out from them.

In Australia, coal is on the nose big time.

And our new PM is much more 'green' than our previous fossil.

Edited 26 September, 201510 yr by Ryeman

& so are the banks due a big nose dive, because they invested in coal to export to China, were the Western World borrowed the money from 

to Frack for Oil in the US & Sand Oil in Canada.

 

Now OPEC Screwed the Oil price down, and the US has surpluses and no buyer, and no money.

So North America needs to go killing people in other countries so that Sudia Arabia can kill people in their country 

and the Royal Family and other that 'belong' can be very very wealthy,

 

Only even Billionaires are hurting as the Oil price drops, loosing half your wealth & income still hurts.

Especially if you have no Drinking Water,

just like North America is also short of Drinking Water.

Coal & Oil / Gas being more plentiful than Fresh drinkable Water in the world.

A major new coal mine in Queensland has just now had the financial rug pulled out from them.

In Australia, coal is on the nose big time.

 

As much of the coal goes to China and their air is about the worst in the world.  They mainly have petrol already and are going to electric big time.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-25/china-pushes-ahead-with-electric-vehicles-amid-diesel-scrutiny

 

Excellent business perspective of the motor industry, as usual, by Bloomberg expert guests. 

& so are the banks due a big nose dive, because they invested in coal to export to China, were the Western World borrowed the money from 

to Frack for Oil in the US & Sand Oil in Canada.

 

Now OPEC Screwed the Oil price down, and the US has surpluses and no buyer, and no money.

That's the point.

The world is awash with gas which is an easy stepping stone to reduced emmissions.

The popular media are happy to destroy anyone with any vision.....the octogenarian Rupert has a lot to answer for.

The world is full of wind, wave and solar.  Generating Electricity is not Difficult, Storing it is,

you can not store big amounts other than with Water Pumping and release.

but that ease of producing electricity hurts OPEC and the Oil & Gas industry.

 

But the smart money is now in Hydro, Pumping & H20 for Power and transportation of Drinking water.

Engineering using renewables to power pumps for water.

 

Not Rocket Science, but the need for Water, because everyone drinks or tries to to live,

and then they need food, and growing and rearing food needs H20 as well..

 

Coming to an area very near Scots sometime very soon.

To power the Cracking Plant at Grangemouth to refine the Petrol, Diesel and Chemicals.

Just near where the Shale Oil Gas used to be extracted.

http://ourforth.org/ucg

We do need this because currently we get the gas we need in from North America, 

and soon coming VIA Norway from North America.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33474000

Dinorwig

Cool place

The world is full of wind <SNIP>

How very true . . .

 

<SNIP> Not Rocket Science <SNIP>

I'm sure VW could find a way of "proving" that they could do it

Edited 26 September, 201510 yr by vxh26