But they haven't promoted either in the U.S.

They took the 'clean diesel' route to get the desired U.S. sales numbers to topple Toyota.

Ahh

Good point!

I dont think this has been posted, but a finnish test shows that the german carmakers has way higher nox emission than others.

Article is in Norwegian, but graph at top in english. And its also tested how cold temperaturs affect emissions.

http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-og-motor/dieselskandalen/test-av-utslipp-tyske-bilprodusenter-paa-verstingliste/a/23531019/

Edited 27 September, 201510 yr by Gromle

Am I reading this properly ?.

Skoda 1.2 TSI......petrol

v

VW 2.0 TDI .......diesel

If so there is no ability there to compare VW with Skoda as fuels and capacities are not the same.

I doubt if there is any significant difference between VW and Skoda emmissions in the same markets.

It looks like BMW and Mercedes diesels have HIGHER hot emmissions than cold.......if I'm reading/interpreting correctly.....of so v odd I would have thought.

Edited 27 September, 201510 yr by Ryeman

Sadly you are right, no possibility to compare skoda with vw.

And you read it right, BMW and merc has higher emissions when warm.

I dont know how the EU cycle is, but what have done in this is to run the EU cycle with an ampitent temperatur of -7 degrees. Thats the blue graph, the red on is the EU cycle with the standard ambient temp of 20 degrees.

Well it certainly is a somewhat misleading piece of journalism.

Great graph.  Actually shows BMW-Mini, BMW and Merc worse when warm.  Trust the Scandinavians to do it thoroughly.  We can see why they charge as much import duties on a Golf etc to make it a similar price to a Tesla for public health etc.   Appears a German diesel rather than French, Korean, Japanese petrol car issue.  Great plus for the Skoda petrol engine.

 

Test methods: German carmakers on offender list

 

 

 

Stands out: This graph shows the nitrogen oxide emissions in the laboratory at VTT Technical Research Center in Helsinki. The test is run by the EU cycle, but seven degrees below freezing in place for over 20 degrees which is specified by the EU test. Red figures show NOx with warm engine and blue figures with a cold engine.Diesel cars are marked with (D).  Source: MOTOR / NAF and Tekniikan Maillma

Us Norwegians cant take Credit for this one, it was the Finnish (or is it Finns?)

Us Norwegians cant take Credit for this one, it was the Finnish (or is it Finns?)

 

Well, well done Scandinavians, as Finland is in the EU and Norway is not perhaps the European parliament will take more notice from a Member State but then the Germans have way to much influence on EU policy as the principal EU economic engine (pun).   

The results coming out remind me of when California banned 2 strokes and limited them to no more than a certain cubic capacity.

 

Perhaps this will occur with diesels ie no diesel over say 1 litre unless fitted with effective SCR. 

Question was for GG, but not surprised that you can't support a 'more than 20%' claim.

 

 

Sorry, I missed your question in amongst the hundreds of posts; as per my last post, I dont have any paper documents left; I got the figure of 20% based on experience, a BBC documentary about Rover and the impact of the cat enforcement, made in the mid 80's and and what I can remember from "Future Ecology and Alternative Fuel Sources" (Birmingham Uni).

 

However, simply taking the cat off of a car wont make much (if any) difference, because the EMU is set up to work with the cat; you would need someone with expert knowledge of the engine to remap the EMU (and replace the exhaust section), this was possible in the very early days of cats, there were cars fitted with them for about 2 years before they became compulsory, so you could legally take the cat off (1990-1992) and it would still be able to pass an MOT.

 

I know of a vehicle where this was done mainly because I owned such a car, so had a keen interest in the result - although I never had the mod done to mine as it was used for work, and they explicitly disallowed mod'ed cars.

 

1990 Toyota Previa UK Power = 130BHP      UK average MPG = 30

                  uncat'ed      Power = 168BHP          uncat'ed  MPG = 38

 

Yeah, I know that is more than 20%, but across a wide range of cars 20% on average; those Rover lean burn engines suffered a lot, I think the BBC doc claimed it cost them nearer 30%.

One individual vehicle maketh not a statistic.

One individual vehicle maketh not a statistic.

Another GG "story".

Such a shame the homework got consumed by dog.

Won't somebody please think of the honey bees...

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/10/131003-fuel-exhaust-scent-disrupts-signals-honeybees/

Another New York Times article today in the Business section discussing the various compensation options for current owners.

Great graph.  Actually shows BMW-Mini, BMW and Merc worse when warm.  Trust the Scandinavians to do it thoroughly.  We can see why they charge as much import duties on a Golf etc to make it a similar price to a Tesla for public health etc.   Appears a German diesel rather than French, Korean, Japanese petrol car issue.  Great plus for the Skoda petrol engine.

 

Test methods: German carmakers on offender list

 

 

 

Stands out: This graph shows the nitrogen oxide emissions in the laboratory at VTT Technical Research Center in Helsinki. The test is run by the EU cycle, but seven degrees below freezing in place for over 20 degrees which is specified by the EU test. Red figures show NOx with warm engine and blue figures with a cold engine.Diesel cars are marked with (D).  Source: MOTOR / NAF and Tekniikan Maillma

 

please READ THE REPORT!!!.......................... that is not for the makers overall it was only conducted on the following cars!!!

 

TESTBILENE:

BMW 218i Active Tourer Business

Citroën C4 Cactus 110

Ford Mondeo 2,0 TDCi 150 aut. stv. Titanium

Hyundai i10 1,0

Jeep Renegade 1,4 MultiAir Limited

Kia Soul 1,6 Exclusive

Mercedes-Benz C 220 BlueTec T aut

Mini Cooper 5d

Mitsubishi Space Star 1,2 aut.

Nissan Qashqai 1,2 DIG-T 115 Acenta

Opel Corsa 1,0 T EcoFLEX Cosmo 5d

Peugeot 108 VTI 68 Allure 5d

Renault Twingo SCe 70

Škoda Fabia 1,2 TSI Style

Smart Fortwo

Toyota Aygo 1,0 VVT-i

Volkswagen Passat 2,0 TDI DSG Highline

 

You are worse than the press at misleading opinion!!!...................

Another New York Times article today in the Business section discussing the various compensation options for current owners.

Got a link?

Got a link?

How do you do that on yr iPad?.

Assume this is the one http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/your-money/how-volkswagen-could-compensate-diesel-owners.html

Smog Tests.  Lots of these on Youtube.

The $64 billion question is, of course, which unfortunate prince had the onerous duty of kissing the Permanent Secretary at the DOT (And perhaps the SOS) and waking them from their extended slumber ? -   did the DOT's corporate memory get pricked by an exhaust pipe shortly after the Rio Climate conference of 1992 ?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/24/volkswagen-emission-crisis-uk-department-of-transport-will-re-test-cars_n_8190480.html

 

Be interesting to see whether the re-testing includes petrol vehicles,  unburnt hydrocarbons and engine oil emissions.

 

In what ecologically sound World can an upper oil use limit be set that's worse than the previous generation of cars  - 1 litre every 600 miles, that's what it says in my Fab handbook and that's what it is doing at present. 

 

So, bad luck for the politicians, as the "More than my job's worth" sleeping beauties in the Type Approval Section at DOT won't be able to claim they were unaware of that.

 

As for those emission figures for Skoda - someone's having a larf.

 

 

Nick

Edited 27 September, 201510 yr by Clunkclick

Does your Fabia Owners manual not say 'May use as much as 0.5 litres 1000km (621 miles)   so 1 litre 1,242 miles, 

Driving Style & Conditions, High Mountain Passes in High Summer, Towing etc   (paraphrasing there)

 

So that is what VW write, it does not mean it is not sh!te and not to be accepted,

because nobody needs to put 8 litres of oil (or as you are saying 16 litres) in between Scheduled Services and accept that when driving in the UK at National Speed Limits.

If the cars engine is gubbed, it needs repaired.

Serviced to date  by a main dealer from new.

 

Oil usuage only became a problem after 30,000 miles.

 

Being retired now, I only do 2k a year. So that's about three top-ups.

 

With oil consumption like that. you'd expect a cloud of smoke on start-up from cold - or extreme misfiring, or a pool of oil on the ground under the sump but there's hardly any.

 

On the last service, I asked then to check for oil leaks and the only one they could find was on the gearbox.

 

So unless there's  some Grinch who pinches engine oil in the early hours of the morning, I'm stumped (That's the word).

 

Clearly, I can't be alone in this, as it was worthy of note in the handbook, and  I don't live at the North Pole or Himlayas, or regularly race Lewis H to the shops and  I only top-up when the level gets to the bottom of the braided section on the dipstick = about one litre - annual service this year in early March, hardly used the car as I've been in and out of hospital and already had to top-it up once.

 

Meanwhile, Skoda UK is overly concerned about wear of the OH Cam belts, requiring replacement every 40K, or  4 years, despite the fact that the manufacturer (Continental) rates them as good for 120,000.

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 27 September, 201510 yr by Clunkclick

true.  My 2.0 Ford Sierra had towed a horsebox for years and in the end it had sod all compression and used a gallon of recycled 20W50 a month.

 

It was gubbed.  It didn't get repaired cos it still ran, and the oil was only £2.50 a gallon at ASDA.

 

But you wouldn't run a modern engine on that rubbish.

please READ THE REPORT!!!.......................... that is not for the makers overall it was only conducted on the following cars!!!

 

TESTBILENE:

BMW 218i Active Tourer Business

Citroën C4 Cactus 110

Ford Mondeo 2,0 TDCi 150 aut. stv. Titanium

Hyundai i10 1,0

Jeep Renegade 1,4 MultiAir Limited

Kia Soul 1,6 Exclusive

Mercedes-Benz C 220 BlueTec T aut

Mini Cooper 5d

Mitsubishi Space Star 1,2 aut.

Nissan Qashqai 1,2 DIG-T 115 Acenta

Opel Corsa 1,0 T EcoFLEX Cosmo 5d

Peugeot 108 VTI 68 Allure 5d

Renault Twingo SCe 70

Škoda Fabia 1,2 TSI Style

Smart Fortwo

Toyota Aygo 1,0 VVT-i

Volkswagen Passat 2,0 TDI DSG Highline

 

You are worse than the press at misleading opinion!!!...................

 

Well obviously it was not the whole range of that company's cars but the cars selected are fairly typical of the models that brands sells and again you seem to miss the point that it is those diesel models, clearly marked with a D in the table, that are simply awful, and dangerous in that in these tests in non-lab conditions ie cold mornings that not only produce truly horrendous NO results when starting and cold but even twice to three times the allowable emission when warm.

 

A modicum of intelligence is assumed when look at tables and I am pleased you brought out some more details but it simply underlines that, in real life, non-lab conditions, presently sold diesel cars are not, when starting or up to operating temperature, adhering to the legal limitation of NO we legislation for.   The real question is what we do about it as since this thread was started and VW and their diesels, along with the other diesel cars out on the roads, have made considerable contribution, as each of their cars is polluting not just beyond the limit for one car but effectively several cars at one time, that there has been 500 more premature deaths in the UK due to air pollution and several thousand across the EU and other countries.

 

 

The main Belgian Importer has joined Switzerland and the US suspended sales of VW diesels. 

 

http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/26/vw-diesel-scandal-belgium-says-500000-cars-suspicious/

 

Following Switzerland’s ban on sales of some Volkswagen diesel models over the emissions scandal, action is being taken in Belgium too.   A major importing firm, D’Ieteren, has suspended sales of cars whose engines are considered susceptible to manipulation. Reports say 3,200 vehicles are affected.  It’s thought half a million cars have the type of engine that allows tampering.   The government says the brands involved areVolkswagen, Audi, Skoda and Seat.   Economy Minister Kris Peeters told Het Laatste Nieuws that half a million cars were “suspicious”.  “There’s definitely a problem, in Belgium as well. We think there’s a maximum of 500,000 cars that were sold in Belgium. The exact number isn’t clear, because it’s not known how how many of them have the software,” he said.   European officials including the Commission’s vice-president say EU laws could be changed to introduce tougher emissions tests in the wake of the Volkswagen rigging scandal.