Swiss and US ban the sales of non-SCR VW diesels, UK says no plan to do so.

For one very simple reason. We have not proved the cars do not comply with EU regs. Switzerland are just getting on the band wagon. However as they havent proved anything, it is a rediculous length they have gone to. America knows the cars do not comply with their rules, so fine, no problem. But Switzerland are guessing, or just following the Americans willy nilly. We used to be accused of being American puppy dogs. That title now goes to Switzerland in this case. Unless of course Switzerland want to come out and show us that the cars in Europe are affected, and do not comply.

The proof lies in the VW management's ADMISSIONS.

The rest is just speculation either way.

Oh I agree diesel isn't needed now for economy

But..... As petrols fuel economy improves, they start belching out increased hydrocarbons (what more?) and NOx. So you need to add extra barriers onto the cars to stop these harmful products reaching the atmosphere. That hurts fuel consumption, and makes petrols more complicated (you know, the same argument levied against diesels now).

So you may as well leave petrols as they are, with the increased fuel consumption but slightly lower NOx emissions than diesels, and just be happy in the knowledge that both fuels are polluting in their own rights. Then allow people to choose the engine or power source that best suits them. Long distance drivers- diesel. Medium distance- Petrol/ diesel. Short city hops- Electric. Anything in between- Hybrid/ petrol. For those that want to give it a go- Gas. For those that cant drive- bicycle. For those that cant ride a bike- Walk. For those that are able- Run.

 

The VED bands are changing, so the increased fuel consumption of petrols wont be penalised in that respect. You just use some extra fuel and stench out the atmosphere. All of us can be happy with our choices, and we all live happily ever after.

The proof lies in the VW management's ADMISSIONS.

The rest is just speculation either way.

Yep, and only one thing has been shown so far. The cars do not comply with Americas stricter NOx regs. Why has Switzerland joined the band wagon? Its nearly as bad George Osbourne licking the feet of the chinese. Ooh, here you go, let me give you a few million quid to help you understand the Premier League a bit better. If it was down to me id be saying, "here you go, heres a nuclear bomb, drop it on yourselves and wipe your nation out". But that is waaaaaaaaay off topic!

But..... As petrols fuel economy improves, they start belching out increased hydrocarbons (what more?) and NOx. So you need to add extra barriers onto the cars to stop these harmful products reaching the atmosphere. That hurts fuel consumption, and makes petrols more complicated (you know, the same argument levied against diesels now).

So you may as well leave petrols as they are, with the increased fuel consumption but slightly lower NOx emissions than diesels, and just be happy in the knowledge that both fuels are polluting in their own rights. Then allow people to choose the engine or power source that best suits them. Long distance drivers- diesel. Medium distance- Petrol/ diesel. Short city hops- Electric. Anything in between- Hybrid/ petrol. For those that want to give it a go- Gas. For those that cant drive- bicycle. For those that cant ride a bike- Walk. For those that are able- Run.

The VED bands are changing, so the increased fuel consumption of petrols wont be penalised in that respect. You just use some extra fuel and stench out the atmosphere. All of us can be happy with our choices, and we all live happily ever after.

The latest Peugeot 1.2 has has 2.0L power and 2.3L torque (at diesel revs) and not much over 100gm of CO.2 with minimal revs required....it's a stepping stone to significantly lower emmissions.

Edited 26 September, 201510 yr by Ryeman

At the moment the big foreign exporters to the states like Bmw,Kia ,Hyundai ,Vag ,Land Rover etc all meet the US and EU emissions with their petrol cars.

VW's fixation on toppling Toyota in the race to be branded 'the worlds biggest' has led to their downfall by chasing U.S. sales with their cheap n clean diesels.......it's backfired disastrously .

Here's an idea.  Why don't we stop talking about how naughty VAG have been.  We, unless we have our heads completely in some orifice must realise by now VW have been caught and many more are crapping themselves knowing full well they have done the same thing.

 

This really isn't about VAG.  It is about companies being forced by faceless bureaucrats to meet rediculous targets that will probably make sod all difference.

 

When the Kyoto agreement was made it was obvious that some countries never wanted to sign it because they knew full well they could never reach the targets.  That wasn't just pollution pumped out by VW cars!

 

People on here are whittling away about how much their car will lose in value or how much they can screw out of VW in compensation.  I seriously doubt if there is a bus, lorry or car that meet the strict regulations in real world driving.  I used to drive a bus for a living and in my time the buses came with ever stricter regulation and restrictions.  As a direct result they were gutless so what did we do in order to keep to time (because no one likes to be kept waiting) we thrashed them to within in inch of their lives all day everyday.  Don't think that would meet emission regs!

 

So if VW and other companies cannot sensibly meet the strict requirements are they wrong or are the requirements too unrealistic?  Look most of us drive in an urban environment regularly and do we actually think that the lorries, buses, vans and cars are all complying with the rules?  Nah don't think so!

 

This really is likely to be the tip of an iceberg and we all know how much of them is under the surface.  Stop whinging about the VAG group and is your poor little Skoda affected, stop blaming any individual person or company and think about does it actually affect your every day life and if it doesn't let it roll on as it surely will and when it does reassess your position then you may be more enlightened.  Opinions whether supposedly backed by qualifications that may or may not be relevant are just that, opinions and they are like ar$eholes.  We all have one but it doesn't mean they should be aired in public.

 

This post is far longer than I wanted it to be so the short version is:-

 

Relax let the facts come out and then make an informed decision rather than jump on a bandwagon of people who believe everything they hear or read.

 

I personally think it's time the thread was closed, it run its course and it has gone from a genuine concern of the VW emissions into a full scale debate, well a one man debate on the morals of using diesels and health..

 

So far UK have nothing to worry about, Skoda/Seat have not been implicated  at all up to yet, they may use the same engine but it does not mean the software is the same, also Skoda is a EU car, it only has to comply to EU standards, which from what I can see emission tests are better governed/regulated than the US ... EU cars have to be tested by an authorised test facility which may include an official witness, not by the manufacture who then send the figure to the governing body... who may or may not want to confirm them with further tests... 

 

It sounds like the US have strict emission laws, but not strict test methods... 

 

Lets open a new thread when they say "UK cars effected"... more to the point ""X" number of Skoda effected in the UK" ... 

 

I still think my Superb is the best car I have owned, still love being in it and driving it, still makes me smile, and more important I WILL buy another.... In fact I have been looking at a fully loaded Superb  "L&K" 280ps 4x4 DSG for my next car.... 

 

I will support the VAG Group the best I can ... in particular Skoda

The latest Peugeot 1.2 has has 2.0L power and 2.3L torque (at diesel revs) and not much over 100gm of CO.2 with minimal revs required....it's a stepping stone to significantly lower emmissions.

Very impressive. Whats it like to drive though? For example this supposed awesome 1ltr engine from Ford isnt actually as amazing as made out going by a lot of reports.

Also, what are the NOx and hydrocarbon emissions like? Have they increased?

If you like diesels for their unique power/torque delivery, you'll LOVE lighted more balanced petrol Pug.

If you like diesels for their unique power/torque delivery, you'll LOVE lighted more balanced petrol Pug.

 

Engine of the Year in the 1 - 1.4 litre category at the Vienna International Engine Symposium. 

A VW / Audi  1.4 TSI ACT  / 1.4 TFSI COD 150 ps has 250 NM @ 1,500 rpm.   (Emissions to be confirmed just shortly.)

 

The 1.2 Peugeot / Citroen engine is just another Petrol Choice among many.

 

VW 1.4 TSI 1390cc Twincharger 132-136kw, International Engine of the year 1-1.4 Litre for 9 years, 

and the failure rate was greater than 10% over the production run.

Economic on fuel, and many drunk oil as though they were 2 Strokes.

 

http://revotechnik.com/support/technical/14tsi-twincharger-engine-issues

Seems like a good idea to ask the new VW CEO if he can account for the previous CEO never accepting 

there were Fundamental Design, Manufacturing, Software & Quality Control issues, and handling 

of Customer After Sales Care problems.

I personally think it's time the thread was closed, it run its course and it has gone from a genuine concern of the VW emissions into a full scale debate, well a one man debate on the morals of using diesels and health..

<SNIP>

 

I have never, ever been able to understand why people call for a thread to be closed. If you feel that it has run its course, you aren't interested or you feel that people are ignoring your point of view, just walk away, it really is not that difficult.

 

<SNIP>

I will support the VAG Group the best I can ... in particular Skoda

 

That's more like it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Skoda (petrol engined) cars

For one very simple reason. We have not proved the cars do not comply with EU regs. Switzerland are just getting on the band wagon. However as they havent proved anything, it is a rediculous length they have gone to. America knows the cars do not comply with their rules, so fine, no problem. But Switzerland are guessing, or just following the Americans willy nilly. We used to be accused of being American puppy dogs. That title now goes to Switzerland in this case. Unless of course Switzerland want to come out and show us that the cars in Europe are affected, and do not comply.

 

Switzerland chooses to adopt the EU emission standard although not a member of the EU.  

 

If they now perceive that VAG have had the defeating cheating device in cars imported for their market they they are to be applauded for looking after their citizens.  Diesel as allowed, under EU laws, to produce a third more than petrol cars but if that is reported as being sometimes 5, 10 ,15 times higher than the upper limit then the Swiss authorities are clearly arriving at their own, even for a partly German speaking people who have some European car makers HQ'd in Switzerland, like GM in Zurich.  

 

Well done the Swiss for looking out for their citizens, boo to UK government for being like Pontius Pilate.  

 

 

 

Table 1

EU Emission Standards for Passenger Cars (Category M1*) Stage Date CO HC HC+NOx NOx PM PN g/km #/km

Compression Ignition (Diesel)

Euro 5a 2009.09b 0.50 - 0.23                                               0.18 0.005f -

Euro 5b 2011.09c 0.50 - 0.23                                               0.18 0.005f 6.0×1011

Euro 6 2014.09 0.50 - 0.17                                                 0.08 0.005f 6.0×1011

 

Positive Ignition (Gasoline)

Euro 5 2009.09b 1.0 0.10d -                                                0.06 0.005e,f -

Euro 6 2014.09 1.0 0.10d -                                                 0.06 0.005e,f 6.0×1011 e,g * 

I suggested it seeing as for the last few pages it has had bugger all to do with the original thread...

 

Nothing wrong with a Skoda diesel.... or any Skoda/Seat/VW/Audi in the UK.... or nothing confirmed as yet.. 

I suggested it seeing as for the last few pages it has had bugger all to do with the original thread...

 

Nothing wrong with a Skoda diesel.... or any Skoda/Seat/VW/Audi in the UK.... or nothing confirmed as yet.. 

 

Nothing wrong with sky diving without a parachute, it is only when you hit the ground you miss it.

I have never been a fan of Norman Baker MP (now Ex MP, Dead Parrot MP, gone offski.)

 but he has now raised the issue of what David Cameron MP did at the bequest of Angela Merkel over Emissions

& the Department of Transport are quick to make a statement.

 

Nothing quick happening from the DfT on the question of which Volkswagen Euro 5 Emission Diesel Engines in the UK 

might be part of the concerns over the Official EU Test results and numbers on the V5's real emission.

Switzerland chooses to adopt the EU emission standard although not a member of the EU.  

 

If they now perceive that VAG have had the defeating cheating device in cars imported for their market they they are to be applauded for looking after their citizens.  Diesel as allowed, under EU laws, to produce a third more than petrol cars but if that is reported as being sometimes 5, 10 ,15 times higher than the upper limit then the Swiss authorities are clearly arriving at their own, even for a partly German speaking people who have some European car makers HQ'd in Switzerland, like GM in Zurich.  

 

Well done the Swiss for looking out for their citizens, boo to UK government for being like Pontius Pilate.  

 

 

 

Table 1

EU Emission Standards for Passenger Cars (Category M1*) Stage Date CO HC HC+NOx NOx PM PN g/km #/km

Compression Ignition (Diesel)

Euro 5a 2009.09b 0.50 - 0.23                                               0.18 0.005f -

Euro 5b 2011.09c 0.50 - 0.23                                               0.18 0.005f 6.0×1011

Euro 6 2014.09 0.50 - 0.17                                                 0.08 0.005f 6.0×1011

 

Positive Ignition (Gasoline)

Euro 5 2009.09b 1.0 0.10d -                                                0.06 0.005e,f -

Euro 6 2014.09 1.0 0.10d -                                                 0.06 0.005e,f 6.0×1011 e,g * 

But have the Swiss proved these cars do not comply with Tier 5 regs, or that a cheating device was in use, and in reality do not comply? If so, then why havent all EU countries banned them? Perhaps (as everything else seems to suggest) it has not been proved the cars do not comply with EU tier 5 regs. Thats why the UK has not banned them. So why have Switzerland? Its called a band wagon.

Of course if Switzerland have found something, then come out and tell us. We should be told these things. Certainly up until now, it is the UK and rest of the EU acting sensibly. Switzerland seem to be going OTT. Its a bit like me refusing to drive my car now, just in case. Its OTT.

 

You like to go on about petrols NOx figures. However, petrols in the EU are still allowed to belch out more NOx than diesels in America. Its impossible to look at modern engines and work out which fuel is cleaner than the other, because they all have varying levels of barriers etc. All we know is that the engines apparently comply with the required regs applicable at the time of build, and ive no doubt the majority of them do, both petrol and diesel.

Petrols arent clean, and neither are diesels. They are both dirty in their own right. Diesels naturally pump out more NOx and larger particulates, but petrols naturally pump out more CO2, CO and hydrocarbons.

 

Its time to put this sorry saga behind us, and forget about it. Let the manufacturers produce engines that comply with current regulations, and allow drivers to choose the most suitable engine for them.

...Its time to put this sorry saga behind us, and forget about it. Let the manufacturers produce engines that comply with current regulations, and allow drivers to choose the most suitable engine for them.

 

As checked how, and by whom? That's just it, isn't it? We thought that's what they were doing, but at least one of them has admitted that they weren't really, they were cheating the system of testing, and their customers.

 

This is not really bad news, it will just result in better testing, enforcing better compliance. There may have to be some examination of whether the limits are really appropriate to the state of development of the technologies involved, but the end result is almost bound to be less poison in the air we breathe. Anyone who thinks that is a bad thing, or an irrelevance, is probably a smoker... 

In the UK the Government is not banning Car Dealers selling New Cars Euro 5 or 6 Emission vehicles in Dealerships from any manufacturers because this is peoples Businesses and Jobs and means of earning a living.

 

If the Government was to take an action that could drive any company into folding by acting without reason it is again the Tax Payer that will pay the bill in the long run.

 

What the UK Government knows or not on the last weeks revelations they seem in no hurry to make public.

As checked how, and by whom? That's just it, isn't it? We thought that's what they were doing, but at least one of them has admitted that they weren't really, they were cheating the system of testing, and their customers.

 

This is not really bad news, it will just result in better testing, enforcing better compliance. There may have to be some examination of whether the limits are really appropriate to the state of development of the technologies involved, but the end result is almost bound to be less poison in the air we breathe. Anyone who thinks that is a bad thing, or an irrelevance, is probably a smoker... 

Well you are asking questions that would require me to go deeper than i intended with my answer. I gave it simply. Lets move forward, as I have no doubt the majority of manufacturers are complying happily. We'd know if the regulations werent feasible. The car lobby would be going mad and the regs would never have been introduced. I have no doubt they are feasible, and it can only be a good thing reducing things like NOx from diesels.

So OK, let the authorities learn from their mistakes, and lets all move on. VW will be fined, and the regulators will learn, and we can all live in peace, driving cars that comply with emissions regs, and which, whilst not exactly clean, are a lot cleaner than they have been. Even those ultra clean diesels

I may even let some of you drive dirty petrols

In the UK the Government is not banning Car Dealers selling New Cars Euro 5 or 6 Emission vehicles in Dealerships from any manufacturers because this is peoples Businesses and Jobs and means of earning a living.

 

If the Government was to take an action that could drive any company into folding by acting without reason it is again the Tax Payer that will pay the bill in the long run.

 

What the UK Government knows or not on the last weeks revelations they seem in no hurry to make public.

Anyway, the majority of vehicles sold now are tier 6, and I dont think they have been implicated in this.

 

Your post highlights my point nicely. 'Without Reason'. You cant do something without reason. Well you can, but its just acting rashly, like Switzerland.

The cars being sold now will be Euro 6 Emissions as long as they are not Euro 5.5 Emissions.

VW made the Statement on Euro 6 on UK Websites.

 

The current revelations so far are on Euro 5 / 5.5.

 

We have special Connections in the UK  with Lower Saxony, Trade & Investment and our Royal Family,

Madge and Philip were there recently glad handing and showing face and checking that there investments were in good hands i would think.

& no doubt we have Members of Parliament and the House of Lords, then Hedge Funds that need to offload Investments in various Motor Manufacturers before there are more revelations.

 

I wonder if the House of Windsor lost much of its wealth as the Volkswagens Value dropped this week.

 

PS

The Cameron family and the Osborne family might well have Investments in Motor Manufacturers,

and then Margaret Hodge family trust are likely to have a few bob as well, maybe even in Volkswagen.

What about Tony Blair, maybe a few Million lost from his Front Company.

When you learn to drive, what happens? You get instructed on what to do to pass the test and get your license.

 

When it's MOT time for your car, all you have to do is make sure it passes. Many people put their cat back on for the MOT emissions test, then take it off again the next day, which isn't quite what the MOT is designed to catch, is it. Or they run about for months with a bulb out, and replace it because "it's MOT tomorrow and it'll fail if I don't." or they remove the dangly things from the rear view mirror and then put them back on after the test. In fact, the MOT tester will usually remove them for you and just put them on the passenger seat or something.

 

And that's all you have to do, pass the test. Which is exactly what VW did in the States. They designed a car which would pass the emissions test, tested it, and started selling it. Perhaps it was the wrong thing to do, or perhaps the test wasn't quite what the test was supposed to test for. In any event, all they did wrong "by the letter of the law" was to include software in the ECU which fooled the test.

 

VW will not be the only manufacturers who get caught out by this. They're just the first ones in the news.

If you like diesels for their unique power/torque delivery, you'll LOVE lighted more balanced petrol Pug.

 

But it won't pull my 1150kg caravan!

And the power curve is all wrong for off-road driving.