When you learn to drive, what happens? You get instructed on what to do to pass the test and get your license.

 

When it's MOT time for your car, all you have to do is make sure it passes. Many people put their cat back on for the MOT emissions test, then take it off again the next day, which isn't quite what the MOT is designed to catch, is it. Or they run about for months with a bulb out, and replace it because "it's MOT tomorrow and it'll fail if I don't." or they remove the dangly things from the rear view mirror and then put them back on after the test. In fact, the MOT tester will usually remove them for you and just put them on the passenger seat or something.

 

And that's all you have to do, pass the test. Which is exactly what VW did in the States. They designed a car which would pass the emissions test, tested it, and started selling it. Perhaps it was the wrong thing to do, or perhaps the test wasn't quite what the test was supposed to test for. In any event, all they did wrong "by the letter of the law" was to include software in the ECU which fooled the test.

 

VW will not be the only manufacturers who get caught out by this. They're just the first ones in the news.

 

EXACTLY!!

 

And there has been enough hot air spouted by some so-called experts on this thread to fill a 100 balloons!

re post #799,

Did Volkswagen not actually design the cars sold in the US so that each vehicle would pass the Annual Smog test they had to undergo,

not just 1 or several cars being tested before they went on sale?

& they were passing the test when being tested and only then, they could only meet the required NOx emissions when inside on a test.

<SNIP>

In any event, all they did wrong "by the letter of the law" was to include software in the ECU which fooled the test.

<SNIP>

 

A bit like lying on your Tax Return or your Spouse cheating on you.  I can't see the problem with a bit of cheating to be honest.

 

<SNIP>

VW will not be the only manufacturers who get caught out by this. They're just the first ones in the news.

 

Now there I suspect you are correct.

But have the Swiss proved these cars do not comply with Tier 5 regs, or that a cheating device was in use, and in reality do not comply? If so, then why havent all EU countries banned them? Perhaps (as everything else seems to suggest) it has not been proved the cars do not comply with EU tier 5 regs. Thats why the UK has not banned them. So why have Switzerland? Its called a band wagon.

Of course if Switzerland have found something, then come out and tell us. We should be told these things. Certainly up until now, it is the UK and rest of the EU acting sensibly. Switzerland seem to be going OTT. Its a bit like me refusing to drive my car now, just in case. Its OTT.   You like to go on about petrols NOx figures. However, petrols in the EU are still allowed to belch out more NOx than diesels in America. Its impossible to look at modern engines and work out which fuel is cleaner than the other, because they all have varying levels of barriers etc. All we know is that the engines apparently comply with the required regs applicable at the time of build, and ive no doubt the majority of them do, both petrol and diesel.  Petrols arent clean, and neither are diesels. They are both dirty in their own right. Diesels naturally pump out more NOx and larger particulates, but petrols naturally pump out more CO2, CO and hydrocarbons. Its time to put this sorry saga behind us, and forget about it. Let the manufacturers produce engines that comply with current regulations, and allow drivers to choose the most suitable engine for them.

 

Its called taking precautions.

 

If you suspect someone of murder you arrest them.  Arrest derives from the French word arrêter ie to stop.  If you suspect with sufficient reason that something is a non-compliant and potentially harming public health it is a government's duty to protect its citizens.  Clearly these millions of VW produced diesel engines are identified, by VW themselves, that the defeat device is fitted to their vehicle in North America and Europe.  Previously spending a decade as a Customs Officer I would ensure imported goods meet the UK/EU import standards, sometimes it irked me when a car marque would constructively remove thousands of cars from a bonded warehouse as the chroming process was accomplished by cyanide, sadly that was they law.  If Swiss can get a test done quickly, and as they use the EU standards anyways, and they are happy to allow the import, then OK.    EU Real Driving Emission start it role out early in 2016 and then we will know more realistic data for the known falsified VW tests and others to compare against.  AS Bill said:-

 

"To die is to be a counterfeit, for he is but the counterfeit of a man who hath not the life of a man; but to counterfeit dying,  when a man thereby liveth, is to be no counterfeit, but the true and perfect image of life indeed. The better part of valor is discretion, in the which better part I have sav'd my life."      Henry The Fourth, Part 1 Act 5, scene 4, 115–121   

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-15-5713_en.htm  

 

 

European Commission - Statement European Commission statement on air pollutant car emissions

Brussels, 24 September 2015

European Commission calls for full disclosure, zero tolerance and strict compliance with EU rules on pollutant emissions

In the wake of revelations that car manufacturer Volkswagen used a "defeat device" software to circumvent emissions standards for certain air pollutants, the  Commission calls on national authorities to look into the implications for vehicles sold in Europe and ensure that EU pollutant emission standards are scrupulously respected.  Commissioner Elżbieta Bieńkowska, responsible for Internal Market, Industry, Entrepreneurship and SMEs, said: "Our message is clear: zero tolerance on fraud and rigorous compliance with EU rules. We need full disclosure and robust pollutant emissions tests in place."  The Commission invites all Member States to carry out the necessary investigations at national level and report back. The Commission is offering to facilitate the exchange of information between Member States. We need to have a full picture of how many vehicles certified in the EU were fitted with defeat devices, which are banned by the Euro 5/6 Regulation 715/2007/EC. We will discuss this matter in detail with the national Type Approval Authorities in the coming days.  Looking ahead, we count on Member States to swiftly agree on the final measures needed so that measurements of air pollutant emissions used for the delivery of a vehicle's type approval reflect emissions in real driving conditions and cannot be fooled by deceitful applications. A new Real Driving Emission (RDE) test procedure will be phased in from early 2016, complementing the current laboratory based testing. But we still need to find agreement on the type approval treatment in case of major divergence between the results of the laboratory and real driving pollutant emissions tests. The agreement on this package, in addition to the already adopted RDE test procedures, will allow the EU to have ambitious and robust real driving emissions testing scheme in place.    In addition, Commissioner Bieńkowska has invited the Luxembourg Presidency of the Council to put the issue on the agenda of the 1 October Competitiveness Council. A technical briefing (off-the-record, accredited journalists only) on EU rules in the area of vehicle emissions standards will be organised on Friday 25 September at 12.30 CET

 

 

     

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of all this copying and pasting of reams of information from anywhere and everywhere?

 

Not too sure who posted it above and certainly not going back to look but it was suggested if you are fed up of this thread don't read it.  Do you know what? Bye!

Lets try to get back OT.................

 

In todays Telegraph various good articles about this "tip of the iceburg"...............

 

Basically VW are being made out to be a scape goat, as most manufactures cars will not pass the new "Real" test from 2016/7 onwards..................

 

(my thoughts) VW DID sneak a few crafty lines of code into the line which shows up as "rolling test bench" in VCDS which puts the car into a safe way to have it with the front wheels on a RR & the rears fixed & not rotating. Otherwise it can trip the ABS,ESC etc to go nuts & throw up fault codes/lights.

 

So VW coded this line to also tell the engine emissions section to be on best behaviour, is there anything in the test documentation that says they can't? Not that I have seen or heard. So they DID NOT break the test rules then!

 

 

So several institutes appear to have done new "real" tests in the past year or two, based on the new "real" test to be in force 2016/2017 onwards.................... & guess what???

 

 

Out of the 200 cars (all Euro 6 compliant) that they tested only 5 passed this new test & produced emissions levels to pass the Euro 6 test. So basically 195 cars produced real life emissions which were worse than what is stated for those cars & beyond the limits set by the Euro6 test.

 

Like I said VW is not the only one, if with their very deep cash reserves & huge economies of scale they have to "cheat" to pass the strict emissions tests then all the other car makers with less cash to spend on engine development will have to also!

 

I just hate all the "lets beat up VW".............lets look at everyone else in twice as much detail please.......................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=48&v=c0BRGasUUr4

fabdavrav,

Lets hear the full and honest story from Volkswagen that were caught then admitted something and some of it so far.

 

As to what you know from what ever source,

lets hear that with some sort of proof and admissions from those others.

Jeez... Enough of the 'Internet experts' trying to out bore each other..

Reality is you know the same as any of us about this situation. ie very little!

Maybe I should have added some bold text and copied and pasted a load of waffle to try and look clever.

... is there anything in the test documentation that says they can't? ...

 

Yep. Section 203(a)(3)( of the Clean Air Act, 42 U.S.C 7522(a)(3)( according to the Notice of Violation.

 

Haha, gotta love the way the forum software turns ( b ) into a smiley.

Jeez... Enough of the 'Internet experts' trying to out bore each other..

Reality is you know the same as any of us about this situation. ie very little!

Maybe I should have added some bold text and copied and pasted a load of waffle to try and look clever.

Or go out and start a diesel engine and kill a few more people. I always find that a good way of letting off steam

Yep. Section 203(a)(3)( of the Clean Air Act, 42 U.S.C 7522(a)(3)( according to the Notice of Violation.

 

Haha, gotta love the way the forum software turns ( b ) into a smiley.

 

Wrong........................

 

Just read that report, I was referring to which bit of the actual test did they violate..............

 

It appears the contravened "40.C.F.R. the C.O.C application &  the December 11, 1972 , advisory circular 24" about emission control defeat devices..............

 

so that's since 1972??.................someone else in the USA must have known since 1972......................

fabdavrav,

Lets hear the full and honest story from Volkswagen that were caught then admitted something and some of it so far.

 

As to what you know from what ever source,

lets hear that with some sort of proof and admissions from those others.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/columnists/andrew-english/can-we-ever-trust-volkswagen-again/

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11892782/Volkswagen-scandal-Europe-warned-four-years-ago-that-car-makers-were-rigging-emissions.html

 

As for my thoughts, if you have ever used VCDS on a MK6 Golf & MK7 Golf & the Skoda variants you would have seen the "rolling test bench mode". Plenty of info on web about what is required by various emissions tests. Apparently the Italian tests allow for the alternator to be fully disconnected!!..............  

I'll take your word for it about which broken rule was the one you were looking for. 

Chris, re your last point for city use I think our Peugeot proves you don't need diesel any more and this scandal has done a wonderful job of educating those, otherwise not really interested in cars, of the problem cities face with NOx emmissions.

I suspect a voluntary withdrawal from light diesels as a result of targeted taxing.

Thats such a short sighted opinion of all diesel owners, I didn't buy my Diesel Superb for it's economy, it's a 4x4 170 bhp! So far from economical! I bought it as I tow a 1450kg caravan and as an award wining tow car it fit the bill perfectly.

You say on another reply that the performance and torque is equivalent but thats not all people look for, I am guessing your on about a small 3 cylinder Peugeot, not all people want small cars! Some have good reasons to buy bigger cars with much heavier curb weights.

Plus if I was going to pick a small 3 cylinder car the last I would look at is a Peugeot! And I can speak from experience of mine and family, One who owns a 3 cylinder Peugeot! Skoda and Peugeot can not be compared. The Citigo is far superior!

I'd also like to add something, a friend of mine observed, Hasn't the French big 3's silence has been deafening!

Edited 26 September, 201510 yr by yesman

Just watching the press review on Sky about tomorrows papers......................

 

Looks like the British authorities knew about this "cheat" in 2013 & the EU lot knew way back in 2007!...............................

 

Oh what a tangled web we weave...................

 

That'll lead to a few awkward questions as to why nothing was done.

 

My concern is that once a list is released, it'll wipe money off those affected models (so far anything with a 1.6 or 2.0 diesel), and at worst the government regrades all the affected vehicles VED bands.

Thats such a short sighted opinion of all diesel owners, I didn't buy my Diesel Superb for it's economy, it's a 4x4 170 bhp! So far from economical! I bought it as I tow a 1450kg caravan and as an award wining tow car it fit the bill perfectly.

You say on another reply that the performance and torque is equivalent but thats not all people look for, I am guessing your on about a small 3 cylinder Peugeot, not all people want small cars! Some have good reasons to buy bigger cars with much heavier curb weights.

Plus if I was going to pick a small 3 cylinder car the last I would look at is a Peugeot! And I can speak from experience of mine and family, One who owns a 3 cylinder Peugeot! Skoda and Peugeot can not be compared. The Citigo is far superior!

I'd also like to add something, a friend of mine observed, Hasn't the French big 3's silence has been deafening!

 

There are only two French (volume) companies, Peugeot & Citroen is the same company, (PSA).(Bugatti is French though, only do petrol cars)

 

The two French companies have not commercially imported in the US in recent years so would have little concern about the EPA.

 

Nissan and Renault share engine tech. Qashqai, Britain's highest volume produced car. 

 

PSA has supplied millions of diesel engines to Ford, Jaguar Land Rover, Volvo.

 

If they are shown to be in breech of EU laws then, like VW / VAG, they should be ordered to fix at their cost, same for every manufacturer.

 

Same if any of their petrol cars exceed the 60 ugm/Km for petrol car emissions.  Level playing field and Public health first priority.

Prague Post article.

http://praguepost.com/the-big-story/49925-czech-figures-for-dieselgate-emerging

I am not trying to be difficult here Ian and this is a sensible discussion but again a couple of points occur to me.  You say not so much statistics but then you quote levels in London and the SE and UK Hospital admissions.  So where do you get those figures from and are they not statistics?

 

Also you say that First group have enough money.  How much is enough and where do you get that idea from?  I think First had a lot of money problems in trying to buy into the rail franchise and in fact had to unload some of their depots to finance same.  I worked for a different bus group and know that they are as tight as a duck's rear.  They will only pay out if forced.

 

I think eventually diesels will be very limited or penalised in the large cities but that won't happen any time soon and maybe not in my lifetime and I am only 62 this year!

 

There are statistics and then there are statistics; any "statistic" telling you that "X" number of people died because of "Y" is false, it is impossible to be certain - as you have been pointing out. What you CAN do is look at the numbers, look at numbers from other times, seasons and weather situations and make a calculated guess.

 

You could for instance say that statistics prove that hot weather kills teenager boys and men under 25; it doesnt, BUT more teenage boys and men under 25 die from drowning during hot weather than at any other time. In this "real life " case, you have to add alcohol as a factor, alcohol makes you not only stupid, but also more vulnerable to sudden temperature changes - so you get hot, have a few beers rip off your shirt and jump into the pond/river/water filled quarry - and promptly have a heart attack/ severe muscle cramps and drown.

 

BTW, the bit about First Group was facetious; they make most of their profits from government subsidies and put nothing back into the system.

 

Where did I get the figures; over the years I got sent on a number of advanced courses by the St John Ambulance, and a couple of my employers; these included drug awareness training, asthma and other lung diseases, a course on neck, chest and back injuries run by a Harley Street specialist  and life guarding, the pollution stuff was mentioned during the Asthma course, but it was nearly 30 years ago, and I can only remember there was a distinct link - not what the actual figures were; the drowning example comes from the life guarding course.

 

I used to have all the notes from every course I had ever been on - even my apprenticeship notes from 1981 - 85, in a filing cabinet kept in my garage, but while I was away in China for much of the year in 2011, the guy living in the house behind mine decided to do some DIY tree surgery and dropped a huge branch right through the roof of the garage - and my neighbours sheds. Since the neighbour was there - he complained and got his repairs paid for, but I didnt get home for another 4 months, but which time 90% of the stuff in my garage was wrecked, and the DIY tree surgeon had moved house!!!

 

I am sure if you  submit a FOI request to NHS England and ask for death from respiratory failure figures for the UK over the last 5 years, submit another one to DEFRA for the pollution indexes for the same period, you will be able to come up with your own figures.

 

It was reported that 10,000 people may have died due to the pollution in Beijing last winter, but it is only a estimate/guess, the Chinese government do not keep accurate records, and probably wouldnt release them even if they did; like the recent explosion and fire in Tianjin, only the people who lost someone actually know who died, my wife has "friends or friends" living there who say whole apartment blocks of people are missing, yet supposedly they are all alive and well according to the government.

I'll take your word for it about which broken rule was the one you were looking for. 

 

Thanks for posting it up as it lists the full list of violations.......................

 

 

nice short read....................  ..................

 

But finding the bit that VW violate in relation to the test in the USA was interesting to find it relates to a 1972 act/document...................

Sep 26

Green Car Reports

Another good background read on

Why VW cheated.

Toyota seem to have gone the hybrid route rather than diesel. Does VW produce a single hybrid passenger car yet?

Toyota seem to have gone the hybrid route rather than diesel. Does VW produce a single hybrid passenger car yet?

That's covered in Green Car Reports......

They gambled on 'clean diesel'(?!) and it backfired.

Toyota sees and has gambled on fuel cell as their future with hybrid as a stepping stone and are now in a verbal war with Tesla who are totally committed to battery.

Toyota seem to have gone the hybrid route rather than diesel. Does VW produce a single hybrid passenger car yet?

Golf and Passat GTE?

Golf and Passat GTE?

But they haven't promoted either in the U.S.

They took the 'clean diesel' route to get the desired U.S. sales numbers to topple Toyota.