Will pass the current MOT... not emission Euro5...

Cars (models) are certificated for emissions level before selling them in the country...

VW cheating lost certificate for that models...

These cars shout be off road if no recall will be done...

Edited 24 October, 201510 yr by 67igor1

But the Euro 5 engine vehicles are sold, first registered, people own them, we are onto Euro 6 now for sale new.

Governments in the EU and other World Regions suspended sales a few weeks back on Unsold & Unregistered Euro 5 Engine Passenger and Light Goods Vehicles.

 

So some Euro 5 engine vehicles on the road have no MOT to sit in the UK for another near 3, maybe nearly 4 years.

& the MOT Test is as the MOT test is now in the UK.

 

So the Government can start by testing their leased and owned vehicles.

ones that the DVSA (VOSA) or Department for Transport Use, HMRC Staff vehicles, Fuel Testing Vans, 

Government Ministers Official Vehicles, Military & Police vehicles on UK roads etc.

 

Lets see how soon the country grinds to a halt when all diesel & petrol, or even hybrid vehicles currently

on the UK / EU roads have to meet stricter and realistic Emissions tests,

to meet the 'Certified EU test emission figures.'  Or have to be taken off the roads until they do.

But the Euro 5 engine vehicles are sold, first registered, people own them...

That is why VW should repair them all for free to meet Euro5 emission... to proper standard (mpg and performance)

They have to remove the 'Defeat Device',  & we will see what they have to meet for emissions on the road in the EU Countries including the UK once we are told by the Government Agencies.

 

Or in the UK do the vehicles just need to meet the 'EU Emissions tests'  under testing conditions,

ie, Get through EU Testing, with no Defeat Devices,

since there is no 'On road Testing of Emissions' in the UK, and the MOT Test is what the MOT test is.

 

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

http://dft.gov.uk/vca

I wonder how much Co2 and Nox was produced during this thread 

Will pass the current MOT... not emission Euro5...

Cars (models) are certificated for emissions level before selling them in the country...

VW cheating lost certificate for that models...

These cars shout be off road if no recall will be done...

The real problem with emissions to euro 4, 5 or 6 is that the EU test procedure is flawed because it is a laboratory test on a manufacturers supplied model. The correct test should be on on road actual real driving condition test on randomly selected cars.

In a recent test the BBC carried out using real driving scenarios with an independent tester a EURO 5 Passat emitted 0.664g of NOx against the limit of 0.18g/km,but a EURO 6  Ford Focus emitted 0.442g of NOx against the limit of 0.08g/km. So not only did the Focus meet the EURO 6 limit it was above the EURO 5 limit.

Also take into account the way a car is driven, how many passengers and load is in the car, if the car has been serviced correctly etc etc. 

I wonder how much Co2 and Nox was produced during this thread 

Good question. Have noticed quite a lot of BS being quoted.

The real problem with emissions to euro 4, 5 or 6 is that the EU test procedure is flawed because it is a laboratory test on a manufacturers supplied model. The correct test should be on on road actual real driving condition test on randomly selected cars.

In a recent test the BBC carried out using real driving scenarios with an independent tester a EURO 5 Passat emitted 0.664g of NOx against the limit of 0.18g/km,but a EURO 6  Ford Focus emitted 0.442g of NOx against the limit of 0.08g/km. So not only did the Focus meet the EURO 6 limit it was above the EURO 5 limit.

Also take into account the way a car is driven, how many passengers and load is in the car, if the car has been serviced correctly etc etc. 

 

The problem with "on the road real world testing" is that it is very difficult to test every car to exactly the same conditions, weather, altitude, road surface etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.....................(feel free to carry this on as long as you can think of options).

 

  At least a lab test will test every car to a fixed set of standards, conditions and parameters for comparison purposes between various makes and models.  If each manufacturer was told to use a "realworld on the road test" they would be sure to choose a particular road and particular weather conditions etc. etc. that gave the most favouarble results for their cars.  

 

        (again)

Edited 24 October, 201510 yr by 05surveyor

^ Not to mention the cost of portable test equipment to fit in/on every type of car that needs testing.

There are Test Tracks all around the UK,

and Manufacturers, Companies & Universities & others testing Vehicles for many reasons.

Security, Safety, Emissions, Development of new vehicles & engines.

 

There are maybe a few dozen new EU Type Approved Vehicles of different kinds, Passenger & Goods come into the UK every year,

 

So using Test tracks with 'new models'  or engine / fuel types Vehicles with Weighted Dummies in around the 

'Test Tracks' that are used to represent real world Suspension Testing is not beyond the wit of the 

UK Government.

Real UK Weather, maybe not always rainy, sunny, or cold, 

but if a vehicle was tested over a week in what ever UK location there is a chance it will be more like real world UK 

than the Mickey Mouse EU Testing.

 

(The Manufacturers have been testing Mules and Pre Production and Production Ready versions 

all around the world for months or even years before they go on sale to the public, so the 

Manufacturers have all the figures and statistics, and could give these over for 'EU Type Approval', 

If EU Governments decided they wanted the actual Emissions of cars driving on roads.)

 

Not perfect, but HORIBA MIRA and others using off road test tracks are more than capable of giving the UK Government the true emission figures,

but than they did not want these, which is why we are where we are now.

http://horiba-mira.com/facilities

 

Testing Economy, testing emissions, on a variety of vehicles out of doors while being driven, not rocket science.

http://www.tescopfs.com/our-fuels/tesco-momentum99

There are Test Tracks all around the UK,

and Manufacturers, Companies & Universities & others testing Vehicles for many reasons.

Security, Safety, Emissions, Development of new vehicles & engines.

 

There are maybe a few dozen new EU Type Approved Vehicles of different kinds, Passenger & Goods come into the UK every year,

 

So using Test tracks with 'new models'  or engine / fuel types Vehicles with Weighted Dummies in around the 

'Test Tracks' that are used to represent real world Suspension Testing is not beyond the wit of the 

UK Government.

Real UK Weather, maybe not always rainy, sunny, or cold, 

but if a vehicle was tested over a week in what ever UK location there is a chance it will be more like real world UK 

than the Mickey Mouse EU Testing.

 

(The Manufacturers have been testing Mules and Pre Production and Production Ready versions 

all around the world for months or even years before they go on sale to the public, so the 

Manufacturers have all the figures and statistics, and could give these over for 'EU Type Approval', 

If EU Governments decided they wanted the actual Emissions of cars driving on roads.)

 

Not perfect, but HORIBA MIRA and others using off road test tracks are more than capable of giving the UK Government the true emission figures,

but than they did not want these, which is why we are where we are now.

http://horiba-mira.com/facilities

 

Testing Economy, testing emissions, on a variety of vehicles out of doors while being driven, not rocket science.

http://www.tescopfs.com/our-fuels/tesco-momentum99

 

As you say, "Not Perfect", but lots of people seem to be looking for a "perfect" solution.  I doubt that a perfect solution exists, so why not accept that at least lab tests, (without any "defeat devices" operational), will give the most reliable comparisons between makes and models, albeit that they will not represent "real world, on the road" results.

Edited 24 October, 201510 yr by 05surveyor

Comparisons on Rolling Roads as the EU Tests are done are what people pay the VED on as the Governments accept that,

but what the VW Emissions Scandal has shown is because the Media are now looking at real world testing is that the 

Comparisons have nothing to do with Emissions being put into the environment when vehicles are driven on roads.

 

So the pollution just continues, and so does the extra fuel used on vehicles when Governments allow the kiddology 

of reducing emissions with devices like DPF's, but still allowing manufacturers to produce big heavy vehicles.

Its what Car manufacturers wanted, and the Governments in the EU allowed them their way.

The BMW which complied with tested standards when on the road in the WVU study says you're wrong about that when manufacturers are honest

Good for them.

Was that monitoring and testing done just with the equipment fitted to customers cars and left on for a year while the vehicles drove around UK roads like when a customer buys a car?

(surely equipment can be hooked up to a Back Box & tail pipe that gathers the emissions in the way road side filters do, but allow 

the vehicle to operate almost as usual without excessive weight required.)

 

http://chandlersbrightonbmw.co.uk/news/2015/september/bmw-group-statement-concerning-the-current-discussion-of-diesel-engines

Good for them.

Was that monitoring and testing done just with the equipment fitted to customers cars and left on for a year while the vehicles drove around UK roads like when a customer buys a car?

(surely equipment can be hooked up to a Back Box & tail pipe that gathers the emissions in the way road side filters do, but allow 

the vehicle to operate almost as usual without excessive weight required.)

 

http://chandlersbrightonbmw.co.uk/news/2015/september/bmw-group-statement-concerning-the-current-discussion-of-diesel-engines

It was a scientific study, if you have better strategies I'm sure the world will be grateful.. Many more will be in progress by now, or shortly, I suspect. So evidence should be improving of the realities, soon.

Its all good.

A scientific study based on the Tests required to be carried out, certain speeds over certain distances 

and nothing to do with driving a vehicle as a Owner - Driver might.

 

In every class of passenger car that BMW build and sell, they are up there among the heaviest in that class,

they are doing very well to build the heaviest and still meet the required emissions.

Well done from BMW, 

its a shame the Worlds biggest manufacturer in 2015's first 6 months can not achieve the same without having to cheat.

 

Maybe the EU will need to bring forward the lower real world emissions and testing,

or testing similar to that done in some US states if the NOx levels in European Cities are going to be where

the EU wanted them.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34338775

Its all good.

A scientific study based on the Tests required to be carried out, certain speeds over certain distances 

and nothing to do with driving a vehicle as a Owner - Driver might.

 

In every class of passenger car that BMW build and sell, they are up there among the heaviest in that class,

they are doing very well to build the heaviest and still meet the required emissions.

Well done from BMW, 

 

 

 

New FWD platforms may change things but longintudinal layouts with RWD capable of accepting straight 6 engines with 8 speed boxes with near 50/50 weight distribution is never going to be the lightest way to do things.

 

But BMW do stay within the law. US variants use enough adblue to pass the ongoing emission tests. In Europe they don't use as much or don't require any, only enough to pass Euro 6 so they still emit more on the road in Europe than test levels but they are better than most.

Edited 24 October, 201510 yr by logiclee

That's a good point VAGCF, speculation I know but it cant be that hard to install an efficient remap that maintains power and mpg but reduces emissions. The VW boffins brains must be hunkered in their bunkers working on it right now.

I think owners are concerned about a drop in engine performance and economy because of all the publicity around the issue. If the difference is only slight then how will we know without having a rolling road test. The downside is that some folks will have a test and if there is a drop in 'something' then word will get round that the VW fixes reduces performance or economy which will effect resale values and further tarnish the VAG reputation.

So if the VW fixers and remappers have any 'sense' they should be doing there best to make the remapped engines 'slightly better' in every way thereby making them more desirable and helping to restore the tarnished VW name. Dealers can then genuinely say that VAG cars have all been improved following the fix!

Or am I just being too over optimistic?

 

re the 1.6 diesel:

Isn't the hardware identical for each power rating?

If so, uprate the lower rated ones to the one above which should avoid any reduction in preformance - only the 'top' ones would need a new ecu.

Good question. Have noticed quite a lot of BS being quoted.

May I steal your 'meme' ? ( at least I think that's what they call it.....the thingy above 'the open road')

" So the Government can start by testing their leased and owned vehicles.

ones that the DVSA (VOSA) or Department for Transport Use, HMRC Staff vehicles, Fuel Testing Vans, 

Government Ministers Official Vehicles, Military & Police vehicles on UK roads etc. "

 

 . . and scamera vans!

I'm sure these will be left ticking over all day when on duty - usually the worst scenario for polluting.

And buses.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

And buses.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

Surely they're next to be replaced with CNG or battery.

     I am sure I posted a " message "   re   Difficult to believe Winterkorn   complete with the link for the explanatory article re the defeat software from The Washington Post but I can't see it now. Has it been removed for some reason?

May I steal your 'meme' ? ( at least I think that's what they call it.....the thingy above 'the open road')

Take what you want, it's a free country.  :yes:

That's a good point VAGCF, speculation I know but it cant be that hard to install an efficient remap that maintains power and mpg but reduces emissions. The VW boffins brains must be hunkered in their bunkers working on it right now.

I think owners are concerned about a drop in engine performance and economy because of all the publicity around the issue. If the difference is only slight then how will we know without having a rolling road test. The downside is that some folks will have a test and if there is a drop in 'something' then word will get round that the VW fixes reduces performance or economy which will effect resale values and further tarnish the VAG reputation.

So if the VW fixers and remappers have any 'sense' they should be doing there best to make the remapped engines 'slightly better' in every way thereby making them more desirable and helping to restore the tarnished VW name. Dealers can then genuinely say that VAG cars have all been improved following the fix!

Or am I just being too over optimistic?

 

No, I think the opposite, hence my post.

 

I think it's going to be very hard, if not impossible. As others have said they should be able to lower the N0x and maintain the economy by altering the software but to do that the power part of the equation will suffer. Don't forget that VW had many years to design the original software and part of it needed a cheat so I can't see them coming up with a magic fix in a short time and under immense pressure.

 

Third party mappers don't have a problem of course, they can alter the power and economy as they wish and not have to worry about the emissions part, though that may change! I think the day will come, when MOT's are tightened up and more sensitive test equipment is used with regards to emissions, that engines that had to comply with any of the Euro tests (4, 5 and 6 etc.) will be banned from being remapped in the same way that DPF and Cat. removal has been outlawed.

 

It still goes on of course and I guess MOT testers won't be able to check if there are switchable maps/separate boxes installed.

Edited 25 October, 201510 yr by VAGCF