What is the definition of "low rpm"? Idle (750)? 1000? 1500?

Power and torque values plotted against rpm will change one way or another, and that's an alteration of the car specifications.

Your point may be valid, but if we are not offered power and torque maps AFTER the ECU "fix" we cannot be really sure of what has changed. Even if they are offered, can we trust them for being true?

 

With the acceleration rates required for the EU NEDC tests a modern 2.0 TDi will not need much more than a touch of the throttle.

 

How will you really prove what your engine has now without a dyno run? Some of the engines in question will be approaching 7 years old and could have several 100k miles and be approaching the end of their life. They certainly won't be matching original spec.

 

It's a bit of a minefield.

No one can force owners into doing the update can they?

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No one can force owners into doing the update can they?

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So far it's only compulsory in Germany.

M how long before its compulsary over here. No way owners shud have their cars ruined by liars

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Are some eagles illegal then?

Have they failed emissions tests?

You have to watch them like a Hawk, the crafty little blighters.

I understand that my engine is the one that was the first introduced to the U.S. market in 2008 (pre SCR) and as such is listed (the VIN) on the Skoda recall list.

I expect this 'minimum' fix required to meet our Euro 5 ie an ECU reprogramming to get NOx down and not increase CO2.

 Yes, but in the US the engines had to meet the much stricter emissions regulations laws and hence why the cheat software was installed and activated during testing which VW have held their hands up to.

 

For the less strict Euro 5 regulations VW (have not as yet!) admitted to actually using the cheat software to pass the test nor has it been proven that they have, hence my statement that retesting needs to be carried out (there are plenty of new, unsold Euro 5 spec. cars around!). All they have said is that the software is on millions of cars outside of the US. And as they have said that all that needs to be done to the Euro 5 2.0 litre diesels is remove/replace the software to comply with Type Approval implies that the engine would pass the test without the cheat and therefore your "minimum" fix wouldn't have to do anything to get the N0x down. 

 

But do we believe them? They could be lying about that and the cheat might have been activated during testing and they are hoping to sneakily replace the software on the ECU's during the recall and hope that customers don't notice any change to power and/or fuel consumption. Don't forget that most customers don't frequent forums and many probably wouldn't notice the difference unless it was pretty dramatic. 

 

And hence the reason also for e.g. a magazine to have some testing done pre and post recall.

 

VW have to come up with a fix to satisfy the authorities but I bet that the authorities will be happy as long as the emissions part is met and won't care if customers suffer a small power drop/increased MPG. They will see their job as being done. 

Edited 21 October, 201510 yr by VAGCF

Well my vrs diesel is mapped. 201 bhp at wheels so ill notice quite a bit let alone lose the money i paid for the map if i have recall done

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If cars have been mapped would that have got rid of the cheat software??

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If cars have been mapped would that have got rid of the cheat software??

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Quite possibly not, as it effectively switched to a different map when under test conditions.

Oh i see now. So we am damned if we do and damned if we dont lol

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Yes, but in the US the engines had to meet the much stricter emissions regulations laws and hence why the cheat software was installed and activated during testing which VW have held their hands up to.

 

For the less strict Euro 5 regulations VW (have not as yet!) admitted to actually using the cheat software to pass the test nor has it been proven that they have, hence my statement that retesting needs to be carried out (there are plenty of new, unsold Euro 5 spec. cars around!). All they have said is that the software is on millions of cars outside of the US. And as they have said that all that needs to be done to the Euro 5 2.0 litre diesels is remove/replace the software to comply with Type Approval implies that the engine would pass the test without the cheat and therefore your "minimum" fix wouldn't have to do anything to get the N0x down. 

 

But do we believe them? They could be lying about that and the cheat might have been activated during testing and they are hoping to sneakily replace the software on the ECU's during the recall and hope that customers don't notice any change to power and/or fuel consumption. Don't forget that most customers don't frequent forums and many probably wouldn't notice the difference unless it was pretty dramatic. 

 

And hence the reason also for e.g. a magazine to have some testing done pre and post recall.

 

VW have to come up with a fix to satisfy the authorities but I bet that the authorities will be happy as long as the emissions part is met and won't care if customers suffer a small power drop/increased MPG. They will see their job as being done.

There have been CEOs of the U.S. , Germany and the U.K. paraded by their respective parliamentary investigative bodies and it's now getting difficult to remember who said what when.

But

I do seem to recall the UK CEO of VW (.............) telling the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport, when summoned, a week or so ago, that your/our 2.0 would only need the ECU reprogrammed but the 1.6 needed hardware also.

The fact that they never make any mention of the effects of the 'fix' on power or performance, when they have been happy to promote power and torque in the past, to me at least, is a tacit admission that they don't want to make it easy for any legal responses by making any 'further admissions' other than NOx / CO2 and maintenance of "economy".

I certainly look forward to a pleasant surprise..........but I am "dreamin" unfortunately .

If cars have been mapped would that have got rid of the cheat software??

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The bottom line is that you, nor anyone else, would have never detected the power robbing 'cheat' but it's now back to square one for those who are facing the recall.

For the 'mapped' ones, I'd be talking to those who did it to find out what you should do

Because

If detected by VW, I suspect your legal avenue might be somewhat narrower than others when it comes to an argument in court........you wouldn't neatly fit the 'class action' criteria.

Blimey ye. I never thought of it like that

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Lets see how much Barclays Bank has to lose in VW.

 

 

I found page 10 interesting here.

I take it the Fix for Euro 5 SCR Cars will require VW Updating to the same Software and Hardware as they are revealing here.

http://mk-metalfoils.com/fileadmin/user_upload/emmission_reduktion_at_VW.pdf

 

Ryeman, with regards to your post - I only glanced at this before but I've just read the whole article. Certainly reinforces what you say about diesels in light vehicles getting far too complicated for their own good!

 

If I'd read that before I bought a Euro 6 diesel I may well have bought a petrol! Frightening amount of technology really. And reinforces your views on emissions equipment should have a 10 year expected life. 

Ryeman, with regards to your post - I only glanced at this before but I've just read the whole article. Certainly reinforces what you say about diesels in light vehicles getting far too complicated for their own good!

 

If I'd read that before I bought a Euro 6 diesel I may well have bought a petrol! Frightening amount of technology really. And reinforces your views on emissions equipment should have a 10 year expected life.

They are now working on Particulate Filters for petrol also to come into effect fro some time in 2017/18.

SAE International is something I've managed to subscribe to freely and the latest issue has a vehicle emission control technology article worth digging up if you're interested.

Toyota now say their combustion engine range will be all but extinct by 2050 and their priority is fuel cell NOT battery.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's not earlier.

And been thinking more about the possible fix required if they are found to have been cheating the Euro 5 test. As others have said I can't see how just a change of software can reduce N0x levels without having an affect on power and/or fuel consumption, particularly now I've read that article in detail. I'm no automotive engineer/designer but I'm pretty good at applying logic and common-sense!

 

Laws of physics come into play here and given the complexity and additional systems that have had to be employed in moving from Euro 5 to 6 then there's got to be some hardware added as well as changing the software if the Euro 5 emissions fail to be achieved under test if power and economy is to be retained as before the recall/fix. 

 

This is the last thing that VW want of course, going from a relatively inexpensive fix i.e. software only to a horrendously expensive one. And if VW are in danger of going bust because of this then European governments/bureaucrats may just soften their action?

 

Germany is the only country calling for compulsory recall at the moment but they may change their minds if a software and hardware fix is required and as a result of that VW is crippled?

Edited 21 October, 201510 yr by VAGCF

Ryeman, with regards to your post - I only glanced at this before but I've just read the whole article. Certainly reinforces what you say about diesels in light vehicles getting far too complicated for their own good!

 

If I'd read that before I bought a Euro 6 diesel I may well have bought a petrol! Frightening amount of technology really. And reinforces your views on emissions equipment should have a 10 year expected life.

And now particulate filters are being worked on for PETROL for intro some time around 2017/18 which I seem to recall reading in the latest SAE International which I get as an email for nix........v good read always but a bit technical also - an engineering glimpse into the future with interesting timelines.

It seems as if there is a push to legislate reciprocating engines out of existence .......Toyota says by 2050 with their fuel cell vehicles......and Tesla with their battery vehicles and infrastructure........and as for driving, that too, the way things are going...

Change is accelerating don't forget

^^^^bit of a double-up .....it went missing for some reason

Its really worrying me what to do regarding this recall now. Especially as its mapped and consequences if dont. Just wanted a nice car. Didnt sign up for any of this s^^t

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And now particulate filters are being worked on for PETROL for intro some time around 2017/18 which I seem to recall reading in the latest SAE International which I get as an email for nix........v good read always but a bit technical also - an engineering glimpse into the future with interesting timelines.

It seems as if there is a push to legislate reciprocating engines out of existence .......Toyota says by 2050 with their fuel cell vehicles......and Tesla with their battery vehicles and infrastructure........and as for driving, that too, the way things are going...

Change is accelerating don't forget

 Didn't know much about Tesla until I saw one on a car prog. over here last night. Apart from the cost that is one car that would get me into electric!

 

Only for commuting etc. though, I'd still want my TT with its proper engine for proper driving! 

Didn't know much about Tesla until I saw one on a car prog. over here last night. Apart from the cost that is one car that would get me into electric!

Only for commuting etc. though, I'd still want my TT with its proper engine for proper driving!

If you want INSTANT response with max torque from 0 you'd love electric and with low C of G good cornering and hammering the brakes - power regeneration as well

Plus

Unit cost reduction from ever increasing sales causing affordability and relatively cheap fast-charge infrastructure (compared to fuel cell)

at every fast food outlet (speculation here) what's not good about that.......and then there is newer battery tech on the way (no speculation).

But

Can we trust those in power to NOT put a 'sim' card (with VIN) in our body computer using the car's aerial........in this hazardous time?

It's possible, obviously, so who's tempted?

Technology IS a two-edged sword.

Edited 21 October, 201510 yr by Ryeman

Of course I know Fosters, gnat's deposit it everywhere, are you telling me that it isn't available in Australia?

Haven't a clue, but I seem to recall it's purely an export brand, now owned by a Canadian mob but they have received an 'offer' so who knows at the moment.

If you've got any Glenfiddich however I'm all yours

If you want INSTANT response with max torque from 0 you'd love electric and with low C of G good cornering and hammering the brakes - power regeneration as well

Plus

Unit cost reduction from ever increasing sales causing affordability and relatively cheap fast-charge infrastructure (compared to fuel cell)

at every fast food outlet (speculation here) what's not good about that.......and then there is newer battery tech on the way (no speculation).

But

Can we trust those in power to NOT put a 'sim' card (with VIN) in our body computer using the car's aerial........in this hazardous time?

It's possible, obviously, so who's tempted?

Technology IS a two-edged sword.

 

But what about the environmental impacts of battery production and recycling and power generation - and power transmission losses.  Are electric really that better for the environment or is it just that they don't pollute at point of use and that we conveniently forget the pollution at source?

 

Anyhow - not sure why I keep reading this thread as all it does is annoy me with people fretting and worrying over media hype and the fact that there may or may not be an impacts of something that may or may not happen and may or may not be needed...

But what about the environmental impacts of battery production and recycling and power generation - and power transmission losses.  Are electric really that better for the environment or is it just that they don't pollute at point of use and that we conveniently forget the pollution at source?

 

Anyhow - not sure why I keep reading this thread as all it does is annoy me with people fretting and worrying over media hype and the fact that there may or may not be an impacts of something that may or may not happen and may or may not be needed...

You mean like battery recycling and power generation emissions, I guess?

Well my vrs diesel is mapped. 201 bhp at wheels so ill notice quite a bit let alone lose the money i paid for the map if i have recall done

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same here, I’m on 206 bhp remap now with bigger wheels so I bet if there is any change to the power I will notice that