It's not a matter of removing the cheat, as lowering the NOx levels WITHOUT having to cheat on the test.

It's power has to be lowered as an offset to meet the test requirement Because it won't have the device to get it through.

 

Ryeman, I thought you understood the situation here in Europe? You are talking about the US situation.

 

As far as I'm aware there has been no proof so far that (for the 2.0 litre diesels) that any sort of cheat has been used to pass the Euro 5 regulations and if as VW say they only need the software removing to comply with Type Approval - if it's on the ECU and even if not used it's in contravention of the Type Approval - then there will be no change to the vehicles power, MPG or emissions. Once the software has been removed the engines should perform exactly as they did when tested i.e. pass the lab test but exceed the emissions limit in the real world/on-road, which as I've said elsewhere is no different to most other manufacturers.

 

If it is found (and only retesting will tell us that) that VW are lying about that as well i.e. the cheat software was activated during the lab. emissions testing, then they are in for even more of a kicking as the remedy is very likely to affect performance and/or MPG for the reasons folks have given.

 

What they have said so far for the fix for the 1.6 definitely points the finger at them cheating to achieve a pass. I can think of no other reason for them having to replace injectors etc. That does imply to me that car if retested would fail if the cheat software was removed.

 

Or perhaps it's me that is totally misunderstanding the situation?

Edited 20 October, 201510 yr by VAGCF

VW will probably sell our details to the ' ambulance chasers ' 

It's an export beer that you apparently know all about.

 

Of course I know Fosters, gnat's deposit it everywhere, are you telling me that it isn't available in Australia?

VW will probably sell our details to the ' ambulance chasers ' 

 

VAG have got the addresses from DVSA and are forbidden under Law (Data Protection Act) from passing on the addresses to anyone else.

They were forbidden under law in many countries from installing Defeat Devices.

 

2 Ex Porsche Seniors are about to go on trial for Porsches attempt at taking over VW years back.

 

How secure is the VAG Computer System to hacking now that they hold Registered Keepers details.?

 

PS

Actually how secure is the DVLA's Computer System, or even how accurate is it, ?

because their MOT Checker is total mince.

As I recall, there was a recent article in The Times to the effect that some people were planning to sue Porsche because of an ECU feature that caused the car to hesitate for 2.5 seconds if the driver tried to accelerate hard from 30 MPH - e.g. to overtake a slow moving lorry.

 

I believe that this "feature" has allegedly been incorporated in order to meet some EU directive on "noise pollution". I think that the courts have ruled it to be perfectly legal, fair and reasonable.

   Oh how  I yearn for a car  that  as they were up the 90's, without all this blessed  computerisation. Everything  is now  controlled by software, steering, braking, power distribution, acceleration, lights, w/washers, stop/start, door entry, exhaust emissions. As P M  Major said, back to basics.  And with  a body shape that had some identity of manufacturer, not all cloned as now, many of which look quite ugly. International weirdisms.  Designs of the  50's and 60's were so much better, much more pleasant to the eye. And some of the top speeds now are ridiculous for family cars, 140 mph not unusual , with a speed limit of 70 in UK, elsewhere  no more, some less. No wonder the prices of older , collectable cars are rocketing.

...if it's on the ECU and even if not used it's in contravention of the Type Approval - then there will be no change to the vehicles power, MPG or emissions. Once the software has been removed the engines should perform exactly as they did when tested i.e. pass the lab test but exceed the emissions limit in the real world/on-road...

 

What they have said so far for the fix for the 1.6 definitely points the finger at them cheating to achieve a pass. I can think of no other reason for them having to replace injectors etc. That does imply to me that car if retested would fail if the cheat software was removed.

Firstly, To change car performance without changing hardware you need to remap ECU (including removing cheating device)... mean change maps and other things as EGR rules... That VW 2.0 engine you can put into Euro5 standards by software. Just to perform a fewer fuel injection, more often open EGR and cut top revs... That's will have impact on car performance...

Secondly, Smaller engines have got to big injectors (to have good performance), that's why VW needs to change... Smaller one you can perform better for accuracy fuel into engine... Add to this remap ECU (changing maps and EGR rules) and all will pass Euro5 standards... These will have impact on car performance as well...

 

Finally, Cheating device was active on all engines... It's algorithm in ECU to perform it when something will happen e.g. rolling front wheels without rear wheels.

To sort out emission scandal VW can swich on cheating device permanently... but you can forgot about performance...

Why not wait until the 'fix' has been applied and then see what issues you have with the performance of the car. The next step would be to see what the manufacturer of the car are going to do in regards of compensation etc. If you are not satisfied with the outcome then that is the point where you would take legal advise.

Going to these big shot legal eagles is just going line their pockets.

Or just wait until other owners have had the modifications done and look at their reports.

You can guarantee that one or more of the motor press will buy a used golf and do rolling road tests before and after.

We will know what the mods are and their effect well before you get your own car done.

The Car building Live program on last night with James May was pretty good. It gives a good indication of the infinite possibilities and the fact that nearly all cars arrive as specified is a miracle. There is no wonder they cost what they cost.

It also shows that they do not need to cost what they do cost.

A simple choice of all the sames built on a Line uses all the same raw materials and you could then have Dacia Prices for 

cars that are 'Just what is needed', but 'Just on time' to be bought and delivered the month or even the day you want a new car.

Like when Light Commercials could be bought and where ready to work, and sign write as you wanted.

 

A bit like Volkswagen were going to do with Budget ranges built outside of Europe, which apparently they have now dropped the idea of.

A bit like what Skoda and Seat were when Volkswagen bought them, cars affordable but not only very basic,

and not Premium Models, but anything a bit more special with options were available.

 

VW went a bit far with building the 'sames', they put Defeat Devices in 11 Million 1.2, 1.6 & 2.0 Diesel Euro 5 vehicles World Wide, just so that some were able to pass Emission Testing.

It also shows that they do not need to cost what they do cost.

A simple choice of all the sames built on a Line uses all the same raw materials and you could then have Dacia Prices for 

cars that are 'Just what is needed', but 'Just on time' to be bought and delivered the month or even the day you want a new car.

Like when Light Commercials could be bought and where ready to work, and sign write as you wanted.

 

A bit like Volkswagen were going to do with Budget ranges built outside of Europe, which apparently they have now dropped the idea of.

A bit like what Skoda and Seat were when Volkswagen bought them, cars affordable but not only very basic,

and not Premium Models, but anything a bit more special with options were available.

 

VW went a bit far with building the 'sames', they put Defeat Devices in 11 Million 1.2, 1.6 & 2.0 Diesel Euro 5 vehicles World Wide, just so that some were able to pass Emission Testing.

 

In late 1980's a Mini Metro cost about £7k now a days a small car costs less than that. Energy prices are are double the complexity is off the chart and wages robots etc. Look at every other commodity as a comparison I think cars have done well to hold their prices.

Car Manufacturing Factories like in the North East can use the Renewable Green Energies being Produced North in Scotland & offshore wind farms which they already do,

because it is not being used enough Off Peak by others like Homes / Houses.

 

& as for BL / Rover / Austin car prices.  

That was lots to do with what 'Unions' that had cars costing so much for the Hard Working People.

Because Car Workers were on a different planet income wise from the 'Average' working person.

Hence Manufacturing of High Volume Vehicles in the UK is not by British Owned Companies.

 

 VW Build cars in South Africa and import them to the UK.

Cheap Labour costs & other benefits to allow them to make even bigger profits than from any European Manufacturing.

 

PS

At Launch the 'Metro' was £3,000-£4,300

Car Manufacturing Factories like in the North East can use the Renewable Green Energies being Produced North in Scotland & offshore wind farms which they already do,

because it is not being used enough Off Peak by others like Homes / Houses.

 

& as for BL / Rover / Austin car prices.  

That was lots to do with what 'Unions' that had cars costing so much for the Hard Working People.

Because Car Workers were on a different planet income wise from the 'Average' working person.

Hence Manufacturing of High Volume Vehicles in the UK is not by British Owned Companies.

 

 VW Build cars in South Africa and import them to the UK.

Cheap Labour costs & other benefits to allow them to make even bigger profits than from any European Manufacturing.

 

PS

At Launch the 'Metro' was £3,000-£4,300

 

No, sorry, can't follow that one!

Well read the few posts before it. (but does it matter, just ignore.)

Well read the few posts before it. (but does it matter, just ignore.)

 

I did, but it still doesn't make much sense to a simple chap like me!

oh no, not another one? http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/15/volkswagen-secret-emissions-tool-in-2016-cars-is-separate-from-defeat

btw, 63% of Germans say they still trust V W.

btw, 63% of Germans say they still trust V W.

 

Why shouldn't they?

It's German brand...

Firstly, To change car performance without changing hardware you need to remap ECU (including removing cheating device)... mean change maps and other things as EGR rules... That VW 2.0 engine you can put into Euro5 standards by software. Just to perform a fewer fuel injection, more often open EGR and cut top revs... That's will have impact on car performance...

Secondly, Smaller engines have got to big injectors (to have good performance), that's why VW needs to change... Smaller one you can perform better for accuracy fuel into engine... Add to this remap ECU (changing maps and EGR rules) and all will pass Euro5 standards... These will have impact on car performance as well...

 

Finally, Cheating device was active on all engines... It's algorithm in ECU to perform it when something will happen e.g. rolling front wheels without rear wheels.

To sort out emission scandal VW can swich on cheating device permanently... but you can forgot about performance...

 

Are we saying that rolling front wheels without rolling rear wheels is KNOWN to have been a trigger for the device?  If so, does anyone know whether 4X4 models could be said to have the software on the ECU but for it to be beyond activation in tests?

Why not wait until the 'fix' has been applied and then see what issues you have with the performance of the car. The next step would be to see what the manufacturer of the car are going to do in regards of compensation etc. If you are not satisfied with the outcome then that is the point where you would take legal advise.

Going to these big shot legal eagles is just going line their pockets.

My worry with that approach is that I may be required to sign off as accepting whatever they have done OR are going to do.

As long as my legal options are not prejudiced by signing is what I'd be looking at and that's the first question I'd ask a legal eagle and that's probably what I'll be doing as soon as I get the letter.

Ryeman, I thought you understood the situation here in Europe? You are talking about the US situation.

 

As far as I'm aware there has been no proof so far that (for the 2.0 litre diesels) that any sort of cheat has been used to pass the Euro 5 regulations and if as VW say they only need the software removing to comply with Type Approval - if it's on the ECU and even if not used it's in contravention of the Type Approval - then there will be no change to the vehicles power, MPG or emissions. Once the software has been removed the engines should perform exactly as they did when tested i.e. pass the lab test but exceed the emissions limit in the real world/on-road, which as I've said elsewhere is no different to most other manufacturers.

 

If it is found (and only retesting will tell us that) that VW are lying about that as well i.e. the cheat software was activated during the lab. emissions testing, then they are in for even more of a kicking as the remedy is very likely to affect performance and/or MPG for the reasons folks have given.

 

What they have said so far for the fix for the 1.6 definitely points the finger at them cheating to achieve a pass. I can think of no other reason for them having to replace injectors etc. That does imply to me that car if retested would fail if the cheat software was removed.

 

Or perhaps it's me that is totally misunderstanding the situation?

I understand that my engine is the one that was the first introduced to the U.S. market in 2008 (pre SCR) and as such is listed (the VIN) on the Skoda recall list.

I expect this 'minimum' fix required to meet our Euro 5 ie an ECU reprogramming to get NOx down and not increase CO2.

The issue with these Euro5 2.0 is not a reduction of maximum power and torque.

 

Euro 5 testing is done at low rpm and light throttle settings. All manufacturers map the emission system to be active during the test but not outside these parameters. That's why they output upto 14 times the NOx limit on the road (Volvo D3)

 

So VW will map accordingly. Euro 5 isn't concerned about what is happening on full throttle and at higher rpm. VAG have no reason to lower power at these settings.

 

BUT........

 

At the throttle and rpm settings used during the test can VW retain the throttle response and drivability. Will there be any hesitation at light throttle setting? Will the turbo take longer to spool? These are the real questions and not whether the 140PS version will become a 130PS as it won't, there's no reason to do that to pass Euro 5.

 

Lee

that's the first question I'd ask a legal eagle 

 

Are some eagles illegal then?

Have they failed emissions tests?

The issue with these Euro5 2.0 is not a reduction of maximum power and torque.

 

Euro 5 testing is done at low rpm and light throttle settings.

 

Lee

What is the definition of "low rpm"? Idle (750)? 1000? 1500?

Power and torque values plotted against rpm will change one way or another, and that's an alteration of the car specifications.

Your point may be valid, but if we are not offered power and torque maps AFTER the ECU "fix" we cannot be really sure of what has changed. Even if they are offered, can we trust them for being true?