EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[Ryeman]

Could London fashion itself as the Continent’s tax haven.

The video did talk of going rogue. 

[gadgetman]

35 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

I'd just like to say cheers   And here's to Parliamentary Sovereignty. That thing we never lost.

Thanks to Gina Miller 

[shyVRS245]

2 hours ago, Lee01 said:

Prestige UK market? Dude, you drive a Skoda    
Almost all 'prestige' cars made in the UK go for export. 
This is basic stuff, dude.

Wasn't talking about Jaguar but comparing Infiniti with Volvo, BMW, Audi and Mercedes SUV's which they had to compete with. Blew away S Class coupe on the drive home in my £31,000 Skoda despite the Merc starting at £103,000. Don't think he was expecting an Octavia to have 377NM per tonne of torque which was too much for the Mercedes.

[ColinD]

No matter what goes on in that place, please please please, just keep it civil in this place, no matter the thread

 

There is a balance for us to let you have a say and let you just go full keyboard warrior and all the risks that includes.

 

Passions are high, times unprecedented, views are as polar as ever...

 

Just remember why we're here and continue to be  It's your community

[essexalan]

Bit odd that comment about UK spec cars having lower spec than Germany because the various German manufacturers always used to say that UK cars were more expensive than in Germany because of the higher trim level. Perhaps times have changed I will have to ask my mate from the local Mercedes dealership who by the way did tell me that I can buy a new Merc S class at a heavily discounted price. Having some difficulty in selling them apparently but that is just hearsay. 

[shyVRS245]

47 minutes ago, essexalan said:

Bit odd that comment about UK spec cars having lower spec than Germany because the various German manufacturers always used to say that UK cars were more expensive than in Germany because of the higher trim level. Perhaps times have changed I will have to ask my mate from the local Mercedes dealership who by the way did tell me that I can buy a new Merc S class at a heavily discounted price. Having some difficulty in selling them apparently but that is just hearsay. 

At least £10,000 off any large Audi, BMW or Mercedes. Proves how over-priced these 2 tonne Luxo barges are. They lose £50,000 in the first 3 years, sobering for none company buyers.

[Ryeman]

2 hours ago, essexalan said:

Bit odd that comment about UK spec cars having lower spec than Germany because the various German manufacturers always used to say that UK cars were more expensive than in Germany because of the higher trim level. Perhaps times have changed I will have to ask my mate from the local Mercedes dealership who by the way did tell me that I can buy a new Merc S class at a heavily discounted price. Having some difficulty in selling them apparently but that is just hearsay. 

In Australia, with fairly limited supply, the dealerships wanted the full option models because there was a bigger profit margin per unit sold.

In Germany they’re ‘only’ the same as the taxi fleet.

[Ryeman]

How could TM call a vote on the package with the ‘legal guarantees’ without running it past her AG first?.

What the hell is going on in the UK !?

 

or is this all about power plotting?

Edited 13 March, 2019 by Ryeman

[Ryeman]

You will lose your ‘point-of-entry’ for US investors seeking equity in the European Union via english speaking London.

The winner is Putin.

[essexalan]

2 hours ago, Ryeman said:

How could TM call a vote on the package with the ‘legal guarantees’ without running it past her AG first?.

What the hell is going on in the UK !?

 

or is this all about power plotting?

Considering the amount of time that the AG has spent negotiating recently then I would have thought that he knew exactly what May was dealing with and briefed her accordingly. 

More smoke and mirrors.

[gadgetman]

8 hours ago, essexalan said:

Having some difficulty in selling them apparently but that is just hearsay. 

All car dealers are struggling. 

 

Some hefty discounts everywhere if you look, not just German stuff 

[essexalan]

19 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

All car dealers are struggling. 

 

Some hefty discounts everywhere if you look, not just German stuff

Can only report on what I have seen or heard about and I am not looking at the moment. If true then lots of dealers will be closing up or switching to cheaper cars from elsewhere. Japanese cars will be no more expensive in the UK but EU cars will be 10% more expensive, if any trade deals are ever concluded with Japan and S. Korea then their cars will get cheaper still and EU cars could be priced out of the market. 

[@Lee]

Quote

Guidance

MFN and tariff quota rates of customs duty on imports if the UK leaves the EU with no deal

Published 13 March 2019

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/temporary-rates-of-customs-duty-on-imports-after-eu-exit/mfn-and-tariff-quota-rates-of-customs-duty-on-imports-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

 

Quote

Temporary tariff regime for no deal Brexit published

Government has published details of the UK’s temporary tariff regime for no deal, designed to minimise costs to business and consumers while protecting vulnerable industries.

Published 13 March 2019

From:

HM Treasury, Department for International Trade, George Hollingbery, and The Rt Hon Mel Stride MP

 

Quote

Notes to editors

• It is not possible to leave things as they are:
• If we maintained our current external tariff regime and applied it to the EU, this would impose new tariffs on EU imports, driving up prices for consumers and disrupting business supply chains.
• If we fully maintained zero tariffs with the EU, we would also have to extend this to the rest of the world due to WTO rules. This would minimise disruption to EU trade but would open the UK to competition from other countries including those with unfair trading practices.
• link to guidance
• The UK’s temporary tariff regime does not affect our ability to implement trade remedies measures to protect UK businesses from unfair trading practices such as ‘dumping’. The UK will retain 43 existing EU trade remedies measures which involves applying additional tariffs to imports from specific countries.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/temporary-tariff-regime-for-no-deal-brexit-published

 

preferential-mfn-and-quota-rates-of-customs-duty.xlsx

[moley]

The EU now gearing up for the UK leaving without a deal now that MP's have rejected the best deal the EU were able to offer.

[Ryeman]

Parachutists do it for the thrill but there’s actually nothing wrong with the aircraft and you don’t blame the pilot if things go awry.

[Ootohere]

The Parachute Regiment and Special Forces or Government approved Mercenaries etc do it because they were ordered to.

Peace Making, defending or invading other countries to support the governments, regimes, dictators robbing the people blind.

Those will be the kind of 650 muppets that voted last night and will vote again, regardless of the will of the people that elected them.

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, Skoffski said:

The Parachute Regiment and Special Forces or Government approved Mercenaries etc do it because they were ordered to.

Peace Making, defending or invading other countries to support the governments, regimes, dictators robbing the people blind.

Those will be the kind of 650 muppets that voted last night and will vote again, regardless of the will of the people that elected them.

Looks like Scotland and NI will get their independence then George seeing they want to stay in..........?

[Ootohere]

Who are Northern Ireland or the population of Northern Ireland looking to get independence from?

Looks like Scotland might not be Independent from the EU, but then voters in Scotland never voted to as a majority, same as they never voted to be independent from the Ro UK.

[Lady Elanore]

14 hours ago, Lee01 said:

I'd just like to say cheers   And here's to Parliamentary Sovereignty. That thing we never lost.

 

 

 

...and we can eat them first 

[S00perb]

The big problem with UK politics is that we don't actually have democracy and we don't know how to engage with it when we do have democracy.

We (or should I say SOME people) vote for a local MP

That MP may, or may not be in the winning party

The winning party can bear little resemblance to actual percentage of the UK vote. Certainly percentage of vote has no bearing on percentage of power - its a winner takes all system.

The MP you voted for may or may not end up in the government - very little chance really

If the MP is not in the winning party he/she usually has very little say in the running of the country - so thinking your vote was wasted is a common belief

Even if your MP IS in the winning party, unless made prime minister - usually has to vote the way he/she is told - so your vote is..... see above

Even if your MP becomes PM - he/she usually runs the country the way Rupert Murdock frightens them into running it. - so your vote.. see above

In short - that is not democracy - its a complicated form of dictatorship with outside influences by an unelected news mogul who gets his money from? Well we just don't know..

BUT

For once, the government hasn't been running things the way the PM wants it to. This is very rare.

And it came about via another very rare event. The people getting a real vote on something. BUT, the something made no sense. Brexit means Brexit - makes NO linguistic sense. In or OUT makes no linguistic sense. You have to be specific if you want to communicate something. You have to make it crystal clear exactly what you mean. What the choice is between. So the vote meant one thing to one person and another to someone else.

What KIND of Brexit people wanted was never properly established. 10 brexiteers in a room can not agree on what they want, what they can gain by it or how to go about it. And lets face it - those are truly valid and basic questions. Without those questions answered, no one knows what the hell people actually want. You could say 'they want change' - well who the hell doesn't!! But you have to state exactly what you want the change to be, what it will bring, how to get there and what everyone will benefit and/or lose by it.

 

SO the mandate given to parliament was a bit vague to put it mildly. And of course a vague mandate is going to be a problem. For once MPs get a real vote on something. But no one is clear WHAT exactly. YOUR MP counts for once, but doesn't know what to do. The very foundations the decision needs to be based on were never clearly laid down!

 

The government, meanwhile, carried on like it was running the show as normal. TM went ahead and negotiated on her own terms like the government had an overall majority as usual, like she was the dictator PMs usually are. Could she not count or was she too blind to see that it just wasn't going to work that way any-more?

 

The fact that parliament did not decide, or rather was never consulted about, what kind of Brexit it wanted before negotiations began - even when everyone knew MPs would have the final say on any resulting deal, is the final reason that last nights vote went the way it did.

 

Dictators can make decisions without discussing facts. That just doesn't work when real democracy comes into play. REAL democracy requires a far better grasp of engaging with facts than the UK government usually has to deal with. You have to leave 2 party black or white politics behind and deal with grey, factual, detailed negotiations. The UK looks at things as if they are right or wrong, no 3rd way, no meeting of minds or best of all ideas. Its called cooperation. Its real democracy when everyone's opinions are taken into account, not just the winners opinions.

 

The conversation should start with what we mean by certain words and phrases; get agreement on that first. Then go onto what we agree on regarding a certain topic. I bet on this thread there are people that agree on far more than 90% of this issue. What remains can be dealt with via compromise.

 

And so endith todays sermon. We will now sing hymn number 42,

Full English Brexit

 

My neighbours don't drink at the local
Or have kippers for breakfast like me
The food that they eat smells disgusting
They'd rather drink coffee than tea

It's true that their kids are respectful
They gave me their seat on the bus
But it's just that there's so many of them
That I fear what will become of us

I'm not racist, all I want is
To make things how they used to be
But change is strange and
Nobody's listening to me

I cheered when our side won the Cold War
Spread freedom and peace all around
Now there's folks speaking Russian in Tesco's
It's a shame the wall had to come down

I know some are fleeing from war zones
To keep their young children from harm
But my parents stayed put through the Blitz years
And me? I was sent to a farm

Yeah the sun shines, but sometimes
I don't feel like this is my country
But to say so? Oh no
I never get no sympathy

Once we ruled over an empire
So it feels like some kind of defeat
To comply with rules drawn up by strangers
And measure in metres not feet

We don't want to go but by Jingo
If we can't be in charge, then we must
But don't be offended, dear neighbour
It's not you: this is all about us

But it's alright, alright
I think I've found a remedy
Yes it's alright, gonna be alright
It's a full English Brexit for me

 

Lyrics by Rev Billy Bragg

 

 

 

Edited 13 March, 2019 by S00perb

[gadgetman]

4 hours ago, moley said:

The EU now gearing up for the UK leaving without a deal now that MP's have rejected the best deal the EU were able to offer.

Which is why the hardliners like Mogg are quickly back peddling to accept May's deal after voting it down. 

 

Saw on the news earlier a stat that not a single brexiteer voted for May's deal, yet plenty of remain did. 

 

So who isn't honouring the vote? The very people demanding the result is respected and upheld! 

 

You really couldn't make it up 

[moley]

Barnier not sure if there is any point in extending Brexit beyond 29th of March. He think no deal is more likely. 

[S00perb]

6 minutes ago, moley said:

Barnier not sure if there is any point in extending Brexit beyond 29th of March. He think no deal is more likely. 

 

An extension is not as simple as MPs voting for it. The press seems a little lacking in pointing this out. Every single member of the EU must agree to an extension (they barely have time to ask all members to agree an extension)

Not sure of the legal ramifications of MPs voting for no hard exit but EU not accepting extension.

Is the no hard exit a legaly binding vote?

Anyone know?

If so, Art 50 would have to be cancelled in the situation that EU said no to extension

If the above is the case - guess who decides if the UK stays? Any EU member that decides not to grant the extension! An outcome I would obviously be happy with, but ironically quite clearly a very undemocratic method of keeping the UK in the EU.

 

 

 

 

[S00perb]

ROFL

Quote

Theresa May says she understands 'the voice of the country'

She is the only one that does then - she must be a strange psychic - she knows that but not how the vote was going to go yesterday

She also says she is going to vote against a no deal exit - so she isn't quite mad

 

Edited 13 March, 2019 by S00perb

[essexalan]

Only way to avoid no deal Brexit is to have a deal in place or revoke Article 50. Tonight's vote  has no legal impact on the default which is leave on the 29th with no deal, EU law overides UK domestic law. 

Revoking Article 50 would have to be done via due democratic process, a vote in Parliament. Sure the EU would be quite happy to extend Article 50 if it involved just such an act perhaps May should ask the EU what it is worth for the UK to stay  Of course if the vote goes all wrong tonight, or right depending on your views, then we will be heading for a no deal anyway Parliament will have decided.