Diesel and VW Group

[philpix]

Not withstanding Dieselgate and all that coverup nonsense I find it confusing why VW Group still push diesel engines in their passenger cars.

The have hinted that diesel is not the future for their cars and that petrol hybrid and all electric vehicles is VW Group's future.

Diesel will be outlawed in the near future when cities ban oil burners. A diesel scrapage scheme has already been muted.

 

[tigermad]

So should everyone cancel their orders for new Diesels. Why not just stop the sales now. Are the resale values going to plummet on new ones?

Edited 13 February, 2017 by tigermad

[philpix]

My personal observation tigermad.

it was my choice to ditch diesel. I'm more than happy with that.

[Speedman]

How is diesel going to be dropped when every coach, lorry, bus etc use it? Agree the current press might hurt resale values.

[psycholist]

In the long term both diesel and petrol are on the way out (Even for HGVs), but given there still isn't a single affordable electric car on the market that can match a Superb for cargo and passenger space, towing capacity or even A road overtaking, and not a single electric car that can be trusted to give even half the range, there's no fear of second hand Superbs being hard to sell any time soon...

[philpix]

12 minutes ago, Speedman said:

How is diesel going to be dropped when every coach, lorry, bus etc use it? Agree the current press might hurt resale values.

I said in my post passenger vehicles not trucks.

[roughrider10]

2 hours ago, philpix said:

Not withstanding Dieselgate and all that coverup nonsense I find it confusing why VW Group still push diesel engines in their passenger cars.

The have hinted that diesel is not the future for their cars and that petrol hybrid and all electric vehicles is VW Group's future.

Diesel will be outlawed in the near future when cities ban oil burners. A diesel scrapage scheme has already been muted.

 

Diesels cars will be around for a while yet, still a good all round vehicle and diesel returns far better fuel consumption than a petrol, agree with the other posts, electric vehicles have a long way to go before they can match the range of either diesel or petrol.

 

Dont get me wrong, have no issues with petrol and if they could give the same level of MPG as a diesel i would consider one, both my company 2.0 TDi Octavia and my 2.0 TDI Superb have been excellent, people say that diesels sound like a tractor, I would disagree with that, both of my Diesels are quiet even just idling at tick over, job to tell the difference.

 

As for diesels bans within city centres, well for me thats not an issue, I cannot remember the last time I drove into the centre of town, car parks are often overflowing or there are no spaces available, and to be honest parking in a city centre is just asking for some **** to ding your car, not for me I'm afraid.

 

When we are on holiday we have found that most major cities and some smaller towns operate Park & Ride, this has been a god send, parking is far more civilised and the spaces between vehicles much better so less chance of vehicle damage.

 

As for the environment, well i don't see the diesel as a major issue, I'm sure that North Korea and the Russians will soon destroy the planet long before a Diesel engine can cause any significant damage.

 

So would I buy another Diesel, hell yea !!!!!!!!

 

[philpix]

Of course diesel fumes are a problem they are killers,but I kinda guessed this sort of reaction. Enjoy your adblue.

[Breezy_Pete]

What's wrong with killing city-dwellers?

[langers2k]

1 hour ago, philpix said:

Of course diesel fumes are a problem they are killers,but I kinda guessed this sort of reaction. Enjoy your adblue.

 

So are petrol fumes, especially with the particulate matter on the rise since the introduction of GDI engines.

 

Anyway, the answer is very simple. Diesels are still on sale as people are still buying them, it would be daft to stop making them while it's profitable.

 

I don't think this is MK3 Superb specific so you might want to ask a mod to move it to general car chat.

 

 

[roughrider10]

2 hours ago, philpix said:

Of course diesel fumes are a problem they are killers,but I kinda guessed this sort of reaction. Enjoy your adblue.

I don't have Adblue on my 2.0TDI Octavia or my Superb my friend, and we are all entitled to our opinions, so you are free to put out your point of view, but there are evils with both Diesel and Petrol engines emissions as we all know.

 

I love the concept of a pure electrically driven vehicle, instant torque from the electric motor etc, smooth, quiet, but we need it to have at least a 200 to 300 mile range, until this is achievable we are stuck with the internal combustion engine, lets hope that battery technology progresses at lightning speed, that will be better for all of us.

[chimaera]

Short term, there's still significant demand for petrol and diesel cars. Battery electric is becoming viable, but only Tesla are offering decent range and they're still pretty aspirational in pricing terms. Electric is now a good option for short-medium range travel in areas with good charging infrastructure, but longer distance travel, and travel where access to charging infrastructure is limited, is still the realm of internal combustion. As long as various forms of car taxation depend on CO2 emissions diesel will be popular among buyers.

 

It's hard to find concrete information on it, but Euro 7 emissions regulations are likely to refocus on CO2 emissions without putting much additional pressure on NOx* - I'd find it hard to see anything other than hybrids getting through Euro 7 and manufacturers may well take the view at that point to scale back on diesel for heavy hybridisation of petrol engines.

 

*The changes to testing protocols being introduced through later phases of Euro 6 coupled with better enforcement are expected to make meaningful inroads into air quality problems due to NOx

[lol-lol]

11 hours ago, chimaera said:

Short term, there's still significant demand for petrol and diesel cars. Battery electric is becoming viable, but only Tesla are offering decent range and they're still pretty aspirational in pricing terms. Electric is now a good option for short-medium range travel in areas with good charging infrastructure, but longer distance travel, and travel where access to charging infrastructure is limited, is still the realm of internal combustion. As long as various forms of car taxation depend on CO2 emissions diesel will be popular among buyers.  It's hard to find concrete information on it, but Euro 7 emissions regulations are likely to refocus on CO2 emissions without putting much additional pressure on NOx* - I'd find it hard to see anything other than hybrids getting through Euro 7 and manufacturers may well take the view at that point to scale back on diesel for heavy hybridisation of petrol engines. *The changes to testing protocols being introduced through later phases of Euro 6 coupled with better enforcement are expected to make meaningful inroads into air quality problems due to NOx

 

The new Renault Zoe offers range close to the Tesla (200 miles) and with much more charging points.

 

The financial sense for the Zero emission Zoe is increasingly making sense as taxation punishes all other cars except Zero emission ones.  Lease deal costs are falling for the Zoe and are rising for just about everything else and prices rise as the vast majority of cars we buy are not made in the UK and the currency exchange rate is forcing a steep rise in Retail prices, cost of finance and PCP deals and although diesel and petrol have gone up 20% in the last year electricity has gone up half or less than that.       

 

It is clear the direction is only EVs and to the exclusion of hybrids etc as well.  The choice of EVs will extend further with the battery etc going into other models.  As more car users realise they can run a EV car for less than 20p a mile all in but cannot run an internal combustion engine cars for less than 25p a mile, and the charging becomes easier than filling a car with fuel then EVs will become the default choice and IC engined cars is becoming the non-standard choice because the driver needs to drive more than 200 miles in one go and has little practical opportunity to charge up for whatever reason ie route/schedule which outweigh the extra cost.

 

To be fair to VW, and God knows they have given us plenty of reason not to be with them, they have stated that they did not see a future for small diesel engines in their cars as the direct injection turbo petrols have got much closer to diesels in terms of real world economy and their costs are higher to build, increasingly so with the need to add SCR systems to them.  But on the Continent particularly with diesel sometimes costing less than petrol by 10% or so that has leaned driver towards diesel.  In the UK with diesel costing more than petrol and all the issues with emission systems the case is less convincing and with my current company they give the choice whereas previous one was instructed to have a diesel, change thankfully. Science might provide a remedy but at present the plan is to tax non EVs heavily enough to make them the default choice.      

[Aspman]

VW needs to recoup investment in the cars and engines they have developed. They'll have to make and sell a large number of diesel cars just to break even. For drivers doing lots of miles diesel still makes sense and will continue to make sense even if charges go up.

 

Electric might be the future but we haven't got generating capacity to cope with a large scale switch to electric at the moment.

 

What we'll probably see is a switch in urban areas from small diesels to small petrol cars. That's a good thing for everyone since diesel just isn't suited to the stop start driving in built up areas.

 

And lots of current diesels don't have or need ad blue to meet the emissions standard (as tested).

Edited 14 February, 2017 by Aspman

[lol-lol]

Just now, Aspman said:

VW needs to recoup investment in the cars and engines they have developed. They'll have to make and sell a large number of diesel cars just to break even. For drivers doing lots of miles diesel still makes sense and will continue to make sense even if charges go up.   Electric might be the future but we haven't got generating capacity to cope with a large scale switch to electric at the moment.  And lots of current diesels don't have or need ad blue to meet the emissions standard (as tested).

 

I think it is a multi-pronged attack and the EV charging will be mainly done in the Economy 7 period of approximately 11pm to 6 am using nuclear base load, renewables tidal/wind and even imported electricity from French Nuclear EDF etc. Hopefully this project will be adding power soon...

http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/ .   Also moving to consuming less by way of more home insulation and changes in our lighting to LED as well as the warmer climate we are getting will mean less power usage by homes and EVs work better in warmer weather though Norway manages with EV/plug ins..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway

 

By Mariordo (Mario Roberto Durán Ortiz) - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=30612508

 

Their goal (to be followed by other nations?)...

Goals for 2018-2029[edit]

In February 2016, the government opened for public discussion until 1 July 2016 the proposed National Transport Plan 2018-2029 (NTP). The plan explains that the transportation sector accounts for emissions of about 16.5 million tons of CO₂, which is about one third of the total greenhouse gas emissions produced domestically in Norway. And road traffic, including both private cars and heavy vehicles, account for about 10 million tons of CO₂. The NTP set policies and actions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from private cars, trucks, ships, aircraft and construction equipment by about one half until 2030.^[42][43]

In order to achieve this objective, among others, the NTP sets the goal that all new cars, buses and light commercial vehicles in 2025 should be zero emission vehicles, this is, all-electric and hydrogen vehicles. By 2030, heavy-duty vans, 75% of new long-distance buses, and 50% of new trucks must be zero emission vehicles.

 

[SWBoy]

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

and the charging becomes easier than filling a car with fuel then EVs will become the default choice     

Will charging an EV ever be as fast as filling up with petrol/diesel i.e. less than 5 minutes?

[lol-lol]

16 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

Will charging an EV ever be as fast as filling up with petrol/diesel i.e. less than 5 minutes?

 

Quicker.  

Look at the top of the bus shelter and the bus. 

It charges the bank of Super-capacitors rather than the LMP batteries mainly.

Tech is there just needs rolling out which we are doing for cars and maybe buses too.

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Plugging in and unplugging can be as fast as standing at a pump filling a tank.

You do not have to be there while the charging is going on.

The issue is enough range to get you to where you want to be going and then plugging in the vehicle.

Like maybe 5 hours driving before you stop, ie 250 miles or so. 

[threadbear]

Where I work, we have 3 car parks for commuters/ passengers with around 800 spaces. Full of brand new Range/ Land Rovers, Various VAG TDis and Beemers and the full assortment of motoring delights you are able to buy. I reckon I've seen one Leaf and Zoe. EV has a long way to go if a rough survey of our station car park in anything to go by. 

[Aspman]

Necessity is the mother of invention.

 

Ranges will increase and charging will get quicker. Because there is a demand. 

Just look at Tesla. It's the Merc S Class of electrics, what you see there will be mainstream in 5yr.

 

I have a vision......

 

In your garage you have a Tesla Powerwall style battery. It charges up during the day from solar cells and at night from cheap rate electricity. It holds 2 full recharges of your ev. It charges constantly until full so the draw is relatively low.

When you come home you plug in to it, the connection between the wall battery and car is fast (lets ignore my ignorance of high energy electrics and assume there is a way) and charges the car in 2-5hr. 

 

Out and about you're as reliant on supermarket charging as ever but you know that at home you have a charge or two ready all the time.

[Ootohere]

For those with Double Garages or Driveways you just need the 2 vehicles, and many already have that and more.

The one you go Tramping in for work or with the family, maybe towing the Horse Box, Speed boat / yacht, caravan, car transporter, 

and that can now be a Tesla or something else not necessarily a diesel anymore.

Then the one that runs around locally costing near nothing in fuelling and zero in VED.

 

Its horses for courses and the Governments Tax & Benefits Incentives to what gets you a vehicle to do the job or just what pleases you.

What ever they do they should do 'road charging' by the weight of vehicle entering towns and cities and how many are in a vehicle.

Light Vehicle with one or two people cheaper than a heavy one with one or 2 people.

They have the ANPR in place or supposedly do for the VED, so all 'The Manufacturers Data, Weights & Measures.'

and they have road sensors already on roads, just roll out more of these.

 

DOH,

Fat / big people in vehicles will get charged more in small 2 seater City Cars in Cities. 

Big Heavy or Longer cars in cities should be charged more anyway when under occupied. IMO.

[lol-lol]

6 hours ago, threadbear said:

Where I work, we have 3 car parks for commuters/ passengers with around 800 spaces. Full of brand new Range/ Land Rovers, Various VAG TDis and Beemers and the full assortment of motoring delights you are able to buy. I reckon I've seen one Leaf and Zoe. EV has a long way to go if a rough survey of our station car park in anything to go by. 

 

The new office we have just moved in to has about 100 parking spaces and ten have EV charging points and they are right by the front of the building rather than round the back.   This is true for Supermarkets and car parks that the EVs get the prime parking space which is another advantage.   Some supermarkets do not even charge for the charge or parking if you are an EV.  In London you can get in to spaces that are just for EVs, if you are not an EV you get nicked....

 

Several cities have more charge points than petrol pumps now and part of my company, Source London, are adding hundreds of charge points per day....

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/  

 

 

[chimaera]

The challenge for public rapid charging is providing enough power into the site. A large motorway service station might need 20 or 30 charging points to satisfy demand (I'm considering 2x to 3x multiple of the number of liquid fuel pumps that's typical in current sites). If you consider that a rapid charger is 50 kW, then you need up to 1.5 MW into the site to keep those charging points running at peak. Having something like the Tesla supercharger battery packs onsite to dampen out demand might help but I could still see these sites needing significant power supplies in order to cope.

 

It's not an insurmountable problem, but not one that can be ignored either.

[SWBoy]

16 hours ago, chimaera said:

The challenge for public rapid charging is providing enough power into the site. A large motorway service station might need 20 or 30 charging points to satisfy demand (I'm considering 2x to 3x multiple of the number of liquid fuel pumps that's typical in current sites). If you consider that a rapid charger is 50 kW, then you need up to 1.5 MW into the site to keep those charging points running at peak. Having something like the Tesla supercharger battery packs onsite to dampen out demand might help but I could still see these sites needing significant power supplies in order to cope.

 

It's not an insurmountable problem, but not one that can be ignored either.

And who is going to pay for providing those charging stations? The Government will claim they can't afford it, so it will need to be private companies who will want to make a profit. To me that sounds like charging will have to be something that the driver will pay for (cost of electricity plus contribution to cost of site plus profit).

 

And then there's time to charge issue - it currently takes around 5 minutes to fill and pay with petrol or diesel, if it takes longer than that to charge (and pay) then many more charging stations will be required than current fuel pumps. A typical motorway filling station may have 20 pumps so if charging takes even as little as 15 minutes it will require 60 charging stations - which will need a LOT of (expensive) land. OK supercapacitors can greatly reduce the charging time, but will substantially add to the weight of a vehicle, will need to be packaged somewhere (which will probably increase the size of the vehicle and hence add more weight) and supercapacitors use not insubstantial amounts of rare earth materials which are in very limited supply (hence why they're called rare earths) and hence expensive - and most of which are bought from China.

 

The challenges of providing sufficient generating capacity, limiting the losses in the electricity distribution network (more visibly intrusive and expensive copper overhead lines?) and charging infrastructure should not be underestimated - there simply isn't a quick fix. Time is needed to develop long-term viable solutions (which can be done, Mankind is a very inventive animal) but in the meantime we mustn't destroy the mobility upon which First World cultures depend by making fossil fuelled vehicles unusable or priced out of reach of the average working person.

Edited 15 February, 2017 by SWBoy

[Ootohere]

Luckily we have all the time in the world, just as long as we do not die the day after tomorrow.

Only Trump knows how long we might have then.