Fuel Leak!

[Breezy_Pete]

I give up. Use stainless steel everywhere you like.

[rum4mo]

1 hour ago, Wino said:

I give up. Use stainless steel everywhere you like.

 

Honestly I really don't understand where you are coming from here, and I'm being truthful, I've read through all my postings and at no point that I can find did I suggest that any old stainless steel is just the job - which is what you effectively wrote in an earlier posting when you suggested that I was handing out dangerous advice.

 

I own and run a car with this potential dangerous issue, I am very concerned about this and not just dipping in with dangerous suggestions, I think that you have mis read something some where in this thread and are now trying to duck out, not clever.

[Breezy_Pete]

You've spent a lot of time and words trying to justify your use of the term 'stainless steel' for fasteners that aren't.  I just pointed out that stainless steel is not what you should be searching for.

 

So just get your new bolts (of the correct part number and therefore right material and strength) fitted.  Then you can stop worrying.

[rum4mo]

I think that you are slighted confused about this,  there are quite a few  places on these cars where fixings that are made from a metallic material or alloy that does not rust/corrode are used, most people would just call these items stainless steel - which is what the fixings supply industries are also calling them collectively - nothing more like tensile strength can be taken from that description in the same way as for any other metal/steel fixings are used elsewhere - but no one, apart from you need to be sticking strength or lack of strength labels to different versions in a bid to keep everyone safe.

 

What else would you expect anyone else to do when illogical challenges were being made about what they had written, do you really expect that you can jump in and make a statement and expect others to "behave"? Life does not need to be like this, stop digging.

[Breezy_Pete]

Ignore list for you. You just can't stop digging your own hole.

[rum4mo]

Just to tidy up what I said that I was going to do,  Bumax replied to my enquiry and stated that their Ultra versions of all fixings are only manufactured to special order, ie no stock held.

 

What they did suggest was their "88" version which is by tensile strength equivalent to an 8.8 carbon steel item, they also provide a "109" version which is by tensile strength equivalent to 10.9 carbon steel bolts.

 

Their 10.9 Stainless Steel offering is :-    4762A406016109              BUMAX 109 ISO 4762 Socket Head Cap Screw M6 x 16   and comes in boxes of 100 bolts.  They have also given me details of my local Bumax distributor who is located in Aberdeen so I will contact them to see if they sell these items in split batches as Bumax can not as every box is sold with traceability, I've found in the past that  some times resellers do split boxes to allow individuals to buy in smaller quantities - ie provide a different type of service to the occasional user.

 

So I'll see how this goes, as I said much earlier, I am only planning on replacing this bolts with higher strength bolts in a bid to walk away from this potential problem, so this action is as I said earlier, just me applying a "sticking plaster" and not trying to dig down to the root cause of these bolt failure - that would take a lot more  time and effort and I want to move on from this ASAP.

[rum4mo]

I have tried to find a re-sellers of Bumax items without any success, I can very easily buy a box of 100 Bumax 109 M6 X 16 hex socket cap head screws for £80 from my nearest Bumax distributer but as yet I am unwilling to sink £80 into what for me will be 4 screws that are higher strength that those used by VW Group, I know this sounds like I'm putting a price cap on this fix and if these bolts currently fitted to this Polo fail and the car needs "AA'd" to a VW dealer - to make a point or a good local VAG Indie, the final cost including labour and the complete new set of injector seals, will cost a lot more than that. If/when I do replace these screws I will just depressurise the fuel rail and replace these screws one by one, using an assembly paste or suitable low strength Loctite  to prevent galling or slackening.  If there were 3 or more other people around to share these bolts and their cost with, it would be a different situation, but I am so far alone here with trying to keep one step ahead of this issue, so I'm stuck with sitting on this for the time being.

 

I can very easily understand why the official distributers for Bumax will not split up boxes for selling as these fixings are high quality and certified box by box, all traceability is lost when a box is then split between customers and as the main user of this quality of fixings is subsea, then traceability will always be required hence my quest to identify a re-seller who is selling to a completely different type of customer.

[J.R.]

10.9 grade is standard for proper branded socket head cap screws used in toolmaking, Unbrako used to be the reference make when I was a tool designer but we are talking 40 years ago.

 

If you can find a supplier of fixings to toolmakers, proper engineers etc, even race engine builders then what you are looking for is a standard size, you just have to have the faith in the manufacturer & that its not a generic fastener made of cheese.

 

I have a mixed box of assorted cap screws which will definitely have the size you want but it came from somewhere like Toolstation & was made in China, I have more chance of looking like George Clooney than they have of being 10.9 grade.

[rum4mo]

Oh yes Unbrako has worked for me when I worked. My only beef was when jig designers, who were very aware where these jigs were being bolted onto, electro dynamic shaker headers and slip tables, and the fact that these jigs would be getting removed many many times, ended up  designing them with counter bored holes with depths that meant lots and lots of bolts needed cutting down from standard lengths, complete nonsense.

 

I could quite easily use 10.9 Unbrako to replace these bolts that are holding the fuel rail on to the alloy cylinder head - if the access to them was easier, but I'm trying to replicate the choice that VW Group wrt them not being high carbon steel, as I'm sure they picked them to be that for a reason. Locating some Nord Lock washers might be an idea to avoid these bolts slackening off and using a suitable paste to avoid galling - but at the moment I don't know what the clearance is in these 4 points which are just lugs or flanges welded to the fuel rail tube. A DIYer can take an "overkill" approach where a manufacturer must stay within safe/cheap price margins and stick with keeping the assembly easy and fast in the engine plants.

 

 

[DaveJB]

Hi, I have a 66  plate 1.4 petrol Octavia and I have just had the same issue with mine leaking petrol. As with others mine is just out of the used car warranty and the Skoda dealer hasn't offered any help. I will try and ring Skoda UK on Monday. The independent garage has stripped it down and found one bolt has sheared off and another is loose. The car has done just over 40k and was serviced by skoda in February. The independent garage has also said that there are signs that rail has had something pushed against it as if it was used to leaver something else off. I have read all of the posts but it looks like there have been a few reported on the past 6 months.

[m1kemex]

On 16/01/2020 at 13:59, rum4mo said:

Okay, so that is now 3 Briskoda members with 2016-2017 VW Group 1.2TSI - so far all 110PS engine versions if that really does mean anything - I'd doubt it, with this potentially serious and car occupant safety issue, hum!

 

I feel now and again that I should chat to local VW dealership about this as my wife has a 2015 Polo 1.2TSI 16V 110PS - but I think that they will stone wall me as all I'm quoting or using is normal internet chatter and the subject cars are all Skodas and so will have Skoda built engines in them - me letting them into the secret that all these engines of that family were built in Skoda factories will count for nothing.

 

All I'm trying to discover is if this issue only covered a short engine build period - Skoda should find that easy to work out as they built all these engines, and to be told what recovery action(s) were taken, down to the finer detail ie did they change the M6 X 16mm Torx headed bolts supplier, or did they change the bolt strength/quality? If they did, I don't mind buying and fitting a new improved set of bolts, to me that sounds better than having any car my family are in ending up going on fire for a known fault/failure.

 

This sort of thing sounds a lot like it should have ended up as a formal safety recall - or maybe only a "when its in for service action" - which is extremely naughty if it does end up being the best that VW Group will be offering for this fault/failure.

 

My 2017 SEAT Toledo MK IV (110 HP 1.2 TSI) built by Skoda just began leaking fuel from under the bonnet.

 

I did a short trip in the morning and returned home as normal. Then, in the afternoon, I tried to start the car again. It took like 2 seconds for the starter to finally begin ignition. With the motor running the EPC light stayed on so I quickly turned off the engine, only to find the same behavior when I tried again. Since the car seemed to be running fine despite the initial delay and the light, I moved the car outside to close the garage door. However, as I stepped out I begin to notice the gasoline smell and confirmed it when I took a look at the car from outside. It did leak quite a bit; there was a generous puddle where the car was parked and a path up to the next location. All in under one minute.

 

I've never had a fuel leak before on any of my cars so I must admit that I sort of panicked (it's quite a fire hazard! Good thing it was cold). I decided to do nothing (not even take a look at the engine bay) and just take it to the dealer. I'm going to do so tomorrow and see what happens. But I'll make sure to bring a printed copy of this post in case they make excuses.

[Breezy_Pete]

Just to clarify, when you say "take it to the dealer" do you mean drive it?

I don't think you should do that, for your own safety and that of other road users. Phone and get them to collect the vehicle.

[m1kemex]

15 minutes ago, Wino said:

Just to clarify, when you say "take it to the dealer" do you mean drive it?

I don't think you should do that, for your own safety and that of other road users. Phone and get them to collect the vehicle.

No way. I'm calling insurance to have someone tow it to the dealership. They *should* come and pick it, but I'm out of warranty,

[m1kemex]

22 minutes ago, Wino said:

Just to clarify, when you say "take it to the dealer" do you mean drive it?

I don't think you should do that, for your own safety and that of other road users. Phone and get them to collect the vehicle.

BTW: nice recommendation on listing your engine code. My Toledo runs a CJZD, manufactured in Mladá Boleslav.

 

How do I check the date of manufacture?

[Breezy_Pete]

Date of manufacture of the car or the engine? 

A dealer should be able to tell you the former. For the latter, there may be a date on the upper cambelt cover data sticker?

[Eric_DK]

My Skoda Fabia registered at the end of August 2016 (model year 2017) was delivered to the dealer straight off the assembly line.

Earlier in this thread, I have described my experiences when the fuel leaked and the subsequent experience at the authorized dealer.

I received a copy of information about the manufacturer's work to resolve the problem.

The problem affects 1.2 TSI and 1.4 TSI engines (CZE*, CZD*, CHP*, CJZ*, CYV*)

New equipment was implemented in the producion process to automatically tighten the rail bolts in week 25 of 2018.

Sold vehicles with the problem need to have the rail, injection gaskets and all rail mounting bolts replaced.

The rail mounting bolts should be tightened to a torque of 10 Nm.

 

 

 

[rum4mo]

Thanks, that is useful information and explains why this can be an issue for owners of earlier with cars having earlier engines.

 

Now if I could work out what exactly is the setup with regards to the air inlet cold plate, I could get on with splitting the intercooler from the cold plate and maybe get enough room to replace these bolts one at a time.

 

So it sounds a lot like VW Group ended up discovering that there was a production problem that could end up with engines being fitted to new cars and these engines not having correctly torqued HP fuel rail fixings that could leave owners with high pressure petrol spraying out the front of the engine - and nothing was put in place to recover this potentially dangerous situation, just leave it until bolts failed and fit a kit of parts at the customer's expense, not best practise. 

 

Edit:- a roughly similar issue with the Audi 3.0TSFI engines resulted in a worldwide recall - eventually, UK as usual was extremely slow to hand out recall notices, maybe a year or so behind ROW, maybe some thing will happen here with this issue eventually.

Edited 21 October, 2020 by rum4mo

[m1kemex]

6 hours ago, Eric_DK said:

My Skoda Fabia registered at the end of August 2016 (model year 2017) was delivered to the dealer straight off the assembly line.

Earlier in this thread, I have described my experiences when the fuel leaked and the subsequent experience at the authorized dealer.

I received a copy of information about the manufacturer's work to resolve the problem.

The problem affects 1.2 TSI and 1.4 TSI engines (CZE*, CZD*, CHP*, CJZ*, CYV*)

New equipment was implemented in the producion process to automatically tighten the rail bolts in week 25 of 2018.

Sold vehicles with the problem need to have the rail, injection gaskets and all rail mounting bolts replaced.

The rail mounting bolts should be tightened to a torque of 10 Nm.

 

 

 

I just got the repair invoice. They are going to replace all gaskets and mounting bolts but they did not consider replacing the rail. Should I insist on that? Mine didn't do long hours loose; perhaps there was no damage.

 

They originally quoted around 200 GBP but they are willing to do it for about 60. SEAT supposedly is going to pay for the parts.

[Eeeekkk]

On 09/06/2020 at 23:41, EzyRyder said:

Just to let you all know, Skoda have replied and have offered a free service for my troubles (I think they are worth around £200). Would you take this or fight it further? Next step I need to pay £25 for the Small Claims Court.

Sorry I didn't see this when you posted it. I didn't have to initiate court proceedings, I just wrote the letter before action telling them I was planning to take them to court and they paid.

[rum4mo]

That is good, so they will have logged your failure - and paid for it.

 

I hope that Skoda understand that by doing that they can't just walk away from this type of failure, maybe forward your and their correspondence to MOT so that they know that this is going on in case someone is not so lucky in the future and gets toasted.

[m1kemex]

They fixed it and appears to be working fine now. Maybe it's me but it seems like they flashed the ECU or something because I noticed that the instant consumption meter, wich is the option I usually have selected in the dash computer, is now being updated very quickly. I also did notice that the mileage improved very sightly. 

 

They had to disassemble the head and the turbo intake to get to the injectors; they replaced all gaskets there and those of the injectors. Plus all the mounting bolts of the common rail. Like the rest of you, the problem was that one of those screws fatigued and broke at the head. They didn't tell me which one of the bolts it was, but I have no reason to think it failed differently than what we already now (the one near the first injector).

 

They charged me GBP 60, which I consider reasonable for a repair of this kind. Volkswagen of Mexico (they distribute SEAT over here) and the dealer paid for the rest. I service it in the same place I bought it and intend to remain doing so; perhaps they wised up and are trying to keep me happy.

 

Thank you all, you've been very helpful. This is certainly a widespread issue so I'm still calling the consumer authorities to report it. I'm satisfied with the solution given, but I don't want to hear from someone else to go through this. Fuel leaks are very dangerous and should be approached proactively.

[Hoppalong]

Hi strange that i have the same problem with my Octavia 1.4 tsfi estate 66 plate with 15 000 on the clock and just bern told the price to put it right GULP on a relatively  new low milage car 

[m1kemex]

19 hours ago, Hoppalong said:

Hi strange that i have the same problem with my Octavia 1.4 tsfi estate 66 plate with 15 000 on the clock and just bern told the price to put it right GULP on a relatively  new low milage car 

 

Tell them that you've investigated over Internet (print this post, for example) and found you're not alone, that it's a known problem (although maybe not specific to VAG; high pressure pumps used in modern fuel delivery systems just hammer the injector rails) and that, given the age and mileage of your car, they should offer you a reasonable solution. I had to pay a little, but I consider it reasonable.

 

Or go directly to the consumer authorities. This is not like a failing power window; a fuel leak is a fire hazard to you and to others in the street, so they *must* fix it.

[Peskyparttimers]

This happened to our car (66 plate Fabia 1.2) last night, sprayed high pressure fuel all over the engine but luckily did not ignite. Got it recovered back home and upon investigation this is what we found.

 

Top right hand bolt on fuel rail loose, bottom bolt head sheared off completely and discovered resting on the lower crankcase flange so can only just have happened. 

Number one injector ejected from head by 3 or 4mm.

Number two injector also loose and partially out.

Fuel rail brackets not paralell to one another and holes way to big for M6 bolts they look more like 8mm. Bolts actually only biting on about 40% of the available cap head of the bolt. Very poorly manufactured item and obviously when bolted to a flat object (cylinder head) one or more bolts are under excess strain due to the bolt flanged not being parallel.

No flat or spring washers on the rail bolts (or thread locking compound). The engineer in me says there should either be flat and spring washers or mushroom headed bolts used with anti vibration serrations under the heads......

Bolts are marked 8.8 but look like chinese rubbish. If they are stainless its really low grade as I retrieved the snapped off bolt head with a magnet!

Something not right with the white seal on number one injector, it appears to have been crushed or not fitted correctly. Green flexible seal split almost right through.

 

Skoda being less than helpful as car has not been main dealer serviced every year (only done 20k), nearest dealership is 20 odd miles away and car is obviously not drivable. Can't tow it as no PAS or brakes and sprays petrol everywhere with the ignition on. Wife is a key worker and needs it asap to get to work.

 

What are my chances of getting anywhere with Skoda UK?

 

 

[Hoppalong]

Hi guys ye finally got car back and was given 25 percent godwill discount but still had to cough up just under 600 quid they replaced fuel rail aswell as gaskets and bolts ,think will have another go at Skoda as  mentioned its a safety issue but shouldnt happen on a 5year old 15000 mile car ,my other fabia had done 240 000 petrol when changed for octavia and i have had to change all 4 tyres as they were split in between the tread Mot advisory