Cheap remap anyone?

[dave a]

Ever wondered why some companies charge 100 quid and other are 300+?

Noticed the large amount of wannabe 'ecu mappers' appearing on the market lately and offering remaps on ebay for next to nothing?

Well its simple, the old fashioned way of mapping an ecu was to get the car on a dyno (rolling road) carry out extensive testing, use specialist software and equipment to be able to read the files from the ECU and view the information held within the maps, then modify the information held within the maps and re-test, re-map, re-test etc.... until they were 100% happy.

These days there is a massive amount of cheap, cloned and fake hardware and software out there. It can be bought from as little as 75 pounds! but that isnt the real problem, cheap hardware is one thing but without the knowledge of how to actually write a modified ECU map this cheap equipment is useless.

Recently there has been a HUGE amount of companies right accross europe popping up that sell modified ECU map files, mostly these are known in the trade as 'bedroom tunes' as the vast majority of them are files that have been simply modified purely by guesswork, no real testing or R&D just a few tweeks here and there and hope for the best. I have found people in Lithuania, Romania, Turkey etc.. all trying to seel cheap files. Most of these files are corrupt, unsuitable or just plain angerous to use, but your average 'have a go' cheap remap dealer wont care!

Just look at some of these prices:

Skoda Fabia 1.9 TDI Bosch EDC15V - Fabia - Tunefood ECU File Service

yes, RRP is 350 pounds, File price is 65 pounds and trade price is even less!

Nobody knows where the file is from, who wrote it or even what the file is, just load it up and hope for the best. Takes less than 10 mins to download one of these files and upload to the ECU. Would you risk it?

Hope this helps people realise why some companies are so much more expensive when it comes to remapping an ecu. As a guide, if the outlet doesnt have their own dyno its likley they dont write their own maps and they are simply a file re-seller, not a proffesional mapping centre.

[Mr Grumpy]

Is this a sneaky way of advertising something, I ask myself ?

[Littlebull]

Hmmmm Nah think he's empahsising the fact that these boys are COWBOYS ! YEHAAA !

[Gez]

Is it not possible then for a person who has extensive experience/knowledge of ECU files and programming to know exactly what sort of information they are looking at and able to Modify a file correctly dependant on the information they are reading from that file without the need for Rolling road tests etc?

[Joff]

I would also add that a dyno does not a tuner make.

[VRS 203]

I got a cheap £200 re-map.

The guys just got the software and banged it on.

Never had a problem with it.

And produced near 40bhp increase.

[Td-eye]

As I understand it, "generic remaps" are remaps of the ecu with new settings for a particular type of vehicle which have been found to work well in other vehicles of the same type. These "generic remaps" are generally cheaper than the "custom remaps" which will either tweak a generic remap whilst on a rolling road for optimum performance or start the tuning process for optimum performance on a rolling road from scratch.

I may be wrong in all that but this was always my understanding on the difference between the two and the reason for the price differences i.e. the work involved in determining the settings to apply has already been done in generic remaps and it only requires for them to be flashed to the ECU.

Edited 15 November, 2008 by Td-eye

[Beretta]

Is it not possible then for a person who has extensive experience/knowledge of ECU files and programming to know exactly what sort of information they are looking at and able to Modify a file correctly dependant on the information they are reading from that file without the need for Rolling road tests etc?

If the tuner knows his business, then its easy for him to open any map that he has installed on the car and modify it to your requirements, Mike at Impossible was tuning this way for years without complaint whilst he was at his Rochester site.

He will tweak/customise any of his maps to your requirements without complaint.

Having now moved to Canterbury he has a full dyno, and this enables him to read the AFR of the car of the vehicle whilst on the rollers, this being one of the main things that is virtually impossible without rollers.

Perhaps being in a different position, we do know who wrote the maps and where thay come from, and I certainly had no complaints about the map that was on my old Octy vRS which always hit good figures, and on the road surprised many a larger, dearer, bigger bhp car.

[dave a]

Is this a sneaky way of advertising something, I ask myself ?

Not at all, its just a question that I get asked all the time, possibly once or twice a day sometimes. Thought it would be interesting for people to see what goes on behind the scenes of the cheap remap scene.

Is it not possible then for a person who has extensive experience/knowledge of ECU files and programming to know exactly what sort of information they are looking at and able to Modify a file correctly dependant on the information they are reading from that file without the need for Rolling road tests etc?

yes, an experienced ecu mapper can open a file and will know what they are looking at and sometimes have a good guess at what to modify and how to modify it and they would get decent results, however, a person with this amount of knowledge and equipment would not need to buy a cheap file that has been modified by a 'bedroom tuner' in a distant Eastern European contry, he would write the file himself. Modifying files without a dyno is possible and can get good results, but without something to tell you (a dyno for example) how the changes to the map file are affecting the power output and other factors, its just a good guess. As always, some guesses are far better than others!

Some map file wrtiers will write very good maps without even seeing the car, these files are generally sold to tuners that can extensively test them before allowing the customer to drive away. However, the end user that writes the file to the car generally pays a premium price for them and charges a premium price to the customer. Nothing wrong with this method of mapping.

The other side to that is the poeple buying files for 15-30 quid and just banging them into the ecu, no testing or knowledge, just whack it on and hope for the best! but the customer does save 150 quid, should help a bit towards the cost of the new turbo;)

[roo]

Personally, I'd only ever use a reputible tuning company that has had recommendations from people I know, or that has a long history in the game. I'd quite happily pay £400 for the service no matter what it costs them. The point of all that is just like every other business, they need to make a profit, yes it may be up to a 300% mark up, but with all the other costs involved with running a garage, along with the fact that they may not always be busy and earning money, more than likely means they will only see about £25-50, depending on location/price/etc.

Another point is, while that company you posted a link to charges x amount, the companies/people that that the reputible companies use, may well charge money in the thousands to cover their costs in cracking the map and developing the software

[p-torque.co.uk]

I think this is a good post actually.

I find it amazing, (and a little silly if I'm honest) that some do not question why some guy on Ebay can you tune your car for £150.00 its a joke.

Think about the value of your engine and components. There are too many guys offering maps with poor equipment, (which in itself can damage an ECU)

Also, many will ''shop around'' for cheap files, so they make more profit...very dangerous indeed.

Stick to reputable tuners is the lesson here I think

[Davewhitfield]

Just been to Dave's this weekend. Saw an advertiesment on BRISKODA and rang him up. Now I'm an amature when it comes to Chiping or Remaping a car however I've read loads about it and decided to take the Plunge.

I had contacted sevreal companies which were going to tip up at my house with a laptop programme the ECU and take the car for a test drive. For the pleasure it would have been £300 plus thankyou very much.

However after a call to Dave I was certain this was the right approach. Dave mentioned that he had invested quite substantially in a rolling road he even has his own VRS which he uses to test his Remaps. He booked me in that day due to a BMW not being able to keep his appointment.

I tipped up Last Saturday at 3.30pm. I'm certainly in the right place. An M5 BMW was on the rolling road and a group of lads were eagerly waiting for the next run. My youngest lad (11) and I were amazed the BMW sounded like a F1 racing car reving in pole position. I'm not sue of the actual outcome but I'm sure it was over 500BHP. I was taken out in Daves VRS and he asked me loads of questions on what I had in mind. I gave his car a little spin and was very impressed. I decided to have the live remap done for Fuel economy and the extra BHP and Torque to get out of those sticky situations you find when an A3 wont let you out of the second Lane into the fast lane when an Artic decides it's time to pull out (we have all been there).

First impression after the Live rolling road remap. Fuel economy so far is amazing I'm not driving like miss Daisy but I'm returning 65-70 MPG at 50MPH at 70 -80 I'm getting 63.9MPG

Now I know it's early days but watch this space for other car owners that have had their Remap Done at Dave's PDTuning Garage in Bolden. This String will be massive. Cheers Dave

[dave a]

Thanks for the update Dave, glad you are happy with it

[snownrock]

I think its good to look at it a different way, would you let some cowboy with no reputation fit you a kitchen for 25% of the price that someone who has a great reputation of quality and longevity would? A car is to most people the second most expensive thing they own so personally i would want to make sure i was paying money for quality.

[kinnell355]

Now I know it's early days but watch this space for other car owners that have had their Remap Done at Dave's PDTuning Garage in Bolden. This String will be massive. Cheers Dave

Sounds like you had a good experience however some others at corsasport seem to be a bit lighter on the pocket thanks to the same garage, different name though I think, but allard have just proved how easy that is

Corsa Sport - for Vauxhall, Opel and Holden Corsa and Barina

15 pages worth reading.

Having recently moved down that way I'd rather make the trip to Awesome with a bit of a long standing reputation but still reassuringly expensive.

K

/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ [hip-uh-krit]

[Shifty]

Having recently moved down that way I'd rather make the trip to Awesome with a bit of a long standing reputation but still reassuringly expensive.

K

/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ [hip-uh-krit]

Reassuringly expensive? I have an ECU in a box somewhere with a £600 map on. It's totally useless despite being custom mapped to my car. Expensive is not always best. I should chase up a refund for that map actually. That reminded me.

[TeflonTom]

what stops you from offloading a generic map from a car that's had a map done by a reputable tuner, then writing it on to somebody elses car??

[oilburninnut]

Sounds like you had a good experience however some others at corsasport seem to be a bit lighter on the pocket thanks to the same garage, different name though I think, but allard have just proved how easy that is

Corsa Sport - for Vauxhall, Opel and Holden Corsa and Barina

15 pages worth reading.

Having recently moved down that way I'd rather make the trip to Awesome with a bit of a long standing reputation but still reassuringly expensive.

K

/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ [hip-uh-krit]

after reading this i think you are correct,what a lesson about using a reputable company,these guys were lucky they were on a group buy if it had been a sigle order i bet they would have been shafted,some of the affiliated threads show a pattern emerging here,briskodians be warned i think.

[oilburninnut]

Myself and Ali have been approached by several companies to become an outlet if you like for a remapping service. After alot of consideration we have chosen one, its not the cheapest but we are very happy with the quality of the workmanship in the maps and the service we can offer.

thats good news ross,a reputable man whos been assisting briskodians for years:thumbup:

[fluffmeister]

Sounds like you had a good experience however some others at corsasport seem to be a bit lighter on the pocket thanks to the same garage, different name though I think, but allard have just proved how easy that is

Corsa Sport - for Vauxhall, Opel and Holden Corsa and Barina

15 pages worth reading.

Having recently moved down that way I'd rather make the trip to Awesome with a bit of a long standing reputation but still reassuringly expensive.

K

Jeez, I just read that thread. I hate "phoenix" company's having lost money through my own business to people shutting the door one day and opening it again the next.

I'm glad I spend my money with the likes of JKM, Awesome and Performance Torque. Best there's no GB's placed with this bloke then

[VRStu]

This made me laugh -

Corsa Sport - for Vauxhall, Opel and Holden Corsa and Barina

11th post down -

Originally posted by pdtuning

Hi all,

I have limited knowledge of the happenings with Vsport and any outstanding orders.

PDtuning took over the Vsport premises as from the 20th of October 2008. Vsport as a company is still trading but not from these premises. We would like to inform anyone reading this thread that as a company we are in no way connected financially or legally with Vsport and any grievances with that company should be taken up with them.

If people would like to contact them the best method is to email on: [email protected]

Does that email address look familier to you Dave?

[gadgetman]

what stops you from offloading a generic map from a car that's had a map done by a reputable tuner, then writing it on to somebody elses car??

Every car and engine will be have differently even if built exactly the same.

Some cars love Shell fuel, others run crap on it and prefer, say, BP (or whatever, you get the idea). As such each ECU will have adapted specifically for that engine to some extent to get the best from it.

Now a standard off the shelf file may be from a 100% perfect engine. If yours is say 95% perfect, or running on a fuel it doesnt like, or differs from that used for the mapped car, there will be issues from the start. poor running, excess fuel usage etc etc.

To me, the only proper way is doing a map on your car, on a rolling road with a tech that knows their stuff.

[Tinbin]

Every car and engine will be have differently even if built exactly the same.

Some cars love Shell fuel, others run crap on it and prefer, say, BP (or whatever, you get the idea). As such each ECU will have adapted specifically for that engine to some extent to get the best from it.

Now a standard off the shelf file may be from a 100% perfect engine. If yours is say 95% perfect, or running on a fuel it doesnt like, or differs from that used for the mapped car, there will be issues from the start. poor running, excess fuel usage etc etc.

To me, the only proper way is doing a map on your car, on a rolling road with a tech that knows their stuff.

Can a qualified tuner clarify this? I'm pretty sure that ECU adaptation is continuous, and in no way permanently changes a map. So your argument about fuel differences is void. What would happen if the retuned guy decides to change brands?!?

Revo have loaded an identical map onto lots of cars, my previous vRS for example, and after a few miles of 'bedding in' it performs darn well on all of them. I do agree that it does perform to greater or lesser degrees depending on the individual car, like you said. That may be where a custom map could make small gains i.e. in harnessing the subtle edge one engine may have over another? Other than this, custom mapping is only primarily required for 'other hardware' or personal mapping requirements.

Cheers,

Andy.

[TeflonTom]

an adaptive map (learned by the ecu) only contains plus and minus numbers on boost and fuel trim (and ignition timing on petrol engines) which are applied to the main map parameters, but there are limits to what an adaptive map can do, iirc it can only 'trim' the setting by about 5% otherwise the ecu just thinks 'that must be wrong surely' and just reverts to the mapped setting in the main map...

[Neo_VR]

an adaptive map (learned by the ecu) only contains plus and minus numbers on boost and fuel trim (and ignition timing on petrol engines) which are applied to the main map parameters, but there are limits to what an adaptive map can do, iirc it can only 'trim' the setting by about 5% otherwise the ecu just thinks 'that must be wrong surely' and just reverts to the mapped setting in the main map...

Seconded.. My mazda+dashhawk shows this well...

There are two trim displays... STFT (short term) and LTFT(long term)

On a freshly-reset ecu, both of these values are zero... Short term fuel trim is calculated whilst driving on moderate throttle (ie when the engine is in closed loop... monitoring all sensors and making adjustments to the fuelling/timing etc to get the right AFR) after a while the ECU determines that for most the time its say adding/subtracting x% of fuelling/timing over the rev-range so it will commit that to the long-term trim.. so when the engine is NOT in closed loop mode (full throttle/high load) it will apply the long-term trim.. even though its not actively monitoring the AFR at that point. hence the reccomendation to drive gently for the first few miles after adding new mods, so the ecu can adjust the trims better - using full throttle before its adapted correctly will just slow the whole process down, and in a petrol engine will probably pull timing too.

I think my ecu can adjust up to 10% - its handy for me to monitor as i can see the affects that different fuels etc have on the engine..