1.2TSI cam chain problem

[David1980]

Here is the Dekra report, I’m wondering if it’s worth taking to small claims or not?

914619D9-8401-4C19-8DCF-2E21A707EEE8.pdf

[Irvworth]

 

On 17/06/2019 at 08:19, David1980 said:

Here is the Dekra report, I’m wondering if it’s worth taking to small claims or not?

914619D9-8401-4C19-8DCF-2E21A707EEE8.pdf 6.81 MB · 15 downloads

 

Hi David1980 (and everyone else)

 

Sorry to hear the long tail of woe - what did you decide to do in the end? 

 

I'm interested because exactly the same happened to me (chain slipped due to faulty tensioner, causing valve damage).  Car is now sitting in the main dealer's yard; they have refused to do anything other than replace the engine at cost price plus labour for £2,500, for a non-genuine engine.  They say Skoda has a 6 year limit on age of the car past which they will not allow dealers to claim for the repair.  The car is a 2011 SE model with about 74,000 miles so, worth about £2.5k, therefore repair doesn't make sense anyway. 

 

On the phone, the Skoda UK rep just refused to acknowledge there is/was a problem with these engines.  I am going to email them but am expecting the same response.

 

So I am now wondering two things:

1. Is it worth going to small claims court and if so, presumably I'd have to claim against the dealer rather than Skoda UK?
2. What to do with the car - are there any options other than scrap?

Thanks for any advice

Alec

 

[Ootohere]

@Irvworth

Welcome.

?

What is a non-genuine engine,

is it a refurbished or rebuilt because originally that would be a 1.2 TSI from VW.

A dealership no not fit Non Original parts and then give the 2 year parts and labour warranty that they do give.

 

Skoda / VW or someone on a phone can say anything.

You need in Writing from an employee of Skoda UK with a name and job title like a Resolution Manager / Communication Manager or something.  'Tony B-Liar' maybe.

They will say the same though possible in a reply to an e-mail.

Not always the truth though, they would not swear it on their life, or in a court of law.

Edited 24 November, 2019 by Roottootemoot

[Irvworth]

They did offer a genuine engine of course but that would be £3,700. Not sure what the non genuine would be but doesn't really matter as it would still cost more than the car's worth. 

[DIZZY3]

Hi, just wondering if you had any indication of chain problem i.e. rattle on start up or did it just jump 

[Irvworth]

No warning. Had been driving for about 30 mins then warning lights came on and car went into limp mode.

The TPIs others have posted indicate the timing chain cover etc is a response to customer complaints of hearing a rattle at startup. Last time car was in for a service some did mention that the chain would need changing if it started to rattle, so we were aware but didn't notice anything unusual. 

[Wonky]

Anyone know if it is possible to replace the chain tensioner on this engine without using the timing kit to set up the engine? The Haynes manual does not cover the tensioner replacement as a stand alone item, just as part of the chain replacement.
 
If it is possible it would seem to be a worthwhile procedure if you were to hear any rattling on start up.

[amstrange1]

On 29/11/2019 at 13:40, Wonky said:

Anyone know if it is possible to replace the chain tensioner on this engine without using the timing kit to set up the engine? The Haynes manual does not cover the tensioner replacement as a stand alone item, just as part of the chain replacement.
 
If it is possible it would seem to be a worthwhile procedure if you were to hear any rattling on start up.

I think it'd be possible, but you'd have to be careful to avoid moving cam or crank whilst the tensioner is out. If you're not sure, the timing kit is under £15 delivered online, and  simple to use.

 

In case the info helps others:

I thought we'd be without worry of these dreaded timing chain issues, given that our 1.2TSI 105PS Fabia is a 2014 model - and therefore had the new type chain; guides and sprockets from the factory. However, over the last 6 months the dreaded cold-start rattle developed. The car's got full Skoda service history, but is out of warranty. 53k miles on the clock.

 

I've just bought and fitted a new chain and tensioner kit (and water pump - but that's another 1.2TSI familiar story!). The chain was the same type and style as the original, as were the sprockets - the tensioner was now suffix 'F' on the part number compared to 'D' on the original. Other key part numbers were the same, although the new guides were clearly from a different batch/source.

 

The spring in the new tensioner was significantly stiffer than the part I removed, and in its uncompressed state was approx 1mm longer than the original. Whether this is down to wear and tear, part revisions, or both - I can't comment. The conclusion I'd draw from this though, is that for those with the rattle on later cars, that a tensioner-only replacement is a cheap initial first step worth a punt.

[Irvworth]

On 24/11/2019 at 16:18, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

@Irvworth

Welcome.

?

What is a non-genuine engine,

is it a refurbished or rebuilt because originally that would be a 1.2 TSI from VW.

A dealership no not fit Non Original parts and then give the 2 year parts and labour warranty that they do give.

 

Skoda / VW or someone on a phone can say anything.

You need in Writing from an employee of Skoda UK with a name and job title like a Resolution Manager / Communication Manager or something.  'Tony B-Liar' maybe.

They will say the same though possible in a reply to an e-mail.

Not always the truth though, they would not swear it on their life, or in a court of law.

 

A little update in case you are interested...

 

Yes, the "non-genuine" engine would be a refurb.  They offered to fit it at cost for £2,500 with a 12 month warranty on the engine only.  However, another local specialist garage reckons they can rebuild with new chain and replacement valves for just under £2k, so we're going to do that. 

 

We did approach Skoda UK who I have to say were extremely unhelpful, did not acknowledge the issue and completely washed their hands of any responsibility.  They were also completely unreliable, claiming to have tried calling us and the dealership when they clearly had not.

 

There is potentially a case against the dealership under the Consumer rights Act 2015 but I don't have the energy to follow it up and suspect it wouldn't go anywhere, so we'll just have to suck it up.  After this episode I am really struggling to see the value of having your car serviced by a main dealer, whom I would have expected to have advised us better to avoid this problem.  Won't be going back to them in future.

 

[Ootohere]

I think i would be paying the extra £500 and some.

But if you are sure of the specialist and they are guaranteeing their work then maybe that is the way to go.

[Irvworth]

You mean a better investment for the new engine?  Specialist will guarantee their work for 12 months also, and they seem confident, having dealt with this problem numerous times before.  I'm just wondering if there is anything else we ought to get done while they are in there - its done 77k miles?

[Wonky]

On 04/01/2020 at 17:02, amstrange1 said:

I think it'd be possible, but you'd have to be careful to avoid moving cam or crank whilst the tensioner is out. If you're not sure, the timing kit is under £15 delivered online, and  simple to use.

 

In case the info helps others:

I thought we'd be without worry of these dreaded timing chain issues, given that our 1.2TSI 105PS Fabia is a 2014 model - and therefore had the new type chain; guides and sprockets from the factory. However, over the last 6 months the dreaded cold-start rattle developed. The car's got full Skoda service history, but is out of warranty. 53k miles on the clock.

 

I've just bought and fitted a new chain and tensioner kit (and water pump - but that's another 1.2TSI familiar story!). The chain was the same type and style as the original, as were the sprockets - the tensioner was now suffix 'F' on the part number compared to 'D' on the original. Other key part numbers were the same, although the new guides were clearly from a different batch/source.

 

The spring in the new tensioner was significantly stiffer than the part I removed, and in its uncompressed state was approx 1mm longer than the original. Whether this is down to wear and tear, part revisions, or both - I can't comment. The conclusion I'd draw from this though, is that for those with the rattle on later cars, that a tensioner-only replacement is a cheap initial first step worth a punt.

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting and informative.  Had your chain stretched significantly? I have seen the timing kit too approximately £14 on EBay.

[amstrange1]

On 10/01/2020 at 17:42, Wonky said:

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting and informative.  Had your chain stretched significantly? I have seen the timing kit too approximately £14 on EBay.

There wasn't any noticeable stretch, just slight wear to chain and sprockets. I think our issue was worn tensioner though, rather than chain. The only new part number (apart from fixing bolts) was the tensioner and the old part was obviously slacker than the new one.

 

I used the Nielson timing kit - it looked a bit better than some of the unbranded Chinese specials, and was fit for purpose. Not amazing quality, but good enough if you don't mind cleaning it up a bit.

 

Other observations - you can do the chain without dropping the sump, but I'd take the sump off. Engine mount needs to come out too, but you can support the engine easily enough whilst you do this. The generic VW water pump pulley tool needs 1mm boring out of the bolt holes to get it to fit on the 1.2TSI. I also got the proper cam and crank pulley wrenches too - about £50 delivered for the pair proved to be a sound investment.

 

The generic version of the VAG sealant for the lower timing chain cover is Elring Dirko. Loctite 5970 for the upper cover. I use Dirko on both as the tube was open and it's a higher temp spec IIRC than the Loctite stuff.

 

The car rewarded me with the other 1.2TSI common fault of no.3 HT lead failure, which worked out okay as it turned out that (despite full Skoda service history to date) it'd never had the plugs changed (or the airfilter) - so I did them at the same time. Now it's running sweetly and quietly again.

 

 

[chimaera]

On 12/01/2020 at 14:25, amstrange1 said:

Other observations - you can do the chain without dropping the sump, but I'd take the sump off. Engine mount needs to come out too, but you can support the engine easily enough whilst you do this. The generic VW water pump pulley tool needs 1mm boring out of the bolt holes to get it to fit on the 1.2TSI. I also got the proper cam and crank pulley wrenches too - about £50 delivered for the pair proved to be a sound investment

 

Do you happen to have links to the cam/crank pulley wrenches? As someone considering buying one of these cars, this job would be high up the list of things to do.

[chimaera]

As mentioned, I'm looking at possibly buying a Fabia 1.2 TSI so I've been reading up on this issue. This thread has been quite useful, and lead me to do some additional research which may be of benefit to anyone else dealing with it.

 

The main thing I was curious about was what parts were fitted during production so I went digging in the parts catalogue. The obvious thing here is that there is (only one) VIN split on the timing chain and associated parts: I can't get VIN or engine number data, but the date split was on 2011-10-23. The next thing was to look for what might have changed at that point.

 

There was no change to the timing case which is curious in the context of earlier posters here noting that a different one was offered as an initial fix.

 

Next was a comparison of the individual parts across the split. Another curious thing arose here: the crankshaft sprocket is not listed as a replaceable spare part in the catalogue. So what was listed:

 

 

So from this, pretty much everything else was replaced on engines/cars built after that date. The remaining question was what parts are included in the replacement kit 03F 198 158 B (https://www.vag247.com/en_US/p/Timing-chain-kit-1.2-TSI-CBZA-CBZB-CBZC/1704).

 

 

Looking across this list, almost everything in the kit was fitted in production from the end of October '11. The only revised part appears to be the tensioner, though the absence of the crank sprocket in the parts catalogue means I can't compare that one.

 

So what to make of it all?

 

If your car was built prior to the VIN split, get your hands on the repair kit (03F 198 158 B ) and have it fitted if this hasn't already been done.

 

If your car was built after the VIN split, it's a harder call. Low mileage cars are probably fine with just replacing the tensioner, or higher mileage cars that have spent a lot of time on the motorway (fewer starts per mile driven means less running with an unpressurised tensioner). If it's already rattling quite a bit, the chain and sprockets are getting damaged over and above normal wear and tear and replacement of everything is a good idea.

 

The parts kit is not that expensive, though the fitting seems to be length enough that labour charges are significant. Looking around, it seems the lockdown tools are not hugely expensive, so for anyone handy with a spanner, it's probably going to run to less than €200 to DIY it.

 

Personally, getting this info together leaves me fairly confident about buying a TSI since I can sort out this problem pretty cheaply. I figure on replacing the whole lot regardless of what I get and factor that into the budget.

 

Edited 24 January, 2020 by chimaera

[J1973]

On 24/01/2020 at 22:36, chimaera said:

 

 

 

Many thanks for all the information above I am getting really confused by this.

 

I have got a quote from a local garage which used to be skoda approved isn't anymore claimed the skoda franchise cost to much. Anyway the part they said would be needed for a timing change change are listed here:

03F109158G – TIMING CHAIN

03F109507F – TENSIONER CHAIN

03F109469E – TRACK

03F109509F – GUIDE RAIL

03F109571F – SPROCKET

03F115225 – DRIVE CHAIN Oil pump

03F115121B – SPROCKET Oil pump

D176501A1 – SILICONE ADHESIVE SEALANT

D176600M1 – SILICONE SEALANT

N90256202 – SCREW HEX HD

N90987302 - 12 POINT SOCKET SHOULDER SCREW

N10734501 – 12 POINT BOLT (COMBI)

N10734401 – 12 POINT BOLT (COMBI)

N90365901 – OVAL HEXAGON SOCKET HEAD BOLT

WHT004068 – SUPPORT BOLT

03C115561H- OIL FILTER

 

The ones highlighted in bold are contained in the kit 03F 198 158B I think. However the parts list they provided doesn't include 03F 105 209G crank sprocket I asked why not and they claimed that that part wasn't applicable to my car and that it was a none replaceable part.

 

I would be grateful for any thoughts on this. 

 

my engine details are

Engine number: CBZB 95019
Date on engine stamp: 18.7.12

Mlada Boleslav production.

 

I believe that I have one of the newer TSI engines but cannot get my engine number to line up the ones which are quoted iengine number after CBZ*462774 my engine number appears to be missing a digit? 

 

I was also wondering if the engine is fitted with the newer chain setup and a chain rattle is heard is the risk of chain breaking the same or less than on earlier engines? 

 

Sorry for all the questions. 

 

 

[sepulchrave]

Your engine is clearly post-VIN split due to the date of manufacture.

 

The garage has therefore made an error and assumed yours is an earlier engine with a non-serviceable crank sprocket.

 

You must insist that the crank sprocket included in the kit is fitted, make sure the parts list is amended to reflect this.

 

The crank sprocket wears the worst due to being half the diameter of the cam sprockets, a new chain will not sit properly on an old, worn sprocket.

[xman]

 

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/03f198229a-timing-set-1-2tsi-63kw-77kw-skoda-25113.html

 

Note it says for pre 2011 engines ALL components must be changed.

 

As yours is 2012- they are possibly going to reuse the existing sprocket which is a bad idea as @sepulchrave says, this is the sprocket that the chain will jump if allowed to due to wear and lack of tension

 

Saving time and need for appropriate puller tool, cutting corners? Only other reason if the sprocket is not removable on this engine, but I think that is unlikely given its in all the parts lists -> 2014

 

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/03f105209g-chain-sprocket-skoda-38508.html

 

Btw I think its not necessary to change the oil pump sprocket or chain. Its unlikely they are worn. They didn't change these when they fitted the new timing kit to our 2011 Octavia.

Edited 9 April, 2021 by xman

[J1973]

@X manand @sepulchravemany thanks, I am not sure if I am going to get that garage to do the work as the parts they priced are very higher and it looks like they are trying to cut corners not replacing the bottom sprocket- it is hard to find a good garage that know what they are doing. 

[xman]

Heres a video showing the camchain change according to workshop procedure, you can see the crankshaft sprocket is changed using a special tool.

 

 

[J1973]

On the You tube video comments you can see that there is some discussion about that tool and if that double crankshaft sprocket is a spare part or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge4QED-K9cY

 

This Russian forum provides details of the process: https://vagdrive.com/threads/zamena-cepi-grm-na-dvigatele-1-2-tsi-cbza-cbzb-cbzc-semejstvo-ea111.417/ and details the tools required. 

 

Can understand why the labor costs for this are so high- I am guessing it might be best to get an official Skoda garage to do the job- but it is a hard call given that the cost this is probably about 1/4 of the value of the car. 

 

If there are any recommendations in the East of England that would be great we are in Ely north of Cambridge. 

 

Thanks again

[sepulchrave]

I recommend you get a quote from an independent VW specialist, it's a VW engine, they're VW trained technicians.

[J1973]

Hi, in the end I got the job done at https://adsutton.co.uk/ in March Cambridgeshire. This was only done a couple of days ago, but the communication from the garage was great and they were very clear on what parts were being replaced. 

They charged 5 hours labour in the end to replace the chain. 

I asked them to keep the old chain etc photos below. As my car was main in July 2012 it had the new 'improved' chain. Hopefully I won't have to get this replaced again. 

 

[sepulchrave]

Good stuff, sounds like your new garage is a keeper, good recommendation.

[cjiom]

I've been looking and looking and looking for TPI 2037419 / 11 but seems this has been replaced by a 2037419/12 from 06/09/2017

 

There is a copy online (in russian) at the online ELSA site, Chrome or Google Translate will get you an English (ish) copy.

https://superetka.com/elsa/hst/src/5d/1139805/master.html

I was going to post begging if anyone had a copy so I hope this helps someone. I'm guessing we aren't allowed to just post the whole thing in here?