Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[Ryeman]

So how far out are the emissions?

In the U.S. Reportedly up to 40 X

[FLAPPERJACK7]

Just a little green lie

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[rum4mo]

Thanks ! whoops edit

 

[not an Audi driver yet...!]

 

If that is the audisport forum, I'd heard that the A3/S3 members behave like rabid dogs - so no surprise there then, when you get your S3 you might better join SRS forum to avoid them! (Though I might have these two forums mixed up?)

[Jevpls]

 

 

Reminds me my brothers Audi in wintertime

[StuartTunstall]

VED is currently based on CO2 not NOx, so it won't change.

A little off topic but just seen this (God help anyone buying after this comes in, don't get rid of your diesel yet!):

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That looks more fair to me.... from reading information about this, I read it as all cars depending on emissions will pay the first year rate, so in my instance £200 for the first year, then almost all will pay a flat rate of £140 unless the car is over £40000 then you pay £350 for the first 5 years... 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-duty/vehicle-excise-duty

 

Seems more like VED used to be... 

[Coops]

Just had the VW serviced 

 

 

[Totally Square]

I am still confused as to how I might be affected by this. My car performs okay and despite having the affected engine it passes its MOT and produces great fuel economy. The MOT computer doesn't read the software version of the ECU so if I don't update that then nothing will change. When I come to sell the a car nobody ever checks the software (unlike a couple of countries where this has to be done) and that won't change. The government (or VW) doesn't have the power to seize all the affected cars from their owners and as there are likely to be so many cars affected they would be unlikely to even attempt to do so,  and besides VW could never replace all the cars anyway   We are also not forced to service our cars at a Skoda dealer so again that is another way to avoid the issue.

 

Due to the scale of the problem the Government will take a pragmatic view and ask VW to handle it via a recall, but there are unlikely to be any consequences for those that don't comply as there never has been for people who ignore or are not aware of previous recalls and UK law is based upon precedent.    My gut feeling is that the upgrade won't be mandatory and it will be left to the owners to decide what to do.  I will probably do nothing.

1. VW group may be asked to remove offending software and retest, per vehicle model, per market eg UK.

2. Retest may show a different set of performance figures including CO2 for tax purposes, per vehicle model. 

3. VW group may be forced to compensate existing owners for the change in tax and performance figures and the government for missed annual tax.

...

[Dr Zoidberg]

In terms of possible concerns for UK owners without wandering off into hyperbolae and scaremongering....

 

It seems very likely that some cars sold here *do* have the ECU feature where it will operate in low emissions mode while being tested (wheels not turning, in neutral etc) but while being driven normally it's in full power mode with higher NOx emissions. VW have admitted this.

There is no evidence that this has had any effect on CO2 figures, so VED and company car bandings aren't likely to be a problem.

 

It's very likely that VW will have to remove the cheat feature from the ECU as part of a recall.

If they do, they will have to do one of three things.
If they just remove the cheat so the engine operates at full power all the time then NOx emissions will be higher though as was pointed out, in the UK they aren't tested for the MOT.

If they remove the cheat and adjust the ECU so that it's NOx emissions are within Euro 5 limits, then it's likely to have an adverse affect on the car's performance.

The other is physical modifications to the vehicles in question, possibly adding an AdBlue system but that may not be technically possible to retrofit on cars that aren't designed for it.

None of these seem particularly desirable outcomes for the owner.

[Llanigraham]

I know someone personally who had the tax band of their car changed after they bought it. Renault (the manufacturer) pay the difference for t

 

Sorry, but there is no Legislation to allow that.

[Llanigraham]

1. VW group may be asked to remove offending software and retest, per vehicle model, per market eg UK.

2. Retest may show a different set of performance figures including CO2 for tax purposes, per vehicle model. 

3. VW group may be forced to compensate existing owners for the change in tax and performance figures and the government for missed annual tax.

...

 

1. And what difference will that make?

2. So what?

3. Compensate for what? As has been pointed out they cannot change the VED bands retrospectively.

[Breezy_Pete]

In terms of possible concerns for UK owners without wandering off into hyperbolae and scaremongering....

 

It seems very likely that some cars sold here *do* have the ECU feature where it will operate in low emissions mode while being tested (wheels not turning, in neutral etc) but while being driven normally it's in full power mode with higher NOx emissions. VW have admitted this.

There is no evidence that this has had any effect on CO2 figures, so VED and company car bandings aren't likely to be a problem.

 

It's very likely that VW will have to remove the cheat feature from the ECU as part of a recall.

If they do, they will have to do one of three things.

If they just remove the cheat so the engine operates at full power all the time then NOx emissions will be higher, making it much harder or even impossible to pass an MOT.

If they remove the cheat and adjust the ECU so that it can pass emissions tests, then it's likely to have an adverse affect on the car's performance.

The other is physical modifications to the vehicles in question, possibly adding an AdBlue system but that may not be technically possible to retrofit on cars that aren't designed for it.

None of these seem particularly desirable outcomes for the owner.

Not currently testable.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Sorry, but there is no Legislation to allow that.

 

Agreed. It may be that the car was registered with a different CO2 figure to what the customer was promised, hence the compensation from the manufacturer.

[nick74]

If they just remove the cheat so the engine operates at full power all the time then NOx emissions will be higher, making it much harder or even impossible to pass an MOT.

There is no test for NOx in the UK diesel MOT, nor are there any plans to introduce one AFAIK. The 'emissions' test for diesels is purely a smoke opacity test, nothing more.

[Llanigraham]

In terms of possible concerns for UK owners without wandering off into hyperbolae and scaremongering....

 

It seems very likely that some cars sold here *do* have the ECU feature where it will operate in low emissions mode while being tested (wheels not turning, in neutral etc) but while being driven normally it's in full power mode with higher NOx emissions. VW have admitted this.

There is no evidence that this has had any effect on CO2 figures, so VED and company car bandings aren't likely to be a problem.

 

It's very likely that VW will have to remove the cheat feature from the ECU as part of a recall.

If they do, they will have to do one of three things.

If they just remove the cheat so the engine operates at full power all the time then NOx emissions will be higher, making it much harder or even impossible to pass an MOT. NO IT WON'T, AS NOx ISN'T TESTED AT MOT. DIESELS ONLY GET A SMOKE TEST!!

If they remove the cheat and adjust the ECU so that it can pass emissions tests, then it's likely to have an adverse affect on the car's performance. WHY WILL IT?

The other is physical modifications to the vehicles in question, possibly adding an AdBlue system but that may not be technically possible to retrofit on cars that aren't designed for it.

None of these seem particularly desirable outcomes for the owner.

[JoeFifty]

Meanwhile in Volkswagen HQ Emergency Meeting...

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[Dr Zoidberg]

Not currently testable.

 

Thanks. In which case UK drivers have less to worry about.

[silver1011]

Sorry, but there is no Legislation to allow that.

 

Skoda UK have made financial contributions to owners before when there have been mistakes made with a new models VED band...

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/341707-missold-car-incorrect-ved-band/

 

I'm guessing this was out of goodwill rather than them being forced to via legislation?

[JohnMcL7]

I agree with the comments about VW being retested and VED bands changing or similar is not going to happen, there's a separate issue in the EU that the real world results for many manufacturers differ so wildly from real world results they are working on producing new, more accurate tests and more achievable limits but that's not for a couple of years and even then the car manufacturers are looking for time.  That won't apply retroactively either so it would only apply to cars from a future date.

 

MOT testing is relatively basic particularly with emissions, they don't test to the Euro spec so with a removed DPF which should technically fail the particulate matter count a car can still pass (it's just a visual check) and they don't measure the CO2 and adjust your VED band either.  The diesel emissions test is a fairly simple smoke test and I don't think there's plans to change that any time soon either.

 

The only potential damage I can see to European VW owners at the moment is possibly a slight reduction in the value of cars as the VW brand is obviously taking a bit of a beating but even then I'm sceptical of that, people are predicting this as the end of VW but it wasn't that long ago Toyota has a massive safety recall which people had actually died as a result of and surprisingly it doesn't seem to be affecting the brand now.

 

John

[Huskoda]

Are you saying people are not dying due to nitrogen oxide related conditions?

 

To be sold, the cars have to pass specific tests to gain type approval. If there is evidence found suggesting these tests may be being faked, then that means the car should not have been sold. Indeed they could be found to have been sold illegally here, as they are in the states. MOTs have nothing to do with it. If the car does not meet (specifically if it has been modified - you will find these words in the RTA documentation and the installation of a defeat device would be classed as such - and the regulations do not state who needs to do so) the emissions standards it is designed for, it is illegal to use on UK roads. That is a real problem for owners and VW UK.

[Ryeman]

Advanced countries use extremely advanced systems to kill their own.

Petrol

Diesels

Coal

Glyphosate

Coffee

Burnt toast

......etc

[Ryeman]

BBC report

Prof Williams - Manchester University says he "is gobsmacked" the Germans claim they didn't know about this U.S./EPA issue which has been bubbling along for some time behind closed doors.

[mattbvRS]

I can't say that I'm surprised at this fiasco and I will be shocked if they weren't the only big car manufacture to be employing such measures! 

 

Slightly off topic, but look at the MPG book figures compared to what you actually achieve real world, they are diddled 9 times out of 10 to look better than they are using certain methods. 

 

****-storm approaching! I wouldn't like to be on the VAG board right about now, be a lot of bottom twitching going on! 

[lol-lol]

Some NO figures from the UK VCA.  Some hugely different figures....    http://carfueldata.dft.gov.uk/downloads/download.aspx?rg=aug2015

 

Manufacturer Model Description Transmission Engine Capacity                                    Fuel Type Emissions NOx [mg/km]

VOLKSWAGEN Polo 1.0 75PS Stop-Start M5 999                                                                  Petrol 12

VOLKSWAGEN Jetta 2.0 TDI 110PS 7speed DSG BlueMotion Technology D7 1968                                     Diesel 16

VOLKSWAGEN Scirocco 2.0 TSI 220PS Stop-Start M6 1984                                                        Petrol 25

VOLKSWAGEN Polo 1.4 TDI 75PS BlueMotion M5 1422                                                             Diesel 28

VOLKSWAGEN Golf GTI 2.0 TFSI 220PS 3 / 5 door DSG Stop-Start D6 1984                                        Petrol 29

VOLKSWAGEN Tiguan 1.4 TFSI 125PS Stop-Start M6 1395                                                         Petrol 39

VOLKSWAGEN Touareg 3.0 V6 TDI BMT SCR 262PS 4MOTION 8speed Tiptronic QA8 2967                               Diesel 39

VOLKSWAGEN Golf 1.4 FSI 150PS 3 door Stop-Start M6 1395                                                     Petrol 40

VOLKSWAGEN Touareg 3.0 V6 TDI BMT SCR 204PS 4MOTION 8speed Tiptronic QA8 2967                               Diesel 42

VOLKSWAGEN Golf SV 2.0 TDI 150PS DSG Stop-Start SE D6 1968                                                  Diesel 63

VOLKSWAGEN Golf 2.0 TDI 184PS 3 door DSG Stop-Start GTD D6 1968                                             Diesel 71

 

 

My Logan is 10 mg/km though I should confess the Jaaag is 80.  Have to only drive the Jaaag in cool and windy weather and not in big cities in the summer.

[Bigfozzieb]

On Sunday I put a deposit down on a Superb 2.0 tdci which has the affected engine. I haven't picked the car up yet and I'm in two minds what to do. If I refuse the car because of what has been revealed am I covered by the sale of goods act so I can get my deposit back? Or if I continue with the purchase, is the car now worth a lot less than I'll pay for it? Any advice/opinion would be very welcome. Thanks.

[Lady Elanore]

Anyone else bored witless with this story now?