Diesel engines fix recall

[countryboy]

I'll find out what the result will on Friday. Took my car in for service last week and got a call from the dealer on Monday asking if I'd like to take the car in and have it done. I was told it would take between 30 to 60 minutes.

Ian

[Nathanio]

On 24/01/2017 at 10:51, Offski said:

peterposh,

what is the sum of your losses so far that are to be recovered & that are going to be used in a Civil Action,

& what losses in to the future are expected by having a Euro 5 emissions VW Group TDI in the UK / Europe?

I wouldn't bother George. He's motivations are purely money. We've had this argument with him in the Superb section. 

[CWARD]

I wonder how many have thought any further than a quick buck. If they are successful in getting compensation then VAG are accepting there is problem with those vehicles in the UK market in that they were not worth as much as they had paid due to them not being as advertised. This will hit residuals too as the cars will still not be as advertised only that they have had the cheat device removed which will not have "effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance". The second hand car market will be quick to pick up on this as the owners have already been compensated for any loss and the dealers will offer less trade in values to reflect this which will taint all owners, compensated or not. You need only look at the US market where people have received compensation for their cars and no one wants to buy them so they are just sat on driveways and forecourts going nowhere.

[Ootohere]

Where has the UK Used Market been quick to react. It has not, and maybe cars without the Fix will be worth more than those with.

 

VW Group diesels were already depreciation disasters once going out of Original Manufacturers warranty in many cases & long before September 2015.

?

Where are all these even better bargain used Euro 5 TDI 1.2, 1.6 or 2.0 being offered for sale?

As it is if you want to trade in a Skoda or Seat there are other manufacturers that did not want them pre September 2015 

& still are not keen to pay more than they need to as they are going off to auction.

(The UK Auction Prices are more an indication of 'Value' real value than just 'someone says they will be worth less')

 

In the USA it was not a case of nobody wanting to buy affected cars, it was that they could not pass a Smog Test once the Defeat Device was revealed and the US Agency started actions and VW admitted their fraud, hence Buy Backs, 

and VW attempting to get 'Approved Fixes' for some VW / Audi & likely Porsche.

Edited 26 January, 2017 by Offski

[CWARD]

Offski, I had lost nearly £4000 in 18 months in value on my low mileage VRS using We Buy Any Car and dealers part ex calculator values from before I bought it to part-ex earlier this month. That is without VAG paying compensation to say the cars are not as advertised which will surely have negative effects of values.

It was the California emissions tests that highlighted the fraud, these are the strictest in the USA and even cars that have been fixed with urea injectors still fail the Californian tests but other states have much lower standards like Alabama yet the class action was for the whole country. The cars are near worthless even in states where they can now pass the emission tests as no one wants to buy something that is just passing now when future tests get tougher to prevent pollution.

If VAG admit fault and pay compensation I'm sure there will be knock effect. At the moment it stands that they are just removing the cheat device from the software and no harm is done for the EU market as no emissions tests were falsified. To admit that the EU emission test were fudged then they would no longer be Euro 5 complaint. This would mean they need to be retested, and it would be under scrutiny, then reclassified which could mean higher RFL's as they would be unlikely to get the same emissions with the same engine build and remap that doesn't decrease power outputs. Again this is all in the letter they sent out stating what won't be effected only, no mention of power and torque curves or emissions.   It is already wide spread on the negative effects the update has had on engine characteristics on various VAG cars. To gain compensation the class action must prove that VAG had falsified the emission data supplied to the buying public of the affected cars, which will prove the cars are not as efficient and no one wants to buy anything that is not as efficient regardless of what badge is stuck to it.  The governments could not turn a blind eye to a brand of car that were more polluting than stated, the environmentalists would have a field day.       

[Ootohere]

You must be paying too much when buying and selling too soon.

Dealers want profits from selling, and then taking in and selling again.

 

You can not blame the VW Group for how you buy and sell now can you?

[CWARD]

I always check the price on trade in values for the actual car I'm buying so I can negotiate on price to ensure I get a better deal. Hence why I said on part ex/ We Buy Any Car prices as knew what the car I wanted to buy was worth to the dealer and then what it was worth when I part ex so I could the maximum for it. Nothing to do with what I paid for it and then part ex'd at!   

[CWARD]

I'll give you an example if you're having difficulty understanding this simply concept.

 

Octavia 1.6 tdi Elegance sale price £11,799

 

trade in price on the same car £9,180 -£10,360 in other words the dealer has at least £1,439 in profits on the car 

 

[Redboy]

I wouldn't blame the emissions, I think there is an oversupply. Skodas used to be a rare...ish sight. Perhaps it's also due to dealers, who have significant overheads, needing to buy low, to sell at a reasonable price to those who won't/can't buy a brand new car, who want low mileage loaded cars....and still want top price on their own p/x. Just a thought. 

[Ootohere]

CWARD,

Maybe there is the basic error.

WBAC & Book Prices are not 'The Value'  just what you might get in a Trade at least, what you get is the value.

An independent that wants a car or a private buyer might want to buy and cut out the middle man.

(work out which cars cost £4,000 a year for 3 years, or keepers that after 5 years or more only cost you £1,000,

usually the cheaper purchase costs you less. Cheaper keepers cost less in running costs and depreciation.

VW Group cars are always rubbish in general but Finance & the VW Group manage to fix the trade, or they used to.)

 

Look at the Finance Deals with VW Group & they will often show their products worth 48% of the Purchase Price after 3 years.

Obviously that is crap, but even the Motoring Media seem to accept that as OK.

Edited 26 January, 2017 by Offski

[chimaera]

34 minutes ago, CWARD said:

Offski, I had lost nearly £4000 in 18 months in value on my low mileage VRS using We Buy Any Car and dealers part ex calculator values from before I bought it to part-ex earlier this month. That is without VAG paying compensation to say the cars are not as advertised which will surely have negative effects of values.

It was the California emissions tests that highlighted the fraud, these are the strictest in the USA and even cars that have been fixed with urea injectors still fail the Californian tests but other states have much lower standards like Alabama yet the class action was for the whole country. The cars are near worthless even in states where they can now pass the emission tests as no one wants to buy something that is just passing now when future tests get tougher to prevent pollution.

If VAG admit fault and pay compensation I'm sure there will be knock effect. At the moment it stands that they are just removing the cheat device from the software and no harm is done for the EU market as no emissions tests were falsified. To admit that the EU emission test were fudged then they would no longer be Euro 5 complaint. This would mean they need to be retested, and it would be under scrutiny, then reclassified which could mean higher RFL's as they would be unlikely to get the same emissions with the same engine build and remap that doesn't decrease power outputs. Again this is all in the letter they sent out stating what won't be effected only, no mention of power and torque curves or emissions.   It is already wide spread on the negative effects the update has had on engine characteristics on various VAG cars. To gain compensation the class action must prove that VAG had falsified the emission data supplied to the buying public of the affected cars, which will prove the cars are not as efficient and no one wants to buy anything that is not as efficient regardless of what badge is stuck to it.  The governments could not turn a blind eye to a brand of car that were more polluting than stated, the environmentalists would have a field day.       

 

It was not CARB that found the issue, it was an independent laboratory doing work for the ICCT, using test protocols that are outside the scope of any current regulatory protocols.

 

The EU fix is not just "removing the cheat device from the software and no harm is done for the EU market". If the cheat software was just removed, EU cars would be over the limit for NOx emissions by a significant margin. Or the cars would perform a lot worse.

 

VAG have already admitted that the cars do not comply with EU5 due to the cheat device, as they have admitted in the US that they did not comply with the regulations there.

 

There is no solid objective evidence out there for a loss of performance due to the update. What is there is a lot of anecdotes, supposition and pub talk. ADAC in Germany have independently tested the update on a 1.2 and a 2.0 TDI and concluded that it did exactly what VAG claimed it would: fix emissions without affecting performance.

[CWARD]

Offski, I know they are guideline prices but you will find these are within a few percent of the Glasses guide on valuations, which we used to use ourselves up until recently. This reflects the trade "value" of the car. A private buyer would pay more but often the true price is somewhere in the middle of trade and private values unless the vehicle is a collectors item. No basic error in my quoted loss as I was comparing trade with trade over the period. The same would be reflected between private and private. I agree if I had compared private or worse dealer to trade but I hadn't.  

[Ootohere]

I take it you have never worked in the car trade or been a dealer. (in vehicles.)

[CWARD]

Chimaera, I stand corrected on the origin of the emission scandal.

 

I am not aware of VW admitting to the engines not being Euro 5 compliant and the Nox levels for that standard are way higher than those found in the US with the cheat devices. This would make the class action a slam dunk for them. Can you provide proof of this for them to use.

 

As the for the ADAC tests have you actually read it as it shows full output readings not what the performance is at different rpm's, great for race tracks but not road users. I have driven back to back with my own car that hadn't been updated with my brother's that had and there is noticeable difference below 2500rpm where a diesel engine spends most of it's time on the roads. Plenty of others have the same experience on here too and others complaining about increased fuel consumption which you would expect if you were to get the same power outputs you would need to apply more RPM's to get it. 

The lack of independent testing is the problem as car magazines need the advertising revenues and the governments or the EU have not stepped up either. Those individuals who have provided their own reports show a drop in performance but people like you just dismiss them along with others who have noticed negative results.

[CWARD]

14 minutes ago, Offski said:

I take it you have never worked in the car trade or been a dealer. (in vehicles.)

 

Many years ago, yes and hated it.

 

If you would like to enlighten me on the problems with comparing like for like valuation methods on the same car? 

[PBOCT]

What no-one seems to mention in this thread is that having the fix done means we'll each be making a small contribution to reducing NOx levels and thereby a small contribution to countering global warming. There's a small risk of marginally poorer performance / mpg but isn't it worth it if future generations will have a habitable planet? 

[langers2k]

13 minutes ago, PBOCT said:

What no-one seems to mention in this thread is that having the fix done means we'll each be making a small contribution to reducing NOx levels and thereby a small contribution to countering global warming. There's a small risk of marginally poorer performance / mpg but isn't it worth it if future generations will have a habitable planet? 

 

What's to say that the fix is actually reducing real world emissions? I've not seen any data to suggest it's the case.

 

About 6 months ago an Italian consumer group claimed the real world emissions of an Audi Q5 actually increased by 25% after the fix was applied.

[Redfab]

39 minutes ago, PBOCT said:

What no-one seems to mention in this thread is that having the fix done means we'll each be making a small contribution to reducing NOx levels and thereby a small contribution to countering global warming. There's a small risk of marginally poorer performance / mpg but isn't it worth it if future generations will have a habitable planet? 

 

And a very small contribution it is.

Pity others cant do the same:-

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/07/david-cameron-uk-ministers-criticised-flying-paris-climate-talks

 

But lets not get political about it.

Im not having mine done.  It runs fine.

[Breezy_Pete]

1 hour ago, PBOCT said:

What no-one seems to mention in this thread is that having the fix done means we'll each be making a small contribution to reducing NOx levels and thereby a small contribution to countering global warming. There's a small risk of marginally poorer performance / mpg but isn't it worth it if future generations will have a habitable planet? 

The main problem with NOx is that in big cities it builds up to levels that cause breathing difficulties. The quantities are tiny compared with CO2 output which is the primary climate change emission from cars. 

Any worsening of mpg (which means raising of CO2 output) including by migration to less efficient petrol-engined cars means VW'S cheating will be very bad news for CO2/climate.

Edited 30 January, 2017 by Wino

[chimaera]

3 hours ago, langers2k said:

 

What's to say that the fix is actually reducing real world emissions? I've not seen any data to suggest it's the case.

 

About 6 months ago an Italian consumer group claimed the real world emissions of an Audi Q5 actually increased by 25% after the fix was applied.

ADAC have done the testing on a 1.2 and 2.0 TDI before and after the update.

 

Bottom line was that on drive cycles that mimic real world conditions more closely, NOx emissions improved substantially after the update, while NEDC was unchanged.

 

Golf 2.0 TDI: https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/eco-test/diesel_messung/default.aspx?ComponentId=266205&SourcePageId=31832

Polo 1.2 TDI: https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/eco-test/polo_messung/default.aspx?ComponentId=281668&SourcePageId=31832

 

Golf NOx emissions: blue is before, orange is after. NEFZ is NEDC; WLTC is the new standard drive cycle being introduced for Euro 6c; BAB is a motorway test cycle.

 

Polo NOx emissions.

[langers2k]

1 hour ago, chimaera said:

ADAC have done the testing on a 1.2 and 2.0 TDI before and after the update.

 

Bottom line was that on drive cycles that mimic real world conditions more closely, NOx emissions improved substantially after the update, while NEDC was unchanged.

 

Interesting test results but while the WLTC is 'an improvement' on the NEDC, it's still hardly realistic.

 

Just as an example, I believe it's completed at a lab temperature of 23'C +/- 3'C. As there is evidence of various car manufactures turning off emissions control equipment 'to protect the engine' as temperature drops, some do this as high as 18'C, I would argue that none of the tests done are representative of real world driving for the majority of Europe.

 

If there were serious about reducing emissions they need to do tests at a range of temperatures/driving cycles and show improvements across the board rather than hiding behind unrealistic standardised tests.

 

I can't comment on the BAB motorway test as I don't know what environmental variables are used.

[chimaera]

Just now, langers2k said:

 

Interesting test results but while the WLTC is 'an improvement' on the NEDC, it's still hardly realistic.

 

Just as an example, I believe it's completed at a lab temperature of 23'C +/- 3'C. As there is evidence of various car manufactures turning off emissions control equipment 'to protect the engine' as temperature drops, some do this as high as 18'C, I would argue that none of the tests done are representative of real world driving for the majority of Europe.

 

If there were serious about reducing emissions they need to do tests at a range of temperatures/driving cycles and show improvements across the board rather than hiding behind unrealistic standardised tests.

 

I can't comment on the BAB motorway test as I don't know what environmental variables are used.

No lab test is completely realistic and for sure manufacturers are optimising vehicles to suit the tests. Turning off the emissions controls is a loophole in the emissions regulations that manufacturers will exploit regardless of test cycle. People will always look for loopholes in standardised testing no matter what the situation is, because there's usually an advantage accruing from a good result.

 

BAB 130 motorway test cycle: https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/adac_bab.php

Basically 10 minutes running at 130 km/h with the aircon switched on. Realistic for a lot of high mileage drivers. I'm having trouble finding out what environmental temperatures are used though.

 

Standardised tests are always going to be a bit unrealistic because of the idealised conditions they're run under. Their primary function is comparative and for certification. You can look at the results for different vehicles and say that vehicle A is better than vehicle B. It is for the regulators to ensure that the comparison is useful. ADAC have a useful presentation on test cycles here: https://www.iea.org/media/workshops/2013/gfeilabelling/09.IEAWorkshop_ADAC_greenscoring_EN.pdf

 

While looking for info on BAB 130 I came across this study carried out by ÖAMTC (Austrian version of ADAC) and the Vienna University of Technology on 4 vehicles which again shows that the update doesn't have a detrimental effect: http://www.skodaforhandlere.no/globalassets/20160627-oamtc_rk_27062016_en.pdf

 

They partnered with ADAC and the Swiss equivalent(TCS) for some of the testing (ÖAMTC tested 2 Audi A4s, the ADAC test was the Golf I posted earlier, and TCS tested another Audi A4). Interestingly this report includes data from an RDE test (driving the car on open roads with mobile emissions monitoring equipment on board) and this also shows a reduction in NOx and CO2, while also hinting at improved perofrmance.

[simoncb]

Is it just me? Generally looking at the complaints it would seem that the 'bog standard' engine tune 140bhp for 2l etc, seem to suffer worse than the vRS higher tuned engines. If I was being cynical I think that is because the vRS driver is much more interested in the performance of the car and so more likely to notice a hit in the figures. If an overall average NOx reduction was being sought by VW this would be one way to achieve it. Perhaps someone with more time on their hands could do a count back, there are quite a number of emails recording this and post a response?

[jmattley]

I had my VRS CR 170 done a couple of weeks back. I can't tell the difference to be honest. It might actually be slightly better on fuel by a couple of MPG. I almost wanted it to be rubbish to find an excuse for a pricey remap, but so far it seems fine! I also now have a wedding to save for, so no remap for me haha.

[brownfox]

Has anybody got a rolling road test before and after the fix.A donour car should have gone through perphaps aided by briskoda this would prove or disprove the fix