EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[CWARD]

@S00perb 

[domhnall]

50 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Ironic that many industries that required state aid couldn't under EU law and are no longer here. Some that required intervention from the EU to prevent dumping from outside the EU but nothing was done. I wonder how those people voted, probably the same way as those that used to have a job that relocated to Eastern Europe with the help of EU grants. 

 

I think you misunderstand the law, state aid is only an issue if the state if funding somethign that crowds out what private companies are doing. So in the case of BT other providers complained that their main rival BT was gettign unfair help in the shape of underpinning the pension scheme. If there had been no other telecoms providers then it woudl have been legit to give a hand to BT. 

So if an industry needs state aid to survive then it is OK. As for dumping from outside the EU, there were plans to deal with that (CHinese steel for example) but the UK blocked those initiatives. 

 

[domhnall]

Just noticed that in the 9 months since we bought my new laptop the cost has gone from £524 to £704. That's an impressive jump. This weak currency is great isn't it?

[gadgetman]

1 hour ago, CWARD said:

probably the same way as those that used to have a job that relocated to Eastern Europe with the help of EU grants. 

Something as misreported as straight bananas. 

 

The majority or these grants is for the redundancy and retraining of existing workers who are losing their jobs. 

 

It isn't payment to move to a cheaper jurisdiction as claimed. 

[CWARD]

2 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

I think you misunderstand the law, state aid is only an issue if the state if funding somethign that crowds out what private companies are doing. So in the case of BT other providers complained that their main rival BT was gettign unfair help in the shape of underpinning the pension scheme. If there had been no other telecoms providers then it woudl have been legit to give a hand to BT. 

So if an industry needs state aid to survive then it is OK. As for dumping from outside the EU, there were plans to deal with that (CHinese steel for example) but the UK blocked those initiatives. 

 

 

Close but not quite.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-bt-group-courts/eu-court-says-uk-guarantee-on-bt-pension-fund-is-illegal-idUKKCN0IB0UL20141022 

 

Other rivals complained that BT subsidiaries mainly Openreach were supporting the BT pension scheme and thereby giving an unfair advantage.

https://www.ft.com/content/7bb238b6-52f8-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60

 

If state aid can used to protect against sudden market fluctuations designed to undermine competition as happened with the Chinese steel dumping then it should to protect those jobs. The EU allows loans for Ford to invest in Turkey and then move jobs there but a state can't help it's own industry but the EU is supposed to protect all it internal markets. Something seems very off there but then at the time the EU were trying to get Turkey ready to join as a member. 

State subsidy to allow an industry to operate when it is noncompetitive or to undermine the competition though shouldn't be allowed which is different from short measures which is what the EU tariffs should have reacted to which at 73% where inadequate compared to USA 190% on Chinese steel.   

[CWARD]

11 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

Something as misreported as straight bananas. 

 

The majority or these grants is for the redundancy and retraining of existing workers who are losing their jobs. 

 

It isn't payment to move to a cheaper jurisdiction as claimed. 

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-011072&language=EN

[S00perb]

58 minutes ago, domhnall said:

Just noticed that in the 9 months since we bought my new laptop the cost has gone from £524 to £704. That's an impressive jump. This weak currency is great isn't it?

Our exchange rate is crippling - just looking at buying a camera lens, bit of a shock at £799 so I checked out the US market $799 !!!!!

Those who complained about rip off Britain aint seen nothing yet

[CWARD]

 

2 minutes ago, S00perb said:

Our exchange rate is crippling - just looking at buying a camera lens, bit of a shock at £799 so I checked out the US market $799 !!!!!

Those who complained about rip off Britain aint seen nothing yet

 

Hope you factored in the US taxes too depending on where you're buying it from as the UK prices include import duties and VAT which the equivalent US price doesn't. 

 

Most of Europe is getting stuffed on US pricing and strong $ more than us but don't let that stop your distortion on the facts. Just look at he latest iPhone pricing discrepencies

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/14/much-does-iphone-x-cost-around-world/  

[@Lee]

Another banking group making a Brexit. Oops.
https://nltimes.nl/2017/09/13/japanese-bank-mufg-confirms-move-amsterdam-brexit

 

[S00perb]

11 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

 

Hope you factored in the US taxes too depending on where you're buying it from as the UK prices include import duties and VAT which the equivalent US price doesn't. 

 

Most of Europe is getting stuffed on US pricing and strong $ more than us but don't let that stop your distortion on the facts. Just look at he latest iPhone pricing discrepencies

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/14/much-does-iphone-x-cost-around-world/  

Are you seriously trying to make out that our appalling exchange rate isn't putting prices up?

[S00perb]

12 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Another banking group making a Brexit. Oops.
https://nltimes.nl/2017/09/13/japanese-bank-mufg-confirms-move-amsterdam-brexit

 

A lot of adverts looking for contractors to work on exit plans, so a lot more news like this to come.

London WAS the gateway to Europe for many companies, specially banking. That is just going to out the window.

[CWARD]

16 minutes ago, S00perb said:

Are you seriously trying to make out that our appalling exchange rate isn't putting prices up?

 

no but it's not the only factor either like you try to make out otherwise how do you explain the variations for all the other countries on that link I gave you or are just ignoring these as they don't fit your arguement

[KenONeill]

43 minutes ago, S00perb said:

Our exchange rate is crippling - just looking at buying a camera lens, bit of a shock at £799 so I checked out the US market $799 !!!!!

Those who complained about rip off Britain aint seen nothing yet

Tout est allez a la meme chose.

 

Or, in other words, this has been the case for literally decades, rather than just since the Brexit referendum.

[domhnall]

40 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

 

Hope you factored in the US taxes too depending on where you're buying it from as the UK prices include import duties and VAT which the equivalent US price doesn't. 

 

Most of Europe is getting stuffed on US pricing and strong $ more than us but don't let that stop your distortion on the facts. Just look at he latest iPhone pricing discrepencies

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/14/much-does-iphone-x-cost-around-world/  

 

erm same supplier, same machine, 9 months ago it was a lot cheaper. We bought another one just before the brexit vote and it was cheaper still. (and had more memory and a beefier processor)

 

Edited 14 September, 2017 by domhnall

[domhnall]

1 hour ago, CWARD said:

 

Close but not quite.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-bt-group-courts/eu-court-says-uk-guarantee-on-bt-pension-fund-is-illegal-idUKKCN0IB0UL20141022 

 

Other rivals complained that BT subsidiaries mainly Openreach were supporting the BT pension scheme and thereby giving an unfair advantage.

https://www.ft.com/content/7bb238b6-52f8-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60

 

If state aid can used to protect against sudden market fluctuations designed to undermine competition as happened with the Chinese steel dumping then it should to protect those jobs. The EU allows loans for Ford to invest in Turkey and then move jobs there but a state can't help it's own industry but the EU is supposed to protect all it internal markets. Something seems very off there but then at the time the EU were trying to get Turkey ready to join as a member. 

State subsidy to allow an industry to operate when it is noncompetitive or to undermine the competition though shouldn't be allowed which is different from short measures which is what the EU tariffs should have reacted to which at 73% where inadequate compared to USA 190% on Chinese steel.   

 

 

quoting from Huffington Post to show the blame for this lies with the UK for PREVENTING the EU from tackling Chinese steel dumping.

 

The Government is today still blocking an EU plan to tackle the flood of cheap Chinese steel into the UK, despite the industry being on the brick of collapse.

The Department for Business confirmed to the Huff Post UK this afternoon it remained opposed to the EU axing the so-called ‘lesser-duty’ rule, which would allow increased tariffs to be placed on Chinese steel.

 

The measure was first floated in 2013, but as recently as February Business Secretary Sajid Javid was speaking out against such a move.

But today, as Anna Soubry insisted the Government was looking at “all the options” to help steel workers keep their jobs in Port Talbot and beyond, it was confirmed her department would keep blocking the axing of the ‘lesser duty’ rule.

 

A spokesman for EUROFER, the European Steel Association, expressed shock at the Government’s continued anti-tariff stance.

He said: “We can’t really understand why they can’t do whatever it takes to fix the system. They had the opportunity.  “Scrapping the lesser duty rule is a huge difference.”

Axing the rule would allow the EU to impose higher tariff charges on steel coming into continent as a way of counteracting the aggressive production of countries such as China.

 

 

[CWARD]

13 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

erm same supplier, same machine, 9 months ago it was a lot cheaper. We bought another one just before the brexit vote and it was cheaper still. (and had more memory and a beefier processor)

 

 

erm...  GBP to US$    01/06/16   $1.44/£1

                                     today         $1.33/£1

                                    

7% drop in exchange rate since Brexit. If your laptop has increased by 35% (now £704 was £524) where is the other 28% increase from if it's not just exchange rates? Is it something else effecting the price or BS

[CWARD]

38 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

quoting from Huffington Post to show the blame for this lies with the UK for PREVENTING the EU from tackling Chinese steel dumping.

 

The Government is today still blocking an EU plan to tackle the flood of cheap Chinese steel into the UK, despite the industry being on the brick of collapse.

The Department for Business confirmed to the Huff Post UK this afternoon it remained opposed to the EU axing the so-called ‘lesser-duty’ rule, which would allow increased tariffs to be placed on Chinese steel.

 

The measure was first floated in 2013, but as recently as February Business Secretary Sajid Javid was speaking out against such a move.

But today, as Anna Soubry insisted the Government was looking at “all the options” to help steel workers keep their jobs in Port Talbot and beyond, it was confirmed her department would keep blocking the axing of the ‘lesser duty’ rule.

 

A spokesman for EUROFER, the European Steel Association, expressed shock at the Government’s continued anti-tariff stance.

He said: “We can’t really understand why they can’t do whatever it takes to fix the system. They had the opportunity.  “Scrapping the lesser duty rule is a huge difference.”

Axing the rule would allow the EU to impose higher tariff charges on steel coming into continent as a way of counteracting the aggressive production of countries such as China.

 

 

 

There is also two sides to every tale and whilst I have no respect for the actions of Sajid Javid he was the business secretary on British Government. The increases in tariffs would have come from the EU Council to be voted on by the European Parliament. Sajid Javid would have to had some special status to change the will of the EU by himself.

UK steel was already under pressure from Germany that was making British Steel more expensive due to the strong £. This had been on going since before the financial crash. The Chinese were already upping there production and when the Asian construction slowed which was their main market they started to dump their steel all around the world. Europe was still unaffected by this at the time and slowed production to tick over with the demand they had for existing contracts and the cheap steel from China benefited other European businesses with higher profits so were in rush to increase tariffs.

 

Quote

The EU could increase tariffs on Chinese steel. But the EU has already decided not to do that in order to protect the thousands of European companies who would suffer if they were required to buy more expensive European steel.

If Britain left the EU, the government could nationalise the steel industry or pump cash into the ailing industry.

But even that might not be the right thing to do. It's not really viable, considering the loss-making Port Talbot site alone haemorrhages over £1 million per day. And who would buy the UK's nationalised steel on the international markets, given that it costs more than everyone else's?

So the grim reality is that this isn't all China's fault, and the UK may better off just closing everything down. 

The EU has to take some responsibility for this, and it could start by offering unemployed steel workers retraining and education to get them into new jobs, or relocation funds so they can move to other places where their skills are needed. That doesn't sound as dramatic or politically exciting as demanding economic punishment for China or the nationalisation of UK steel.

Source

  

[@Lee]

What steel industry?

[CWARD]

2 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

What steel industry?

 

Exactly. Increase tariffs against cheap imports and reduce profits for European companies or sacrifice an industry under non EU ownership and the losses of jobs. With most industry heading east they may as well ensure the German steel industry benefits and sod the UK. 

[@Lee]

Mammaries north?

Quote

MPs have launched an inquiry into the state of Brexit negotiations after the latest round ended in recriminations about a lack of progress.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-latest-mps-launch-inquiry-uk-government-strategy-minimal-progress-eu-juncker-a7946471.html

[Ootohere]

Maybe not the Steel Industry of old, but then any jobs must be worthwhile and a revival must be a good thing for the Central Belt & the Fort William area.

Mony a mickle maks a muckle.

http://libertyhousegroup.com/news/labour-leader-briefed-on-reawakening-of-scottish-steelworks 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41252778 

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41255306# 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41266016 

Always a little bit more for the UK kitty for spending on overseas aid to poorer countries and to the money required to help rebuild the British Overseas Territories that like secrecy as they are British Dependencies but Tax Havens with thousands of wealthy registered companies.

 

Edited 14 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[S00perb]

Sounds to me like there is some kind of "anything that went wrong in the last 20 years was down to the EU" and "anything that goes wrong now is down to the Remainers" and soon it will be "anything that goes wrong in the future will be down to how nasty the EU was to us when we left"

As I heard on the radio a few days ago "we voted to make a hole in the boat and it's only democrtic to let it sink"

Back to Scotland for me if they get independence or France if not. I'm not sinking with this lot.

 

[Ootohere]

The SNP do not want Independence from the rest of the UK, that is why they allow Alex Salmond to hang about like a bad smell making statements and media appearances so that it is guaranteed that those that would have a Vote if there was another neverendum will vote stay as they are.

 

He was crapping himself that the Scottish Referendum Vote might be leave. That is why the other Scottish Income Streams other than from oil were not given much of a mention. The deals with China are done, and more to come, the Scottish Government just need to allow the Fracking to begin and then they will meet their promises they gave and the voting public will have little they can do about that if they do not like it.

Obviously the Scottish Greens will be offski, but Scottish Labour is no opposition, and as for Scottish Conservatives, they will go and do as the Conservative & Unionist Head Office tells them, and Fracking is happening as well in the top half of England soon enough.

 

The EU money is going to stop coming in but somehow the Magic Money Tree seems to be producing the goods to keep the not very high population 

in the way they like to be kept.

[lol-lol]

Germans invade London !

 

Apparently heading to take the head of an ageing French General called Arse en.

In two previous conflicts it apparently has ended very badly for the French.

 

English bystanders have to wait an extra hour as UK bobbies and transport system struggling with these non UK people checking their intentions.

Edited 14 September, 2017 by lol-lol

[lol-lol]

Arsenal fans throwing prawn sandwiches but apparently the Koln fans smell really nice.  Going to be past midnight CET time before finish, if it even starts.

 

 

2105 Hrs BST- 2205 CET

 

The visiting Germans said it was all a big mis-understanding and they have kicked off the meeting with Le Arsenal.

 

In other matters the English team has decided to join the Artic and Island league with Iceland, Faroes, Norway and the other countries of these fair British Isles.   Apparently Wales will be seeded higher than England as will Iceland.  

It is not sure if Scotland will be able to enter a team as the only have players of under 12 or Pub league standard.   

 

 

Stope Press - Koln 1-nil up, first of many probably, Worldie.  

 

 

Edited 14 September, 2017 by lol-lol