Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[ppejic]

so far... except fraud, we don't know anything for sure. Can we believe them what will the fix do regarding to performance/efficiency properties of our cars?
They will also try to minimize recall costs also.

[gadgetman]

If the code really was inactive in EU cars, and VW knew they could prove this, they wouldn't have had to 'fess-up' to the cars being affected, would they?

Or replace hardware on non US cars as part of this 'fix'.

[Rooted]

What Updates that goes on the ECU's on the cars might well just have to be Software,

 but some of those ECU's if they need replaced with a New one is Hard Ware and Software.

 

They might want cheap Recalls, but then what VW wants might not be what VW gets.

 

Even if they get away with 60 minutes of a Dealerships time and a VW System Software Update.

 

As long as anyone disrupted and having to spend their time dealing with taking a vehicle in Charges VW an Hourly rate 

like a Dealership would charge them.

That will be at least £60 an hour at a UK rate.

 

If VW UK ask why that, tell them they are getting a 'Goodwill Gesture' you are giving them a discount.

[Breezy_Pete]

I think they would have to admit the software was there, otherwise when it was discovered, even if inactive or never used it would still damage reputation.

That's why perhaps the only impact will be no impact at all, but what we should be seeking is more technical detail, or it's always going to be speculation. I've no idea how source code for an ECU is constructed, compiled or executed, but the same principles will apply as in other software development.

Question is whether any source code still exists that anyone will ever find.... Or be able to identify. It's quite possible that all the evidence of the development has been destroyed once the software in question was released to manufacturing.

I expect the vastness of the debacle means we will never find out unless someone involved in the actual software development comes clean...

 

That would be very, very odd.

Implausible I'm afraid unless done as part of a cover-up, but in a 'dog ate my homework' way, wildly unconvincing even in that context.

[gadgetman]

What Updates that goes on the ECU's on the cars might well just have to be Software,

but some of those ECU's if they need replaced with a New one is Hard Ware and Software.

They might want cheap Recalls, but then what VW wants might not be what VW gets.

Even if they get away with 60 minutes of a Dealerships time and a VW System Software Update.

As long as anyone disrupted and having to spend their time dealing with taking a vehicle in Charges VW an Hourly rate

like a Dealership would charge them.

That will be at least £60 an hour at a UK rate.

If VW UK ask why that, tell them they are getting a 'Goodwill Gesture' you are giving them a discount.

By hardware options was referring to the catalytic converters and injectors VW has said a number of engines will require.

Why if it's just a software code issue affecting only the US?

[Ryeman]

By hardware options was referring to the catalytic converters and injectors VW has said a number of engines will require.

Why if it's just a software code issue affecting only the US?

If only that was the case!

I still fear not.

[aerofurb]

Regarding an alleged current drop in affected cars from VAG, is that an actual fact or just reported that someone has been told that by a dealer/trader? Surely, any car salesman is going to milk the situation in their favour - have they dropped the buying price of the vehicles in their stock 'by a few thousand' as well...? 

 

I'm firmly in the 'let's wait and see' camp what happens in the UK to my UK spec Yeti.  

 

 

 

By the way, I'm not sure why a poster stating they don't understand a post from another poster can be deemed abuse. I'm really struggling understanding what has been written in some posts (mostly the anti-VAG continuous rant items) - nothing personal, just simply that sometimes what is written doesn't make sense.  

[Rooted]

Hard Wear might well just be a Catalytic System, Injectors, Fuel Pumps, Tanks, Water Pumps. but an ECU is also Hard Ware,

a 'Component' that might or may need replaced.

 

So let us see what 'Hard Ware' any vehicles might need, because some things seem to be Lost in Translation, 

or the usual Vague Talk and Announcements that Volkswagen Make.

 

Even Motoring Media and the General Media seem to really not get actually what is being said,

or more importantly, what is not being said, or announced or owned up to.

 

Skoda, VW, Audi, Seat have had to replace quite a few hundred engines in the UK over the past 4 years.

New or Remanufactured Engines shipped in,  

Dealer Replaces,  Software Update done, and Engine no worky, wonky, not fixed, not running.

New ECU needs Ordered, Delivered & installed.

 

VW keep changing ECU's Locking them and the likes.

Sometimes over a 5 Year Production run of Euro 5 Petrol engines there can be 2 Types, 

5 Externally Different and internally difference ECUs. several Updates & ECU's that can be Remapped 

only with opening, ones that can be Flashed via the OBD, and ones that Dealers even say there is no Updates for.

 

Diesels are not that much different in some cases.

 

http://revotechnik.com/support/technical/factory-locked-ecus

[MoggyTech]

Technical interlude number three 

 

If EU cars contain the illegal emissions software and it is not activated, it still has to me removed as it's illegal. Simples.

Removal of the software will require an ECU code update, not technically a remap. 

Given that EU cars passed the emission regulations in the lab, and that no current system exists for road testing emissions, there is no need to cobble cars with lower power, and or increased fuel consumption.

[gadgetman]

Regarding an alleged current drop in affected cars from VAG, is that an actual fact or just reported that someone has been told that by a dealer/trader? Surely, any car salesman is going to milk the situation in their favour - have they dropped the buying price of the vehicles in their stock 'by a few thousand' as well...?

I'm firmly in the 'let's wait and see' camp what happens in the UK to my UK spec Yeti.

By the way, I'm not sure why a poster stating they don't understand a post from another poster can be deemed abuse. I'm really struggling understanding what has been written in some posts (mostly the anti-VAG continuous rant items) - nothing personal, just simply that sometimes what is written doesn't make sense.

The valuation guides have already written down cars values. Last I read in one of the stacks of articles is that a more significant drop will be reflected in the next prices update towards the end of the month which will reflect the VW announced likely fixes (as in some requiring hardware changes).

Already the guides have put an initial 0.6-1.6% off. Could we see 5%+ by the end of the month?

[Rooted]

If that is true, 

the Value on the accounts of Franchised / Official VWG Dealerships stock is all devalued.

Money borrowed to buy Used cars for their stock. 

they paid too much now for cars they took as trade ins and the projected resale value.

 

Big discussions to be had with their Banks and Finance companies, and goodwill that VW will need to give Car Dealers.

They will be hoping Used Values are not hit over any length of time.

[gadgetman]

Yup. Also why the local VW dealership haven't chased my interest in the new Touran.

[Rooted]

The Volkswagen Group Management & Board will need to get a shift on and make full and honest confessions because 

they seem to be just carrying on as they have done for decades, and it is not going to end well for them.

 

http://theregister.co.uk/2015/10/10/vw_boss_engineers_blame

But that stuff in the 'Written Testimonial' is about North America, and VW / Audi 2.0 litres, 

the 1.2, 1.6 & 2.0 litres are what are concerning many other Owners in other World Regions.

[Ryeman]

The Volkswagen Group Management & Board will need to get a shift on and make full and honest confessions because 

they seem to be just carrying on as they have done for decades, and it is not going to end well for them.

 

http://theregister.co.uk/2015/10/10/vw_boss_engineers_blame

But that stuff in the 'Written Testimonial' is about North America, and VW / Audi 2.0 litres, 

the 1.2, 1.6 & 2.0 litres are what are concerning many other Owners in other World Regions.

From Horn

It was just a couple of rogue software engineers.......

What was he thinking!?

[essexalan]

I have a friend who works at a company in the UK that makes catalytic converters and they do supply to VAG. Now when this emission scandal blew up so the orders dried up and their stock value went down. In the last week or so there has been a large if not massive order from VAG so read in that what you will. Unable to confirm this of course and I do not know whether these CCs are for just petrol engines or not. 

As for the rogue software engineers comment the US will not be at all happy with that.

[Breezy_Pete]

From Horn

It was just a couple of rogue software engineers.......

What was he thinking!?

Saying what he was told to say, presumably, rather than thinking as such?

[vrskeith]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-six-things-firm-could-cut

[chadlington]

That would be very, very odd.

Implausible I'm afraid unless done as part of a cover-up, but in a 'dog ate my homework' way, wildly unconvincing even in that context.

 

That's my point - if you wanted to cover it up, once any source is compiled into the code that runs in the car, it would be extremely hard to reverse engineer back. So if you're after covering your traces, a one-off build masquerading as some more innocent change would not be hard to achieve - remove all traces of the change from any development systems and the job's done. 

[Llanigraham]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-six-things-firm-could-cut

 

Very speculative.

[vxh26]

<SNIP>  I'm really struggling understanding what has been written in some posts (mostly the anti-VAG continuous rant items) - nothing personal, just simply that sometimes what is written doesn't make sense.  

Yup, depressing but kinda par for the course really. It is not as if there aren't suggestions that other manufacturers at much the same game and Car Manufacturers have lied about MPG for decades with general acceptance.

 

That's my point - if you wanted to cover it up, once any source is compiled into the code that runs in the car, it would be extremely hard to reverse engineer back. So if you're after covering your traces, a one-off build masquerading as some more innocent change would not be hard to achieve - remove all traces of the change from any development systems and the job's done. 

In my experience that is not the way professional software development works - as has been suggested, the "God ate my homework" aint gonna fly.

Edited 10 October, 2015 by vxh26

[VAGCF]

Very speculative.

 

It's not pretending to be other than that.

 

We all know that this is going to cost VWG a fortune over a long time and there will be cuts.

 

It's no different to us speculating over what the fixes will be.

 

We're human, we're inquisitive, like to speculate and discuss.

[chadlington]

In my experience that is not the way professional software development works - as has been suggested, the "God ate my homework" aint gonna fly.

 

We all have different experiences - it's what makes for interesting debates :-) personally, I'd like to see VW forced to publish the relevant source code so that everyone can understand this from the ground up who is interested to.

[fabdavrav]

From what I hear & can't say where from (cough cough) the 2.0lt diesel is a 20 min fix for the UK VW's, no fix on the other engines from HQ yet.

 

So it looks like a VCDS job to erase the "unused code"

[Rooted]

Will your source be charging for 20 minutes labour only then?

 

So the Customer that has to take a vehicle for the fix VW has to do, 

will be charging Travel expenses there and back.

Park, keys handed in, car driven around to the Workshop,  20 Minute Fix, car back around and parked.

40 Minute minimum wait and travel time.

 

£60 an hour comes to £40 for the Owners waiting and then their travel expenses,

 £20 plus VAT minimum for the quick fix labour charge.

lets say £50, because they are not only charging 20 minutes. 30 minutes seems fair.

 

Minimum £110 Service Campaign charge to the Volkswagen Group on the most simple fix.

[fabdavrav]

Will your source be charging for 20 minutes labour only then?

 

I have a petrol so doesn't affect me..................

 

 

& has been stated by VAG they will cover all costs for fixing the cars................