Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[Tony R]

Posted on the Skoda Owners GB Page a few minutes ago

 

http://master.skoda-auto.com/mini-apps/recall-actions

Thanks for this link. I take Skoda's response however with a pinch of salt as my car seems a perfect example of eligibility of being fitted with the bent software ( Oct/Nov. 2010 140 TDI CR 2 ltr diesel ), I initially fed into the enquiry " form " the engine number as shown on the Registration Document but the system would not search so I fed in the chassis number and not only did the Search activate it came back with the answer " No relevant recall campaigns have been launched by SKODA for the entered VIN etc etc. So what does one conclude from Skoda's response, have they not yet fed in all the relevant numbers, and would the answer be different in a week's time.

[Tony R]

If you're having trouble sleeping try

CARPOINT.COM.AU / NEWS

There are some statements such as the suggestion from the German govt that if VW AG don't meet the 7/10 deadline existing vehicles may not be driven until fixed......best of luck with that.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) is all fired up to get involved.......that'll be interesting too.

I may well be particularly dumb but the deceitful software only mis reads the emissions at the time of the test to ensure the vehicle gets through the test but when the car is being used on the road, the software goes back to " normal " and as before, so changing the software should not affect the performance of the car on the road either in terms of mpg, top speed, acceleration or de facto emissions, the whole point of the deceitful software is to operate in it's deformed mode only during the test.

[Ryeman]

I may well be particularly dumb but the deceitful software only mis reads the emissions at the time of the test to ensure the vehicle gets through the test but when the car is being used on the road, the software goes back to " normal " and as before, so changing the software should not affect the performance of the car on the road either in terms of mpg, top speed, acceleration or de facto emissions, the whole point of the deceitful software is to operate in it's deformed mode only during the test.

The issue the German govt is on about is about is what are the 'test emmissions' sans the cheating software then, I imagine (to other manufacturers concern also) how does that compare to real world emmissions.

Then criminal prosecutions to follow.

This won't be solved simply by software but by a number of strategies none of which, I suspect, will be palatable to owners once completed.

Does the company seriously expect owners to accept higher fuel consumption, and lower power/torque as a product ultimately, of deception.

It doesn't seem to difficult to imagine a class action being successful under those circumstances........and VW will know that.

Right now the sweat is poring off their brow.

There needs to be less emphasis on getting specific answers to ever question everyone has, instead sit and wait.

Don't blame Skoda management for seeming tardiness as they are truly the meat in the........

Edited 2 October, 2015 by Ryeman

[Ryeman]

If you've got the time and energy

Drive.com.au today has a considerable rundown particularly from the Australian perspective .......worth a gander I recon.

Edited 2 October, 2015 by Ryeman

[lol-lol]

If you've got the time and energy

Drive.com.au today has a considerable rundown particularly from the Australian perspective .......worth a gander I recon.

 

Not sure you mean this article but yes it does look an interesting site.....

 

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/feature-story-why-emissions-matter-20150930-gjy08d?eid=email:nnn-13omn581-ret_newsl-membereng:nnn-04/11/2013-drive-dom-motoring-nnn-drive-u&campaign_code=13IAU000&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NDgxNzA2MQ

 

Feature story: Why emissions matter   The Volkswagen emissions crisis is set to have far-reaching effects.

 

What do you know about your car?     Many people can recall what year, make and model their car is, how much they paid for it, what features it has and how far it goes on a tank of fuel. Enthusiasts might remember exactly how much power and torque their motor makes, how long it takes to reach 100km/h, and what separates it from key competitors.   Air pollution over the Melbourne horizon in 2015. What about emissions? Few people know how much CO2 or nitrogen oxides their car produces, factors that are increasingly important for new vehicles. The issue shot to the fore last month when Volkswagen was busted for rigging emissions tests in the US to produce results that did not reflect real-world performance.  The decision to mislead environmental authorities looks set to cost Volkswagen more than $80 billion through a drop in share price, lost profits, heavy fines, sweeping recalls, and a $14 billion drop in brand value. It has cost the company's chief executive, research heads and key technical staff their jobs, and for some, it may also cost their freedom as German police investigate how motorists were misled.

Why are emissions important?  Setting aside the Volkswagen crisis, emissions have become a point of urgency for the automotive industry as a whole. These developments serve as a reminder that vehicle pollution is a serious issue, and car  companies are under extreme pressure to reduce vehicle outputs.  The World Health Organisation estimates that three million people die prematurely from air pollution each year, a number it says could double by 2050. While many people affected by poor air quality live in developing nations, a recent report from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology suggests air pollution causes 200,000 premature deaths in the US each year, while the London Mayor's Office estimates nearly 10,000 people die prematurely on an annual basis as a result of poor air quality in the British capital.  The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) says "inhalation exposure to diesel exhaust causes acute and chronic health effects" including asthma, respiratory inflammation and lung cancer. Nitrogen oxides remain a key source of pollution-related respiratory problems, and around 40 per cent of Europe's NOx pollution comes from road transport.Nitrogen oxides are at the core of the EPA's pursuit of Volkswagen, which is alleged to have exceeded legislative limits by 40 times the permitted amount.  Australian Medical Association vice president Dr Stephen Parnis says nitrogen oxides pose a serious problem.  "Australia has the highest incidence of asthma in the world. We need further triggers for diseases like asthma like we need a hole in the head," he says.  AdBlue diesel fuel additives can reduce harmful emissions.  "[but] it's not just an effect on lung disease or emphysema or asthma. This can, potentially, contribute to the development of various cancers."   The more serious issue, Dr Parnis says, is that of CO2 production and global warming, which the health spokesman describes as "the biggest public health problem facing our planet".  Transport emissions from about 17 per cent of Australia's greenhouse gas emissions, and at least 45 per cent of that comes from private road transport. Clearly, the stakes are high.    Emissions testing is currently conducted in controlled laboratory environments.

So, what are we doing about it?  Authorities across the globe are not blind to the hazards posed by poor air quality. Increasingly stringent automotive emissions controls in developed countries are set to become even stricter in the future.  The two key drivers for improved emissions are intertwined.   One element is government regulation in key markets that regularly raise minimum standards for automotive pollution. The other side is rapid industry development that has resulted in technical breakthroughs such as high-pressure direct injection, stop-start systems, brake energy regeneration, conventional and plug-in hybrids, practical electric cars and even the use of urea – otherwise known as AdBlue – to take the edge off harmful diesel exhaust emissions.   The good news is that, as reported by the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Australia's average light vehicle carbon dioxide emissions have dropped by 25.6 per cent since 2000. The industry body expects the trend to continue, reducing fleet average CO2 levels by the same measure again before 2030.  But critics say Australia has a long way to go.   The European Union already abides by strict "Euro6" emissions laws considered among the toughest in the world. Put in place at the beginning of September, the switch from Euro5 to Euro6 regulations reduces the amount of nitrogen oxides diesel cars may produce from 0.180 milligrams per kilometre to 0.080mg/km.  But Australian regulations lag behind Europe, and local authorities will only require Euro6 standards for all new cars from July 1, 2018. A report issued by the National Transport Commission in 2014 also found that the level of CO2 emissions produced by Australian vehicles is a decade behind European standards.  Dr Parnis says the gap isn't good enough.  "Australia lags behind the sort of international standards we should expect and demand," he said.   "Anything that can be done to improve those standards must be brought in and enforced.  "That's absolutely essential - the benefits to the entire community are profound. The air that we breathe is something that everybody requires."    Diesel emissions from passenger cars have not been at the core of Australia's emissions management.  The most recent assessment of car-based transport pollution, the National In-Service Emissions Study of 2009, tested exhaust fumes from 347 cars built between 1994 and 2007.   The project found that vehicle emissions had greatly reduced with time, but that the government should examine diesel and LPG vehicles as "consideration of a separate testing project for these fuels may be warranted".  The Federal Government did not respond to a request for comment surrounding future study of diesel emissions, Volkswagen's emissions breach or green car incentives.  Shadow environment minister Mark Butler says "Labor is serious about tackling climate change and part of that is considering how we reduce emissions from cars".  Planning to introduce national vehicles emissions standards at a later date, Butler says the Federal opposition is "currently developing the detail of this policy".  

Are emissions standards too tough?  The goalposts for minimum efficiency keep shifting. But if the world's second-largest car company can't meet requirements without cheating, is it possible they've been shifted out of reach?  Not as yet. While the limited, laboratory-tested nature of current vehicle energy standards mean official and real-world fuel and emissions rarely add up, there is no evidence that any manufacturers outside the Volkswagen group have cheated in order to meet government requirements.  Audi says its latest Euro6-certified diesel engines are up to scratch and will not require remedial work the way that older Euro5 standard models might.  It is possible to build turbo-diesel cars that meet emissions standards, particularly through clever technology such as selective catalytic reduction with AdBlue fluid that greatly reduces nitric oxides, but that technology comes at a cost.  A bigger challenge lies around the corner, where the European Commission has set tight goals for future carbon dioxide emissions, limiting fleet average emissions for new cars in 2021 to 95 grams per kilometre of CO2, which works out around 4.1L/100kkm of petrol or 3.6L/100km of diesel - a significant drop from the 123.4g/km European average of 2014.  Car makers must produce an average of 95g/km across their fleet, though there are allowances in place for cars that are heavier than average, models that use emerging technology, and low-emissions or electric vehicles.  Manufacturers who exceed the limit must pay €95 per vehicle sold for every gram they exceed the average by – so Volkswagen, which sold 4.4 million cars in Europe last year, would face fines of €418 million ($675 million) for exceeding the fleet CO2 limit by just two grams per kilometre in 2021.  While those standards have not been tabled for Australia, future models sold locally by the likes of Volkswagen, Renault, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are likely to be far more efficient than current offerings.  The Europe-based Transport Environment watchdog says long lead times and lofty targets "are providing the incentive to significantly improve vehicle efficiency and reduce emissions".   But car makers say the upcoming standards may be too tough.  Speaking with Drive at the launch of its XC90 SUV in 2014, Volvo senior vice president of research and development Peter Mertens described upcoming targets as "outrageous and close to being unrealistic", adding that the brand has "no clue how to get there".

Is there a future for diesel?    The Volkswagen issue, along with Increasingly stringent emissions standards, will clearly make life tough for carmakers relying on diesel sales. That won't be helped by what Goldman Sachs investment advisers predict will be a "rapid shift away from diesel", one Bernstein analysts agree will "speed up the fall in diesel market share in Europe and halt it in the US".   Keen to improve its air quality, France offers incentives for motorists to trade-in older diesel models for green cars. Citroen boss Linda Jackson told Drive this week that there is a question mark hovering over the long-term viability of diesel.    "VW has happened and it raises the question of diesel. Where it goes from here, who knows at the moment?" she says.  "I think it is impossible to say where it is going."  The fuel source has been riding a rocky road in Australia.  Key manufacturers such as Ford, Volkswagen and Holden have dropped many small diesel-powered cars in favour of turbo petrol engines in their local lineups, contributing to a 24 per cent drop in private diesel passenger sales for the year to date that follows 17 and 18 per cent reductions in 2014 and 2013.  Diesel's overall market share in Australia continues to grow on the strength of SUV sales, though its market share is steadily falling within that segment too.  The fuel source will still be a fixture for years to come though. Australian Automobile Association spokesman James Vootman says scrutiny surrounding the emissions scandal should be directed at Volkswagen, rather than diesel technology.  "Volkswagen's use of defeat devices raises more questions about the company's credibility than it does the future viability of the diesel engine," he says.  "The more important question being raised by the Volkswagen situation is whether car manufacturers are providing consumers and regulators with performance data that is as accurate as it should be."   But Tesla founder Elon Musk says time is running out for fossil fuelled cars.  "We've reached the limit of what's possible with diesel and gasoline... the time, I think, has come to move to a new generation of technology."   

Back to Volkswagen, then.  Musk may have a point. The law of diminishing returns suggests engineers are close to maximising what can be achieved with current technology, and that further breakthroughs are increasingly unlikely to occur.   Embattled Volkswagen engineers clearly faced an immense technological challenge when working to modern emissions standards. The decision to cheat through tests has not been taken likely, and consequences will be widespread.  Audi says it understands local cars are fitted with software designed to defeat emissions regulators, though that function has not been active in local models.  Volkswagen Australia has only said it is "still awaiting details with regards to our market and specifically which models may be affected".  It's likely that around 50,000 cars in Australia will require a fix of some sort, one that may be as simple as a computer software update.     Volkswagen, along with its Audi, Skoda and Seat subsidiaries, will not be the only companies to pay for the transgression. Every car company is under the microscope, and authorities are set to change the way vehicles are tested.

How can we prevent this from happening again?  Volkswagen's scheme involved using a special program within the powertrain management software of 1.6-litre and 2.0-litre turbo diesel models that can sense whether the car was being driven in real-world conditions or on a treadmill-like "rolling road" laboratory dynamometer used as a standard test for fuel use and emissions. The system was trained to run clean in staged test environments before reverting to a dirtier program in the real world.  That won't happen again under changes underway within the EPA and the European Commission (EC). The EC admits that the current lab-based test cycle for new cars "does not reflect the emissions of vehicles in normal driving conditions", and that real-world nitrogen oxide emissions for diesel vehicles may "exceed substantially" what is officially recorded during regulatory tests.  The commission is "working intensely to develop robust procedures for the emission testing of vehicles in real driving", which will come into effect from January.  At home, South Australian Independent Senator Nick Xenophon is pushing for similar treatment.  Speaking with ABC radio, the politician says the "huge discrepancy" between laboratory and real-world fuel and emissions figures must be addressed.  "What we actually need here is a list of revamp of fuel consumption disclosure to include typical road use," he says.  "There ought to be massive fines for car makers that have gamed fuel figures with a power to give effected motorists compensation."  Similar powers are already in place through the ACCC, which is examining whether Volkswagen breached Australian regulations.   The ACCC is concerned Volkswagen's use of hidden software overseas may have been used to produce fuel economy figures used in Australia as many local figures are derived from overseas tests.  Rod Sims, chair of the commission, says the body is "very concerned about the potential consumer and competition detriment from this alleged conduct".  "Cars are a big purchasing decision and claims that relate to environmental benefits or fuel efficiency can influence consumer choice," he says.  "Businesses must be able to substantiate any claims they make.

[Ryeman]

^^^^thats it

Ta

[Ootohere]

2 Weeks on from VW / Audi being ordered to recall in the United States of Hypicrites, 

&

just as much confusion and mis-information in the EU and Rest of the World now as then.

 

The Volkswagen Way.

3 Monkeys at the top and all the way down.

Hear, See & Say no Evil.

 

& treat the paying Customers like Mushrooms.

Keep in the dark and shovel with sh1te.

 

[moley]

Not sure you mean this article but yes it does look an interesting site.....

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/feature-story-why-emissions-matter-20150930-gjy08d?eid=email:nnn-13omn581-ret_newsl-membereng:nnn-04/11/2013-drive-dom-motoring-nnn-drive-u&campaign_code=13IAU000&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NDgxNzA2MQ

Feature story: Why emissions matter The Volkswagen emissions crisis is set to have far-reaching effects.

What do you know about your car? Many people can recall what year, make and model their car is, how much they paid for it, what features it has and how far it goes on a tank of fuel. Enthusiasts might remember exactly how much power and torque their motor makes, how long it takes to reach 100km/h, and what separates it from key competitors. Air pollution over the Melbourne horizon in 2015. What about emissions? Few people know how much CO2 or nitrogen oxides their car produces, factors that are increasingly important for new vehicles. The issue shot to the fore last month when Volkswagen was busted for rigging emissions tests in the US to produce results that did not reflect real-world performance. The decision to mislead environmental authorities looks set to cost Volkswagen more than $80 billion through a drop in share price, lost profits, heavy fines, sweeping recalls, and a $14 billion drop in brand value. It has cost the company's chief executive, research heads and key technical staff their jobs, and for some, it may also cost their freedom as German police investigate how motorists were misled.

Why are emissions important? Setting aside the Volkswagen crisis, emissions have become a point of urgency for the automotive industry as a whole. These developments serve as a reminder that vehicle pollution is a serious issue, and car companies are under extreme pressure to reduce vehicle outputs. The World Health Organisation estimates that three million people die prematurely from air pollution each year, a number it says could double by 2050. While many people affected by poor air quality live in developing nations, a recent report from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology suggests air pollution causes 200,000 premature deaths in the US each year, while the London Mayor's Office estimates nearly 10,000 people die prematurely on an annual basis as a result of poor air quality in the British capital. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) says "inhalation exposure to diesel exhaust causes acute and chronic health effects" including asthma, respiratory inflammation and lung cancer. Nitrogen oxides remain a key source of pollution-related respiratory problems, and around 40 per cent of Europe's NOx pollution comes from road transport.Nitrogen oxides are at the core of the EPA's pursuit of Volkswagen, which is alleged to have exceeded legislative limits by 40 times the permitted amount. Australian Medical Association vice president Dr Stephen Parnis says nitrogen oxides pose a serious problem. "Australia has the highest incidence of asthma in the world. We need further triggers for diseases like asthma like we need a hole in the head," he says. AdBlue diesel fuel additives can reduce harmful emissions. "[but] it's not just an effect on lung disease or emphysema or asthma. This can, potentially, contribute to the development of various cancers." The more serious issue, Dr Parnis says, is that of CO2 production and global warming, which the health spokesman describes as "the biggest public health problem facing our planet". Transport emissions from about 17 per cent of Australia's greenhouse gas emissions, and at least 45 per cent of that comes from private road transport. Clearly, the stakes are high. Emissions testing is currently conducted in controlled laboratory environments.

So, what are we doing about it? Authorities across the globe are not blind to the hazards posed by poor air quality. Increasingly stringent automotive emissions controls in developed countries are set to become even stricter in the future. The two key drivers for improved emissions are intertwined. One element is government regulation in key markets that regularly raise minimum standards for automotive pollution. The other side is rapid industry development that has resulted in technical breakthroughs such as high-pressure direct injection, stop-start systems, brake energy regeneration, conventional and plug-in hybrids, practical electric cars and even the use of urea – otherwise known as AdBlue – to take the edge off harmful diesel exhaust emissions. The good news is that, as reported by the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Australia's average light vehicle carbon dioxide emissions have dropped by 25.6 per cent since 2000. The industry body expects the trend to continue, reducing fleet average CO2 levels by the same measure again before 2030. But critics say Australia has a long way to go. The European Union already abides by strict "Euro6" emissions laws considered among the toughest in the world. Put in place at the beginning of September, the switch from Euro5 to Euro6 regulations reduces the amount of nitrogen oxides diesel cars may produce from 0.180 milligrams per kilometre to 0.080mg/km. But Australian regulations lag behind Europe, and local authorities will only require Euro6 standards for all new cars from July 1, 2018. A report issued by the National Transport Commission in 2014 also found that the level of CO2 emissions produced by Australian vehicles is a decade behind European standards. Dr Parnis says the gap isn't good enough. "Australia lags behind the sort of international standards we should expect and demand," he said. "Anything that can be done to improve those standards must be brought in and enforced. "That's absolutely essential - the benefits to the entire community are profound. The air that we breathe is something that everybody requires." Diesel emissions from passenger cars have not been at the core of Australia's emissions management. The most recent assessment of car-based transport pollution, the National In-Service Emissions Study of 2009, tested exhaust fumes from 347 cars built between 1994 and 2007. The project found that vehicle emissions had greatly reduced with time, but that the government should examine diesel and LPG vehicles as "consideration of a separate testing project for these fuels may be warranted". The Federal Government did not respond to a request for comment surrounding future study of diesel emissions, Volkswagen's emissions breach or green car incentives. Shadow environment minister Mark Butler says "Labor is serious about tackling climate change and part of that is considering how we reduce emissions from cars". Planning to introduce national vehicles emissions standards at a later date, Butler says the Federal opposition is "currently developing the detail of this policy".

Are emissions standards too tough? The goalposts for minimum efficiency keep shifting. But if the world's second-largest car company can't meet requirements without cheating, is it possible they've been shifted out of reach? Not as yet. While the limited, laboratory-tested nature of current vehicle energy standards mean official and real-world fuel and emissions rarely add up, there is no evidence that any manufacturers outside the Volkswagen group have cheated in order to meet government requirements. Audi says its latest Euro6-certified diesel engines are up to scratch and will not require remedial work the way that older Euro5 standard models might. It is possible to build turbo-diesel cars that meet emissions standards, particularly through clever technology such as selective catalytic reduction with AdBlue fluid that greatly reduces nitric oxides, but that technology comes at a cost. A bigger challenge lies around the corner, where the European Commission has set tight goals for future carbon dioxide emissions, limiting fleet average emissions for new cars in 2021 to 95 grams per kilometre of CO2, which works out around 4.1L/100kkm of petrol or 3.6L/100km of diesel - a significant drop from the 123.4g/km European average of 2014. Car makers must produce an average of 95g/km across their fleet, though there are allowances in place for cars that are heavier than average, models that use emerging technology, and low-emissions or electric vehicles. Manufacturers who exceed the limit must pay €95 per vehicle sold for every gram they exceed the average by – so Volkswagen, which sold 4.4 million cars in Europe last year, would face fines of €418 million ($675 million) for exceeding the fleet CO2 limit by just two grams per kilometre in 2021. While those standards have not been tabled for Australia, future models sold locally by the likes of Volkswagen, Renault, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are likely to be far more efficient than current offerings. The Europe-based Transport Environment watchdog says long lead times and lofty targets "are providing the incentive to significantly improve vehicle efficiency and reduce emissions". But car makers say the upcoming standards may be too tough. Speaking with Drive at the launch of its XC90 SUV in 2014, Volvo senior vice president of research and development Peter Mertens described upcoming targets as "outrageous and close to being unrealistic", adding that the brand has "no clue how to get there".

Is there a future for diesel? The Volkswagen issue, along with Increasingly stringent emissions standards, will clearly make life tough for carmakers relying on diesel sales. That won't be helped by what Goldman Sachs investment advisers predict will be a "rapid shift away from diesel", one Bernstein analysts agree will "speed up the fall in diesel market share in Europe and halt it in the US". Keen to improve its air quality, France offers incentives for motorists to trade-in older diesel models for green cars. Citroen boss Linda Jackson told Drive this week that there is a question mark hovering over the long-term viability of diesel. "VW has happened and it raises the question of diesel. Where it goes from here, who knows at the moment?" she says. "I think it is impossible to say where it is going." The fuel source has been riding a rocky road in Australia. Key manufacturers such as Ford, Volkswagen and Holden have dropped many small diesel-powered cars in favour of turbo petrol engines in their local lineups, contributing to a 24 per cent drop in private diesel passenger sales for the year to date that follows 17 and 18 per cent reductions in 2014 and 2013. Diesel's overall market share in Australia continues to grow on the strength of SUV sales, though its market share is steadily falling within that segment too. The fuel source will still be a fixture for years to come though. Australian Automobile Association spokesman James Vootman says scrutiny surrounding the emissions scandal should be directed at Volkswagen, rather than diesel technology. "Volkswagen's use of defeat devices raises more questions about the company's credibility than it does the future viability of the diesel engine," he says. "The more important question being raised by the Volkswagen situation is whether car manufacturers are providing consumers and regulators with performance data that is as accurate as it should be." But Tesla founder Elon Musk says time is running out for fossil fuelled cars. "We've reached the limit of what's possible with diesel and gasoline... the time, I think, has come to move to a new generation of technology."

Back to Volkswagen, then. Musk may have a point. The law of diminishing returns suggests engineers are close to maximising what can be achieved with current technology, and that further breakthroughs are increasingly unlikely to occur. Embattled Volkswagen engineers clearly faced an immense technological challenge when working to modern emissions standards. The decision to cheat through tests has not been taken likely, and consequences will be widespread. Audi says it understands local cars are fitted with software designed to defeat emissions regulators, though that function has not been active in local models. Volkswagen Australia has only said it is "still awaiting details with regards to our market and specifically which models may be affected". It's likely that around 50,000 cars in Australia will require a fix of some sort, one that may be as simple as a computer software update. Volkswagen, along with its Audi, Skoda and Seat subsidiaries, will not be the only companies to pay for the transgression. Every car company is under the microscope, and authorities are set to change the way vehicles are tested.

How can we prevent this from happening again? Volkswagen's scheme involved using a special program within the powertrain management software of 1.6-litre and 2.0-litre turbo diesel models that can sense whether the car was being driven in real-world conditions or on a treadmill-like "rolling road" laboratory dynamometer used as a standard test for fuel use and emissions. The system was trained to run clean in staged test environments before reverting to a dirtier program in the real world. That won't happen again under changes underway within the EPA and the European Commission (EC). The EC admits that the current lab-based test cycle for new cars "does not reflect the emissions of vehicles in normal driving conditions", and that real-world nitrogen oxide emissions for diesel vehicles may "exceed substantially" what is officially recorded during regulatory tests. The commission is "working intensely to develop robust procedures for the emission testing of vehicles in real driving", which will come into effect from January. At home, South Australian Independent Senator Nick Xenophon is pushing for similar treatment. Speaking with ABC radio, the politician says the "huge discrepancy" between laboratory and real-world fuel and emissions figures must be addressed. "What we actually need here is a list of revamp of fuel consumption disclosure to include typical road use," he says. "There ought to be massive fines for car makers that have gamed fuel figures with a power to give effected motorists compensation." Similar powers are already in place through the ACCC, which is examining whether Volkswagen breached Australian regulations. The ACCC is concerned Volkswagen's use of hidden software overseas may have been used to produce fuel economy figures used in Australia as many local figures are derived from overseas tests. Rod Sims, chair of the commission, says the body is "very concerned about the potential consumer and competition detriment from this alleged conduct". "Cars are a big purchasing decision and claims that relate to environmental benefits or fuel efficiency can influence consumer choice," he says. "Businesses must be able to substantiate any claims they make.

Interesting that the article states that 40% of NOx emissions in Europe come from road transport. What's being done to tackle the 60%?

Most developed countries claim big reductions in Co2 & NOx emissions in recent years, but claim there is an increase in respiratory illness due to poor air quality.

[Gyp]

The figure of £4 billion I would say is a false figure floated by V A G to try to say they are really getting to grips with this deceit whereas if they think by merely replacing the software will be acceptable they should have another think. 4 billion seems an awful lot just to change software and what effect will that have. One thing will of course give a true reading during M O T tests and which presumably will have a drastic effect on the amount of the R F Licence cost. I chose my car because of the supposed mpg and cost of R F L, so if that rises, I will look to V A G for compensation and if the value of my car is reduced now the deceit has come to light they can cough up towards that? Let's be quite honest, V A G set out to deceive and got away with it for several years until some bright spark in California sussed them out. I bet there is some swearing and cursing in Wolfsburg in unprintable terms.

Do you shout at trees?

[lol-lol]

Interesting that the article states that 40% of NOx emissions in Europe come from road transport. What's being done to tackle the 60%?   Most developed countries claim big reductions in Co2 & NOx emissions in recent years, but claim there is an increase in respiratory illness due to poor air quality.

 

Well yes part of the 60% is being tackled by increased renewable power gen, the plan to move to more nuclear and replacing coal power station with fast response 100 MW gas turbine unit as well as reducing agricultural NO which is area I would be interested someone else comment on. 

[langers2k]

What!

Since when did a grovelling apology after an embarrassing ADMISSION OF GUILT represent "overhyped news stories".

 

Yes, they have admitted creating this cheat software and that it activates during the EPA emissions test. We do not know if this is the case for the EU5 test and therefore if it is going to have affect on European motorists apart from potentially removing a unused piece of code in an attempt to restore consumer confidence.

 

But your missing the point entirely they actively saught to deceive and nothing they will do will repair the damage to the brand or diesel cars generally. Lets say the fix is perfectly harmless whos going to beleive them? Some old enough to remember skoda jokes will know that the stigma lasted long after the brand was taken over by vw and they started to make great cars. Some still wouldnt touch a skoda although most now accept the cars a well made. There is absolutley no way this wont affect residual values if not kill off diesel for cars. Anyone remember the recall for audi tt mk1 they had to fit a spoiler because several ended upside down in ditches. Now I dont think there was much wrong with the car but I know loads wouldnt buy them even after the retro fix and this wasnt deliberate neglegnce or deception by audi.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

 

Diesels were getting bad press before this came to light, most of the test vs real world research results we are seeing had already been done and changes to the EU test are planned to try and reduce this gap. Various cities were already planning or have implemented diesel only measures to reduce ownership and therefore emissions. Unless they can be shown to be as 'clean' as other vehicles I suspect over the next 10-20 years there will be decline of the diesel engine regardless of anything VAG have done.

 

As for the fix, I'm am sure that there will be plenty of people doing before/after comparisons to see if there is a unexpected measurable impact to performance or economy, if it is just removing unused (in the European setting) EPA emissions code then I'm not too worried. All talk of a fix is pure speculation at this stage so if it does have negative impacts then we need to revisit this.

 

While I don't condone adding the software in the first place, at least give them a chance to come up with a technically acceptable and consumer friendly plan.They decided to cheat, they were caught, they apologised, now lets see how they handle the clean up. Real world emission are going to come under massive scrutiny in the coming months which is likely to damage the entire industry. I certainly have no issue with buying another VAG group vehicle at this point as I'm damn sure there are plenty of other potentially scandalousness practices across the rest of the industry that we just don't know about.

 

It's early days and that the news stories appeared late in the month but at least in the US both VW (0.56%) and Audi (16.2%) sales were higher in September 2015 than September 2014. October figures might tell a more interesting story...

[langers2k]

Here are the service campaign ID's for each brand, from what I understand the text of the campaign is identical regardless.

 

23Q2 VW/Transport

23Q4 Audi

23Q5 Skoda

23Q6 Seat

[Scribbler]

 

Here are the service campaign ID's for each brand, from what I understand the text of the campaign is identical regardless.

 

23Q2 VW/Transport

23Q4 Audi

23Q5 Skoda

23Q6 Seat

 

 

Interesting was 23Q3 Allocated for Porsche just incase they find 'it' 

[Chriswright03]

Just out of interest I looked on the Mk6 Golf forum regarding this and there was 5 pages!  Just saying.

[Sad555]

I wonder what the USA does or will do with all the Billions of $ from the fines,making cleaner vehicles or producing more weapons for conflicts around the world,just a thought?

[Ootohere]

Chriswright03,

How many pages are there on an Octavia Mk2 Forum,  or an Octavia Mk3 Forum,  Just asking?

 

Like how many on this forum and in this thread do not even run a VW Engine Diesel.

 

Posting on Briskoda and interested and not currently an owner of a Diesel.

.#1

Me.

 

My intention is to buy one cheaply when possible.

Newest possible, Diesel Automatic Estate Euro 5 at rock bottom price if they do start being as popular as 

the media are making out.

[Chriswright03]

Don't know is the answer.  I just think a lot of people are panicking about this.  Like those that checked if their car was one of the many and it wasn't on the list in the morning but was in the afternoon!  So what if it wasn't in the afternoon?  Are they going check every couple of hours or so? 

 

I have just bought a 2.0 VW Golf diesel so suspect it may be part of the drama but it is running fine and as long as it continues to do so I am happy with it.  Rather than check every hour or so to find out if it is one of the naughty ones I will wait unit the dust settles a bit and then see what needs to be done.  It isn't a safety issue and knowing half an hour before someone else does or not won't change the way the car runs or when VW will decided if it needs to be recalled or not.

 

We have 47 pages PLUS all the other countless threads about it and we are still no further forward in either knowing the truth or what if anything will or needs to be done about it all.  I stopped reading this thread some days ago and only came back in for a nosey but lost the will seeing there 20 odd pages to catch up with.  I appreciate it is important and it should never have happened but to be almost on the verge of hysteria is a bit over the top for me.

 

I would say now is a good time to buy a VW group car as the price will be cheaper and you know for sure that it will have to be sorted by VW at some stage.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Just out of interest I looked on the Mk6 Golf forum regarding this and there was 5 pages!  Just saying.

They don't have George.

[Ootohere]

They don't have what a me ?  

Or maybe like you, posts about people & their posts & not on the subject.

 

As to buying,

best maybe to wait till the prices reach rock bottom, then only be prepared to offer less than We Buy any Car.

Tough love on VW Group Franchised Dealers.

They like to say, 'we do not make much profit and so we can not discount' 

we will see just how much they need to to shift used cars.

& somebody has financed them, they borrowed to buy their stock, often from the Motor Auction Company or 

Volkswagen.

http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/Services/BCA-Partner-Finance

 

How many pages would there be in every section of Briskoda for each model if the Moderators had not 

had to lock so many posts / threads as they started, 

and there are were plenty, including in the Fabia Mk1 Section.

[JungleJames]

I think you have missed the point of the article in that it is the apparent facts emerging that diesels, whether with defeat/cheat devices or not, are passing the current emissions test but actually polluting and 10-40 times more than the level we set as the safe level we want.  The articles, whilst no doubt to sell newspaper, some of us want to promote different buying patterns to result in better choice for those cars that appear to, with the current out pouring of information, though I would like to see more than the diesel/petrol cold/warm Scandinavian study shown in a graph a few pages ago that nudge people to the petrol choice rather than the diesel one to reduce premature deaths from NO and PMs which some government figures show are responsible for the majority of emission linked deaths.

 

There is a price for choosing petrol over diesel ie generally more CO2/fuel, but that is weighed against apparently significantly less NO and PMs.    I think the article and the data produced could have been much better, would have like to have seen the 100 best selling diesels against the 100 top selling petrols compared at cold start and warm and even in warm ambient and cold ambient temperatures as the cold/cold combination seems to produce some of the worse results.  Ultimately we are going to end up with petrol-hybrid and them pure electric over the next 5-10 years.

 

Yep bring on more data for petrol cars, in addition to the Scandanavian one above,  so we can make the best comparisons.  Osborne, and even more so European finance ministers, will need to look at the excise and BIK tax system to slant towards encouraging good emissions behaviour though I do not expect GB to lead but at least France and Germany and across the EU etc should move to at least equity in Excise taxing on fuels as CO2 is no longer the emission of most concern but NO and PMs.    

But they fail to mention petrols in the article. That is what is so suspect. They only mention diesels, but I have no doubt petrols will be guilty as well.

 

Oh, and you keep on and on and on and on and on about NO and PMs. Hydrocarbons are even more dangerous than PMs, being so much smaller and easier to ingest and get stuck somewhere they shouldnt. Also extremely cancerous, probably more so than PMs. Then of course CO, which is an extremely poisonous gas. Hybrids are next to no good for journeys that suit a diesel. At best you will end up with similar fuel useage. Most of the time the diesel will win.

 

Both petrols and diesels are responsible for pollution. Not just diesels. We should notbe penalising diesels unless we also penalise petrols. Oh wait, thats exactly what is happening currently with the large taxation on fuel. So where is the problem? Right now the system is quite fair. Start penalising diesels more than petrols, and it is no longer fair.

[ColinD]

Just out of interest I looked on the Mk6 Golf forum regarding this and there was 5 pages!  Just saying.

 

There are probably 2 or more forums for every VW model, we're channeling a hole marque with one or two other outlets. Admittedly for a smaller % of overall users marque:marque. Most of our members also like to discuss and debate or more. Our broad demographic does lean us towards more information discussion and research and less l3wt spk, that and the sweet sound of our own keyboards versus touch screen keypads.

 

I'm not surprised, most of our topics on big items of news run long. In this case, we've merged many posts too as new ones keep popping up that iterate over the same ground. Where model of marque specifics are appearing I'm moving to leave them on there own now, with this topic being the 'generalisation' over specific helper topic.

 

HTH.

[looby]

If it was that easy to meet emissions standards and keep performance and economy with a software tweak that they can come up with in a few days, why would they have taken the risk of having cheat software in the first place?

My thoughts exactly...

[brownfox]

Example what is the difference between a Euro 5 170 cr vrs powertrain and a Euro6 184 cr vrs powertrain,why would it be so difficult to transform the former to the latter.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Example what is the difference between a Euro 5 170 cr vrs powertrain and a Euro6 184 cr vrs powertrain,why would it be so difficult to transform the former to the latter.

It's a physically different engine block, turbo, and so on.

[Ryeman]

My thoughts exactly...

Power and torque as advertised was never achievable without the test cheat to mask the emmissions problem with THAT engine.

A simple software 'tweak' won't be able to achieve the retention of both or either.........without a newer engine series.

That's why VW are in one hell of a bind

Customers with legal advise on one side.........................govt regulators on the other.

Edited 2 October, 2015 by Ryeman