Confirmed Turbocharger failure

[Gaz]

My vRS TSI was in with Skoda earlier this week due to no cabin heating.  This was diagnosed as a Temperature Control Unit fault.

 

On the way home, I had just overtaken, uphill on a dual carriageway, so it had been under load.  Crested the hill, then lost all power and had a huge plume of blue smoke out the rear.  I was less than 1/2 mile from home so coasted to the next roundabout, and the car died about 50 yards from my house.

 

It's done 22,000 miles.  I drive it with mechanical sympathy, although do drive it like a vRS once it's warmed up.  I have had it since new, and had it's first service brought forward several months as a proactive move to protect the longevity of the turbo.  I know there are mixed views about this.  It has only ever been serviced by Skoda and it's third service was at the end of April this year (I bought the first three services at the time of purchase).

 

It seems an odd coincidence to have failed on the way home from investigative work at a Skoda main dealership.  I completely accept that it might just be that; coincidence.

 

Can anyone tell me if there's any link between the TCU and the turbo's temperature?  It's not making sense to me that the turbo has failed, but if there's a potential causative effect with the TCU, then this might explain things.  Again, it could be just one of those things.

 

It's such a shame.  I know it's 'only' a car, but I care about it an awful lot, and am frankly worried sick about the size of the repair bill I might be facing.

 

Ta

 

Gaz

Edited 8 October, 2018 by V6TDI
Another blooming typo!

[ahenners]

How old is the car? At 22k with full Skoda history you should be looking at a decent amount of Goodwill contribution.

Edited 5 October, 2018 by ahenners

[Gaz]

It had it's third Birthday on August 6th.

 

My last four cars have all had turbo's.  Two petrols and two diesels.  Not a peep from any of them.  Can't stop wondering why... how.... should I have driven it harder/like it was a PCP I'd hand back, so it didn't matter.

 

Cruel irony was as I pushed it (on my own) to outside my front door, a delivery company pulled up with my new Gemini to replace the alloy I grazed some time ago.  Suddenly a light kerb graze doesn't seem all that important 

 

G

[threadbear]

Unfortunately it certainly sounds like turbo failure, having experienced A failure on my Mk2 Octavia about 12 years ago. Even back then having an aftermarket Garrett turbo fitted by the local dealer cost well over a grand. I understand your frustration particularly as you obviously care about your VRS. 

 

I have no idea about the time of your visit about the heating issue and the turbo but it does seem a coincidence or purely just back luck. 

[Saints92]

Is the TCU not just the electronic dials on your dash? 

 

There's no chance it's had any effect on your turbo if that's what it is.

[Gaz]

10 hours ago, threadbear said:

..... or purely just back luck. 

 

I think it might be as simple as that.

 

9 hours ago, Saints92 said:

Is the TCU not just the electronic dials on your dash? 

 

No.  It's apparently under the inlet manifold and a bit of a job to do.

 

My thoughts are that the turbo runs at such a high temperature, the TCU is probably likely to have a negligible effect on its temperature management, so lubrication is the main element, along of course with the physics of normal heat dissipation.  But I don't know, so am curious if the TCU did have a role to play in the turbo's untimely demise.

 

Gaz

[classic]

Sorry to hear you’ve had this problem, it does sound like a turbo failure. If it is, I would think you’d get a major goodwill contribution given the age/mileage and service history of your car.

I am very wary of turbos as they are under so much stress it doesn’t take much for one to fail. Equally many turbos do hundreds of thousands of miles, its a bit of a lottery.

I read a lot about these tsi engines before I bought my own car. I am not an expert but in my opinion there could be a link between your temperature control problems and subsequent turbo failure (if that’s what it is..).

There is a very complex temperature control circuit allowing fast warm up and ensuring the turbo is not overheated, particularly after the engine shuts down. This is very important with the stop start system. There is an electric pump for turbo coolant, which the ecu uses at certain times to protect the turbo. It can continue to run after the ignition is off if required.

Personally I always turn off the stop/start system as it’s operation does not fit, in my old school opinion, with good practise in regard to turbo engines.

 

Hope you get it sorted without too much grief.

[Saints92]

12 minutes ago, V6TDI said:

 

I think it might be as simple as that.

 

 

No.  It's apparently under the inlet manifold and a bit of a job to do.

 

My thoughts are that the turbo runs at such a high temperature, the TCU is probably likely to have a negligible effect on its temperature management, so lubrication is the main element, along of course with the physics of normal heat dissipation.  But I don't know, so am curious if the TCU did have a role to play in the turbo's untimely demise.

 

Gaz

 

Fair enough. If the turbos water cooled then there would be logic in a thought process that not bleeding the system after coolant removal correctly could have over heated it.

 

Just pure speculation though, be interesting to hear what the turbo says once it's removed.

[classic]

To add to my previous post - the charge air cooling circuit needs to be bled properly using a vacuum pump, if it has been opened up to air.

1. Car goes in for repair involving the cooling system

2. Part of the car dependent on the cooling system fails on first journey after repair

3. Coincidence ?

Edited 6 October, 2018 by classic

[SuperbTWM]

1 hour ago, classic said:

To add to my previous post - the charge air cooling circuit needs to be bled properly using a vacuum pump, if it has been opened up to air.

1. Car goes in for repair involving the cooling system

2. Part of the car dependent on the cooling system fails on first journey after repair

3. Coincidence ?

The charge air cooler cools air after the turbo not before so will of had no effect either way.

 

As above, if the turbo was water cooled this could of been a factor.

 

Also a possibility if they have had the car apart, is that a foreign object has made its way into the intake system.

 

Edited 6 October, 2018 by SuperbTWM

[Gaz]

1 hour ago, classic said:

There is a very complex temperature control circuit allowing fast warm up and ensuring the turbo is not overheated, particularly after the engine shuts down. This is very important with the stop start system. There is an electric pump for turbo coolant, which the ecu uses at certain times to protect the turbo. It can continue to run after the ignition is off if required.

Personally I always turn off the stop/start system as it’s operation does not fit, in my old school opinion, with good practise in regard to turbo engines.

 

That's really helpful, thank you   Put in those terms, there appears a potential link.

 

Eastbourne Skoda have already said they'll cover replacing the TCU, as the fault showed up only a few weeks outside of warranty, and could have happened within the warranty period as I don't think I'd have used the heater at all since probably May time.  So full credit to them for that - a much appreciated gesture.

 

I also turn stop start off in traffic conditions, never drive off the instant I've started it, always leave it running for a minute when I get home and to this day habitually watched for the oil temperature registering on the maxidot and don't cross 4,000 rpm 'til the oil's gone past 70.  Not sure why 4k rpm, but must've read it somewhere in the dim and distant past.

 

Skoda are continuing to look at it today, but I'm off to work shortly.  Shift finishes at 10pm, so I'm hoping to have conclusive news later today.  I can at least cycle to work - there's a 99% chance of rain on the way there, and the way home 

 

Gaz

 

 

[Gaz]

2 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

Also a possibility if they have had the car apart, is that a foreign object has made its way into the intake system.

 

The car was apart, because Service Reception quickly checked it was all back together when they called me, as I was only ten minutes away by bike.  I wanted to collect the car that evening if possible rather than leave it 'til the following day.

 

Gaz

[classic]

32 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

The charge air cooler cools air after the turbo not before so will of had no effect either way.

 

As above, if the turbo was water cooled this could of been a factor.

 

Also a possibility if they have had the car apart, is that a foreign object has made its way into the intake system.

 

 

The charge air does have water cooling on the 1.4 tsi, if the 2.0 doesn’t then my apologies.

My understanding is that the 2.0 162kw engine (I think that’s the vRS engine) has an even more complex cooling system than the smaller engines. I believe that what V6TDI’s dealer refers to as the Temperature Control Unit is the Rotary Valve Module which is the major part of the Thermal Management System.

Edited 6 October, 2018 by classic

[Gaz]

Update from Skoda; Turbo has gone, and imploded.  They've taken the sump off and there is swarf, so engine potentially fubarred too 

 

Still being investigated as to the extent of the damage, but an anecdotal comment was made that something was loose, so the foreign object possibility might not be so wide of the mark.  This being complete conjecture at the moment.

 

Awaiting further updates....

 

Gaz

Edited 8 October, 2018 by V6TDI

[Gti Jazz Blue]

I hope that you get the outcome that you are hoping for - no cost to yourself for a satisfactory resolution - remember if you make a small contribution to any fix - you should get two years warranty on the work.

[Gabbo]

I'm not familiar with the cooling system on the petrol engines but if I remember correctly the diesel engines use the heat from the turbo charger (coolant or oïl - ???) which is provided to the heater matrix of the cabin heater to provide quicker warmup than waiting for the engine coolant.

 

If this is the same on the petrol than my first thought would be that during the investigation some hasnt replaced something properly causing the turbo to overheat or overspeed....

 

Maybe someone with Erwin can find the coolant matrix diagram for the cabin heaters & turbo charging system?

Edited 8 October, 2018 by Gabbo

[knudsen]

I have This diagram 

 

Edited 8 October, 2018 by knudsen

[SuperbTWM]

It does look like the turbo is water cooled but I think it is probably mainly to get usable heat out of the turbo for heating rather than a lifeline to keep it alive. After all, most turbos only have an oil feed. I still bet 10p that somebody left a 10mm spanner in the inlet pipe 

Edited 8 October, 2018 by SuperbTWM

[logiclee]

1 hour ago, SuperbTWM said:

It does look like the turbo is water cooled but I think it is probably mainly to get usable heat out of the turbo for heating rather than a lifeline to keep it alive. After all, most turbos only have an oil feed. I still bet 10p that somebody left a 10mm spanner in the inlet pipe 

 

Or even a 10mm nut.

[classic]

The turbocharger is water cooled to prevent it from overheating. By the same token it also assists the fast warm up, but the primary reason is to cool it. These turbos are on an exhaust manifold which is integrated into the cylinder head and are vulnerable to coolant boiling in the head and turbo particularly after the engine is stopped. 

Sounds like some kind of mistake with the dismantling/ reassembly like the suggestions above. 

Will be expensive for the garage, I think.

Edited 8 October, 2018 by classic

[GoneToBeemer]

Really unlucky that Gaz, especially as it’s just outside of warranty.

 

Hope you get a decent response from Skoda and at least a decent chunk towards the cost of the repair. I still think for a component such as a turbo to fail at 22k miles can be argued as a manufacturing defect if the car has been maintained to manufacturers spec, but hey ho. Here’s hoping they’re reasonable.

[Gabbo]

The important part for me is the cabin heater matrix is indeed directly connected with the turbo charger cooling system.

Hopefully the garage do a proper investigation & are honest with what they find but it sounds like a complete engine replacement.....

[edbostan]

Now that annual car tax is not based on emissions (apart from the first year premium) I hope we will be having normally aspirated engines with none of these failing gizmos. I too, have a turbo and I don't like the power delivery; driving like a 1.2 litre one moment and that push in the back the next and then running out of steam as you climb the rev range. Mind you investment is going into electric power so the internal combustion engine has had its swansong.

Edited 9 October, 2018 by edbostan

[PetrolDave]

21 minutes ago, edbostan said:

Now that annual car tax is not based on emissions (apart from the first year premium) I hope we will be having normally aspirated engines with none of these failing gizmos. I too, have a turbo and I don't like the power delivery; driving like a 1.2 litre one moment and that push in the back the next and then running out of steam as you climb the rev range.

I had to remember how to get the best from a turbo petrol engine when I got the Octavia - in my younger years I had a couple of turbo cars (including a Renault 5GT Turbo and an Audi S3) but immediately before I had a 4.2L V8 which had a usable rev range from 600rpm to 8600rpm so learning to keep the turbo on-boost took a few weeks to get right.

[gregoir]

17 hours ago, knudsen said:

I have This diagram 

 

 Very interesting. Is the Mk3 1.4TSI similar? Nice to see what some of those visible pipes and sensors are for. I'd an incipient turbo failure (air raid siren noises) on a Mk2 2litre diesel , replaced under warranty,no arguments. I was asked in a joking fashion had I been racing it. The noise started after a moderately swift departure at a T junction with a lukewarm engine.