Turbo Swap Choices for EA211 1.2 TSI

[FabiaGonzales]

1 hour ago, Fab1493 said:

@FabiaGonzales hows the new turbo behaving? Any issues with driveability or reliability?

I've done 26k miles now with the jbs hybrid turbo, it's had two services since, and the oil's come back pretty clean so far.

 

Driveability is great, still got that low down torque and spool is decent, it feels slow but that's cos the turbo has to spin to about 3x the rpm it used to and obviously that's gonna take longer but when it comes in it comes in strong! It hits full boost around 1800rpm.

 

I've got a friend running stage 2 on a completely standard 1.2 engine with a decat exhaust, his is running about 145bhp, we compared the boost vs rpm of both, the hybrid just holds onto it forever (i'm on stock exhaust btw, hence the drop-off after 5k)

 

Blue is JBS Hybrid with standard exhaust, Orange is Stage 2 with decat.

[Monkey_Dan]

52 minutes ago, D16RRY said:

No turbo as the turbos listed on this forum seem to be for EA211 engines , I am looking for a turbo that is compatible with my 1.2 EA111 engine ,if you can point me to any threads that cover this that would be helpful 

Try the Fabia mk2 pages, rtmg do a hybrid if you have the £££

[FabiaGonzales]

44 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

Try the Fabia mk2 pages, rtmg do a hybrid if you have the £££

JBS have a hybrid package too, for 180-190bhp 

[D16RRY]

I dont have the dollars for hybrid turbo and I want to keep it wallet friendly , so are you saying a mk 2 fabia has ea111 engine fitted with bigger turbo ?

 

how much do these hybrid turbos go for ?  I am only after about 150 bhp 

[FabiaGonzales]

7 minutes ago, D16RRY said:

I dont have the dollars for hybrid turbo and I want to keep it wallet friendly , so are you saying a mk 2 fabia has ea111 engine fitted with bigger turbo ?

 

how much do these hybrid turbos go for ?  I am only after about 150 bhp 

For 150bhp, get a decent intake and sport cat exhaust and a good tune on it, you'll see close to that mark.

 

You could try looking at the 1.4 EA111 turbo only engines and see if those turbos might fit, it's possible they might work. Be careful which ones you go for as there's also the twin charged ones which are definitely different lol

[Fab1493]

2 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

I've done 26k miles now with the jbs hybrid turbo, it's had two services since, and the oil's come back pretty clean so far.

 

Driveability is great, still got that low down torque and spool is decent, it feels slow but that's cos the turbo has to spin to about 3x the rpm it used to and obviously that's gonna take longer but when it comes in it comes in strong! It hits full boost around 1800rpm.

 

I've got a friend running stage 2 on a completely standard 1.2 engine with a decat exhaust, his is running about 145bhp, we compared the boost vs rpm of both, the hybrid just holds onto it forever (i'm on stock exhaust btw, hence the drop-off after 5k)

 

Blue is JBS Hybrid with standard exhaust, Orange is Stage 2 with decat.

Wow 26k so thats proving pretty reliable, thats great news!

 

1800 rpm doesnt sound too bad, it almost sounds like it drives like the old turbos from the 90s with plenty of lag but then full boost strong!

 

Its nice to see the difference of the hybrid vs a stage 2 - and boy is that a big difference!

[D16RRY]

Thanks for the info ,without decat  what sought of bhp can i expect ?  I notice for some reson 1,2 polo seem to get 140 150 bhp easily ! 

[FabiaGonzales]

24 minutes ago, D16RRY said:

Thanks for the info ,without decat  what sought of bhp can i expect ?  I notice for some reson 1,2 polo seem to get 140 150 bhp easily ! 

Which engine do they have though, the EA211 initially people thought they were like the EA111's which would top out about 130-140 with everything standard bar a remap. As times progressing tuners see what's working reliably and they can push it that bit further.

 

Being the first with the JBS hybrid, it was kind of an unknown how much the rods can take, mine has proven reliable (mine does not live an easy life) doing 26k miles on the hybrid so far, so future ones they know they can fairly safely start at that point wnd work from there.

 

All it takes though is a bad map and it's bye bye turbo and possibly the engine along with it, so wherever you go, make sure you take it somewhere reputable!

[D16RRY]

ok thanks for the info ,how much bhp are you pushing ? with your hybrid turbo ?  I am wondering if i should just get a good remap  , 140 would actually be fine as alsp drive my partners  Audi A1 with 140bhp and it really fast , its 150kg lighter that my 1.2 Beetle  which would help but i am impressed with it even with 5 people , it  pull very well , I have A audi TT as well so I know what fast is !!!  and I have always said if I had to drive a non sports car  the 1.4 tsi engine i think is the best engine with remap  190 bhp  it would probably be faster than my TT as power to weight ratios  would be better .

[FabiaGonzales]

On 09/10/2020 at 17:24, AMD87 said:

Nope boost is calculated had this argument with the app developers a couple of years back. 

 

On 09/10/2020 at 18:20, Monkey_Dan said:

 

What the hell kind of point is that! What a load of ****e. Do you know how it's calculated?

Had a little read through this thread now i've gained more knowledge about stuff.

 

Boost is calculated, but it's not just guesswork like the calculated torque and power are. It takes the MAP sensor reading, IAT sensor reading, and the Barometric Pressure sensor and External Temperature sensor readings, and calcuates them based on actual calculations to do with air density and stuff. So it's pretty darn accurate.

 

There is actually a "turbo boost: actual" "sensor" reading available but that is rather slow to refresh, where the calculated boost refreshes some 20 times per second. 

 

Calculated HP is based off fuel consumption but is wildly innacurate, aparently my friends 2.0tdi makes its most power at 5500rpm.. lol nah.

 

Calculated torque follows a correct trend, but usually is incorrect by a certain % margin. Not really worth looking at either.

[AMD87]

On 07/08/2021 at 23:14, FabiaGonzales said:

 

Had a little read through this thread now i've gained more knowledge about stuff.

 

Boost is calculated, but it's not just guesswork like the calculated torque and power are. It takes the MAP sensor reading, IAT sensor reading, and the Barometric Pressure sensor and External Temperature sensor readings, and calcuates them based on actual calculations to do with air density and stuff. So it's pretty darn accurate.

 

There is actually a "turbo boost: actual" "sensor" reading available but that is rather slow to refresh, where the calculated boost refreshes some 20 times per second. 

 

Calculated HP is based off fuel consumption but is wildly innacurate, aparently my friends 2.0tdi makes its most power at 5500rpm.. lol nah.

 

Calculated torque follows a correct trend, but usually is incorrect by a certain % margin. Not really worth looking at either.

It's not though as it would never peak more than 22psi when the car is making 34/35psi of boost

[FabiaGonzales]

3 hours ago, AMD87 said:

It's not though as it would never peak more than 22psi when the car is making 34/35psi of boost

That's an issue with the Bosch ECU data reporting, for some reason they used an 8 bit value for MAP (which reads in kPa) so the maximum value it can ever report is 255 kPa or 2.55 BAR absolute pressure. Since roughly 1 BAR of that is atmospheric pressure, you end up with a max reading of 1.55 BAR boost. Which is around 22.6 PSI.

 

The ECU is still able to internally read the actual boost and control it appropriately but it will never be able to report more than 1.55 BAR / 22.6 PSI.

 

So calculated boost is pretty accurate unless you're running past 1.55 BAR boost on a Bosch ECU.

[AMD87]

19 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

That's an issue with the Bosch ECU data reporting, for some reason they used an 8 bit value for MAP (which reads in kPa) so the maximum value it can ever report is 255 kPa or 2.55 BAR absolute pressure. Since roughly 1 BAR of that is atmospheric pressure, you end up with a max reading of 1.55 BAR boost. Which is around 22.6 PSI.

 

The ECU is still able to internally read the actual boost and control it appropriately but it will never be able to report more than 1.55 BAR / 22.6 PSI.

 

So calculated boost is pretty accurate unless you're running past 1.55 BAR boost on a Bosch ECU.

 

no cause I can get the true boost reading from the ecu and map sensor and on the meth trigger kit…….

[FabiaGonzales]

2 hours ago, AMD87 said:

 

no cause I can get the true boost reading from the ecu and map sensor and on the meth trigger kit…….

Calculated boost in most apps use "manifold absolute pressure" sensor, which as i mentioned before can only read up to 2.55 bar (1.55 bar boost). The ECU has different set of sensors that report stuff like "turbo requested boost" and "turbo actual boost" that will read the actual boost and don't have that limit.

[AMD87]

5 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

Calculated boost in most apps use "manifold absolute pressure" sensor, which as i mentioned before can only read up to 2.55 bar (1.55 bar boost). The ECU has different set of sensors that report stuff like "turbo requested boost" and "turbo actual boost" that will read the actual boost and don't have that limit.

so the map sensor that actually reads correctly as stated in the previous reply since its a 4 bar sensor.......

[FabiaGonzales]

The MAP sensor itself and the ecu can read up to whatever the physical sensor supports, but the data feed that the ecu sends out over obd only reads up to 2.55 bar.

[AMD87]

2 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The MAP sensor itself and the ecu can read up to whatever the physical sensor supports, but the data feed that the ecu sends out over obd only reads up to 2.55 bar.

Yet when you plug in a datareader into the OBD it reads more...... Not sure if you're actually reading the posts correctly.......

 

The app developers admitted that it was due to the VE on the app not correctly set up. Reads fine on petrols just not on diesels.

[FabiaGonzales]

The MAP sensor itself and the ecu can read up to whatever the physical sensor supports, but the data feed that the ecu sends out over obd only reads up to 2.55 bar.

[AMD87]

48 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The MAP sensor itself and the ecu can read up to whatever the physical sensor supports, but the data feed that the ecu sends out over obd only reads up to 2.55 bar.

 

and yet here’s me getting 3.5 bar over other OBD programmes bar 1 app……

Edited 10 August, 2021 by AMD87

[fabdavrav]

I really ought to write up all the info I have collected on tuning the EA211 engines since 2014...as I was looking at getting my 1.4lt 140PS mapped from brand new back in 2014.

 

Having read the thread I want to put some correct info:-

 

The EA211 1.4lts are all mapped for 95RON, & will accept 91RON in an emergency...which means the fuelling is NOT ideal for the UK as I've never seen 91RON over here. This is why even a simple stage one 95RON remap (which alters timing) makes such a difference..

 

 

However all the EA211 engines 1.2lts are mapped only for 95RON:-

 

 

Somebody posted up the section from the ERWIM self study guide on the differences between the turbos used on the EA211 engines.

 

Here are some of the other relevant differences:-

 

The 1.4lt 140PS & 150PS have forged crankshafts

 

 

 

[fabdavrav]

I few other items:- (I know different car but the info is relevant as a base.)

 

I see somebody managed to upgrade their brakes form 288mm to 312mm...did you check the piston size stamped on the caliper??...if it said 55 for 55mm then its not ideal as the 312mm discs have a 57mm piston in the same caliper housing...my car was fitted with 288mm discs & 57mm pistons & swapping the caliper carriers & bigger discs was all that was required for a factory fit 312mm conversion:-

How to retro-fit the 312mm front brakes to a Mk7 Golf | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

Also the electronic wastegate actuators for the EA211 engine tend to seize at the actuator rod pivot...just grease it using the correct stuff..no need to buy a new turbo! (this may be important for those who swap to the 140/150PS turbo).

How to fix the turbo wastegate rattle on the Mk7 Golf 1.4lt TSI (140/150PS) | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

Other threads I have done:-

All of golfdave's "How to retro-fit" guides | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

Edited 14 August, 2021 by fabdavrav

[Silmirael]

Hello guys , did anyone try a K&N or BMC drop in filter with the 1.4 turbo swap? Is it worth the money ? 

I tried some stupid custom intake, and actually got +10hp and 20NM in low range, and lost 20hp at high range. The increase in the low rpm is very noticeable and wondered if i can get the same with the K&N.

 

[FabiaGonzales]

2 hours ago, Silmirael said:

Hello guys , did anyone try a K&N or BMC drop in filter with the 1.4 turbo swap? Is it worth the money ? 

I tried some stupid custom intake, and actually got +10hp and 20NM in low range, and lost 20hp at high range. The increase in the low rpm is very noticeable and wondered if i can get the same with the K&N.

 

Small diameter increases the turbulence and the velocity of the air, as the diameter increases it accelerates the air too, which is good for helping the turbo spool quicker and earlier. The diameter however is definitely the limiting factor.

 

The MST elbow tries to help by going as wide as possible right from the turbo inlet. Good for max power, but not great for spool and low end torque.

 

The ECS elbow takes a different approach, slowly dropping the diameter of the pipe from the 65mm at the top, down to about 38mm where it meets the turbo. This helps responsiveness and low down power, which is noticeable vs the MST comparing one after the other. Being a big chunky silicone pipe also means it doesn't fit super well into the space available (its very very jammed in tightly).

 

The disadvantage of this one is that our turbos have an inlet diameter of 41mm (the 1.2 and small 1.4 turbos  by mitsubishi/mhi), so the ecs pipe's 38mm at the turbo end is technically a little restrictive for top end power in that regard, though as i've not got access to a dyno, all i can do is test by top speed reached at the end of a given distance, which was the same between both MST and ECS ones.

 

The fact that it is cast aluminium means it has two other downsides, first being heat soak, aluminium absorbs and conducts heat much better than plastic/silicone, and so radiant heat from the engine does get that elbow quite hot which will negatively impact intake air temps. The second downside being accuracy of manufacturing cast parts, the post-casting machined surfaces (turbo end and top end to airbox) are as you'd expect, perfect, but there's variance and a lot of scope for impurities and other manufacturing irregularities.

 

There's a third less important issue with this and that as it's designed more for the (large 1.4) IHI turbos with inlet diameter of 38mm, they are made with the o-ring on a different face compared to standard. The IHI has a much larger face for this o-ring to seat, but our MHI ones do not, so this ring only partly seals. Given the ring still touches all the way round and the flatness of the surfaces i don't see this as much of an issue anyway.

 

anyway, aside from that, i have a little announcement of sorts..

 

I am in the process of designing and manufacturing a plastic elbow (similar to ecs, but fixing all of its downfalls), to replace the standard one and allow use of the OE airbox and most aftermarket induction kits, and provide a best of both worlds in terms of performance that shouldn't restrict top end power at all.
 

My first prototype is promising but fitment was way off, all angles and dimensions are fixed now and i'm awaiting the second prototype to be made so i can get that on the way.

 

I plan to develop a whole OEM+ intake system, from the elbow, to the airbox, right to the cold air inlet bracket thing that connects to the bumper. It WILL take time though as i have limited experience designing and making stuff like this, and given everything else going on in life i get about 8-10 hours a week to work on it tops.

 

When i have something ready to offer that survives all the testing, abuse, ragging to feck, and everything else i throw at it.. i'll provide more details 🤫😉

[pedro1987]

Carbon fiber forge intake is an extension from the turbo to the oem box and you feel the change.

[FabiaGonzales]

1 minute ago, pedro1987 said:

Carbon fiber forge intake is an extension from the turbo to the oem box and you feel the change.

Sadly the cold air inlet part of it doesn't fit non-MQB platform cars, we have the PQ26 platform and our inlet is different.

 

I am looking to make something better (and cheaper) than the forge intake too.

 

Just wait and see when it's ready to be released