Figures I have seen show the NOX dropping by between half and to one tenth of levels the exhaust gas contains NOX pre treatment.

But they are still several times higher than stated, right?

At what temperatures?

 

I presume you mean at what Ambient ie air temperature?   Whilst ambient air temperature does have effect on the maximum temperature that the has in the cylinder reaches, and the higher the temperature the more NOX is likely to be produced.

 

Turbocharging is so efficient these days that maximum torque is reached often well be low 2k rpm.  Ambient temperature of 0 C does not make a massive difference compared to 15/20C, ie Standard Temperature and Pressure and what they might use in the lab currently to test emissions.  The amount of gas in the cylinder is calculated by Boyles, Charles and the Pressure formula and worked out in degrees Kelvin where 0C is 273K so 15C is almost only 5% difference in the air and the current air pressure ie 1 bar or 1.02 bar or 0.98 will have an affect too.

 

The VW fixes, as well as trying to produce more laminar ie less turbulent air flow across the Air Mass sensor, seems to try and lower the cylinder pressures at this point where the waste gate starts to bleed air. this might be the point where relative too much NOX is being created and the new mapping makes the torque appear at a slightly higher rpm.  Power equals 2 times Pi times revs times torque so VW can say the torque and power is just as much as before but just needs a few more rpms to reach the level and cylinder pressures are lower so less NOX.

 

Some believe that the diesel engine cycle, without SCR, will never be clean enough and therefore needs to be banned as a type of engine.  My own believe is that a very small diesel engine, ie single cylinder and probably less than 500 cc, could be clean enough to not be a concern, it would produce about 35 Kws.  The rest of the power would come from electric and the diesel, or petrol, would change the batteries if they ran low.  Enough to run at motorway speeds and the engine/car would do over 100 mpg quite easily.

 

Operating at below -20C and above 50C are always going to be a problem.  Renault have already been tweaking their road cars to employ their EGR etc at lower temperatures than before.    

Can the mayor deny diesels of a certain age, eg euro5, access to the CBD and would that be unpopular enough to see him off?.

    Wishful thinking I would sadly say. For every person with a diesel car who could be upset there would be many more , especially those with no car at all, who would go along with Khan and pride themselves they are doing the right thing. His  enlargement of the no-go zone  based on the North and South  Circulars do not apply to travelling ON those roads but going beyond into areas of London  (outer ), but which will  rule out most of it. I would only have to drive a mile to transgress Khan's enlargened   area, or face a hefty charge each time, but as far as I am aware , the air in the area around Ealing Common is perfectly acceptable. In fact parents of Chinese friends who came to visit their sons remarked how clean our air is, and they don't live in Beijing or seemingly polluted  places in China. Khan as usual is playing to the gallery ( pre election false fares promise )

But they are still several times higher than stated, right?

 

As you know some Scandinavian reports, and US and others, were showing NOX at up to 10 times or so the 80 ug/Km limits so the SCR does get it close to where it should be and what we are aiming to do is to get the overall NOX in the air lower so if we reduce the NOX from light diesels by a quarter that is a big difference.

 

This would be in conjunction with lots of other NOX reduction measures.  Even petrol cars produce some NOX and VW knows this and is now producing the excellent 1.8 TSI with both direct and indirect fuel injectors as it produces less NOX than only having direct fuel injectors.  Agricultural, Industrial and maritime diesels are increasing using SCRs, as wel as low sulphur fuel, to reduce pollutants.

 

We are getting there but just a bit too slowly for any peoples liking.  Air pollution is generally improving and people will see what the Chinese are doing in this direction and should start to appreciate that implementing air quality improvements and anti-climate change measures actually have significant economic benefits by having less sick and premature deaths, industrial shut downs due to pollution etc.

 

It will be interesting to see where the new RDE actual hit but it is expected car manufacturers will be told what to expect.  Large cities will ban diesel cars which are are too old.  Paris has a 6 band system and London is effectively going the same way. 

 

 

In 2017, the European Union will introduce testing in real-world conditions called Real Driving Emissions, using portable emissions measurement systems in addition to laboratory tests.^[30] The actual limits will use 110% (CF=2.1) "conformity factor" (the difference between the laboratory test and real-world conditions) in 2017, and 50% (CF=1.5) in 2021 for NOx,^[31] conformity factor for particles number P being left for further study. Environment organizations critizised the decision as insufficient,^[32][33] while ACEA mentions it will be extremely difficult for automobile manufacturers to reach such a limit in such short period of time.^[34] In 2015 an ADAC study (ordered by ICCT) of 32 Euro6 cars showed that few complied with on-road emission limits, and LNT/NOx adsorber cars (with about half the market) had the highest emissions.^[35] At the end of this study, ICCT was expecting a 100% conformity factor.^[36]  NEDC Euro6b not to exceed limit of 80 mg/km NOx will then continue to apply for the WLTC Euro6c tests performed on a dyno while WLTC-RDE will be performed in the middle of the traffic with a PEMS attached at the rear of the car. RDE testing is then far more difficult than the dyno tests. RDE not to exceed limits have then been updated to take into account different test conditions such as PEMS weight (305–533 kg in various ICCT testing^[37]), driving in the middle of the traffic, road gradient, etc. ADAC also performed NOx emission tests with a cycle representative of the real driving environment in the laboratory.^[38][39] Among the 69 cars tested:  http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_NOx-control-tech_revised%2009152015.pdf 

• 17 cars emit less than 80 mg/km i-e do not emit more NOx on this more demanding cycle than on the NEDC cycle
• 22 additional cars fall below the 110% conformity factor. In total: 57% of cars have then a good chance to be compatible with WLTC-RDE
• 30 cars fall above the 110% conformity factor and have then to be improved to satisfy the WLTC-RDE test.

Via the BeeB, check out the filth in the time lapse vid

Beijing pollution: Police force to combat toxic smog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-38545649

Who needs mustard gas?.

Edited 8 January, 20179 yr by Ryeman

Citizen Khan's proposal to charge Euro4 vehicles (mostly pre 2005) an extra £10 per day to enter the new expanded zone may well get passed.

Consultations are sought. London will set the standard for other cities.

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-proposes-early-delivery-of-ulez

I agree that SCR systems are not perfect and it will take time as lol-lol says but we are getting there but never fast enough for some people.

Puts it all into perspective looking at Ryemans Beijing video above.

I think the future is probably all electric cars with small range extending engines to charge up the batteries.

If these graphs are correct the number of deaths in the UK due to air pollution must have been really high. The current reports vary between 5900 to 40000 deaths a year?

Nice graphs moley but I'm sure you know its so easy to correlate two things in a graph when the picture is actually much more complex.

Based on the above graph Ken Livingstone must be responsible for more deaths than Boris so lets hang Ken?

Clearly ridiculous as is the recent data on people developing dementia if they live near a main road when there are so many other factors involved.

Everyone uses data to push their own agenda regardless of whether it makes any sense, its all about headline grabbing.

Bad news sells papers, good news is boring.

That said though its clear that we need to reduce the effect of NOx in cities and putting a financial penalty on the more polluting vehicles to steer clear of the city centre may be the simplest approach.

Ponder the implications of this :- http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shirley-rodrigues/air-pollution-london_b_14004980.html

........and a time lapse video

World: London air pollution kills about 10,000 people annually

http://ab.co/2i3O1Dp

Imagine the outcry if it was headline grabbing road deaths pa

It looks to me that sales of diesels in and around the London area will cease, values will plummet and the rest of the country follow suit. When Khan's message and intentions get well known, who would buy a diesel. And who would take one in part-exchange?

There will always be a place for them........

But they should know their place is in the country

There will always be a place for them........

But they should know their place is in the country

In the country may be,but only if there is no intention of going into a large town or city. Even a wind blown city like Southampton has already been talking of banning diesels in the town centre,which ain't very far from the sea. And were we not induced by " the authorities " to go diesel as being better for air quality, so now they should not prejudice us for doing as they once suggested. Not our fault they made a gross error of judgement. They should be the ones to suffer but as I said, diesels must surely be deaded by the motoring public?

If these graphs are correct the number of deaths in the UK due to air pollution must have been really high. The current reports vary between 5900 to 40000 deaths a year?

 

 

 

A few factors are meaning the deaths from bad air pollution is bad even though the air quality has improved somewhat from the nineties and noughties high levels are they are:-

• The UK population is much higher and crammed into cities like London
• The demographic change of the UK population means there are much more vulnerable groups to this pollution ie older people
•  Policy changes take years to take affect if introducing LEZ, ULEZ, and introducing traffic bans.  Diesel cars are the biggest single sector..   

 

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-2/?cid=airquality-consultation

 

Just heard on the abc news that London has the world's worst NOx concentration.......!

It looks to me that sales of diesels in and around the London area will cease, values will plummet and the rest of the country follow suit. When Khan's message and intentions get well known, who would buy a diesel. And who would take one in part-exchange?

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/94714/2016-a-record-year-for-uk-new-car-registrations-but-numbers-predicted

 

"Diesel sales are also starting to slow down, with only 0.6 per cent growth over the year, and now represent less than half of all new car registrations."

Still growing though!

It is the vehicles in the surrounding streets to distances of kilometers not just on the street.  Affected by prevailing winds and can take hours to clear if the wind is light.  It is interesting to see the readings change when Paris bans cars on some days and the air quality improves over the hours to being half as polluted.  As I understand it larger trucks have to have the certified filter to enter the london low Emission Zone which is much of the area within the M25 and much of the trucks run Ad-Blue SCR system as well and have to be no more than 10 years old though all this maters are under review and expected to meet even more demanding regulations which will be bought in by 2020.

 

Now hybrids have to pay the congestion charge as well since July we can expect to see more Leaf, Tesla and the Zoe EVs and EV vans as they become make more economical sense.      

 

Hi Lol-Lol,

 

I know perfectly well how air quality is affected by surrounding streets – I am involved in assessments of it as part of my work.

 

However your answer that this is the cause of excessive levels of pollution on Oxford Street is simply not the case as the adjacent streets are not affected to the same extent, and if that was the cause then they would be.  No – the issue on Oxford Street is simply the pollutants from dirty buses and taxis – those very same vehicles that we are being told are better for air quality and the environment.

 

Paris banning cars and air quality improving is, if you’ll excuse the phrase, a no-brainer…   remove the vast majority of vehicles of whatever type and air quality is bound to improve, so it’s not a valid comparison or answer.  If it were then Oxford Street, which has no cars, would be vastly better than it is in terms of air pollution.

 

Charging for Hybrids is very valid given they generally don’t perform as advertised.  However, we should also be charging electric on the basis of their pollution at source (not at point of use).  They aren’t actually as green as portrayed once manufacturing and energy production at source (often from ‘dirty’ power stations conveniently located outside of major cities) is taken into account – so should be charged accordingly.

A few factors are meaning the deaths from bad air pollution is bad even though the air quality has improved somewhat from the nineties and noughties high levels are they are:-

• The UK population is much higher and crammed into cities like London
• The demographic change of the UK population means there are much more vulnerable groups to this pollution ie older people
•  Policy changes take years to take affect if introducing LEZ, ULEZ, and introducing traffic bans.  Diesel cars are the biggest single sector..   

 

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-2/?cid=airquality-consultation

 

 

Those Pie charts are probably a bit different now three years on but either way should be proportionate to the number of said vehicles on the road - they would show something rather different...

London has been asleep when it comes to all those diesel buses and cabs.

To seem to be not much better than Delhi is somewhat of an indictment on a city which takes pride in it's standing as a leader of advanced economies.

Political leadership (?) appears to be about no more than survival from day to day.

London has been asleep when it comes to all those diesel buses and cabs.

To seem to be not much better than Delhi is somewhat of an indictment on a city which takes pride in it's standing as a leader of advanced economies.

Political leadership (?) appears to be about no more than survival from day to day.

[/q

I know figures can be used to prove anything but to say London's air is as bad as Delhi's strikes me as rather unlikely. I have never experienced bad air in London, central or otherwise apart from I think in 1971 when one evening there was a thick fog, so getting back from Vitoria to SW18 where I was then living proved very interesting, driving that was.

Admins - Following V1 & V2 of this topic and now that people are finally starting to take this issue seriously can we get it pinned. Thanks

London has been asleep when it comes to all those diesel buses and cabs.

To seem to be not much better than Delhi is somewhat of an indictment on a city which takes pride in it's standing as a leader of advanced economies.

Political leadership (?) appears to be about no more than survival from day to day.

 

There are some measures happening, banning cars from some roads and converting them to bus only.  London has a few hydrogen cell buses, some electric ones and are updating their main fleet of diesel buses.

 

Problem is that London is the only super-sized city in Europe (other than Moscow one might argue) and the government appear loathed to take proper action such as using the ban odd or even registrations on some days that some cities do.

 

Just a sad fact.  Companies like my own are doing our bit, changing our fleet of vehicles collecting cargo from Heathrow to electric and rolling out the charging network in London but it is harder in London with 44 boroughs rather than one metropolitan authority as in Paris etc.  

 

Attitudes are changing as less and less people drive so voters are less supporting of drivers and more supportive of air quality, so process but happening gradually. 

London has been asleep when it comes to all those diesel buses and cabs.To seem to be not much better than Delhi is somewhat of an indictment on a city which takes pride in it's standing as a leader of advanced economies.Political leadership (?) appears to be about no more than survival from day to day.[/qI know figures can be used to prove anything but to say London's air is as bad as Delhi's strikes me as rather unlikely. I have never experienced bad air in London, central or otherwise apart from I think in 1971 when one evening there was a thick fog, so getting back from Vitoria to SW18 where I was then living proved very interesting, driving that was.

The families of the annual 10,000 victims might beg to differ though.

Just imagine the outcry if it were from road accidents appearing on the nightly news rather than the untold story currently

The families of the annual 10,000 victims might beg to differ though.

Just imagine the outcry if it were from road accidents appearing on the nightly news rather than the untold story currently

Can you really say that though?

Cant say with any certainty that a family member died specifically because of diesel vehicles in the city. 

Its a cumulative effect involving many other factors.

Can you really say that though?

Cant say with any certainty that a family member died specifically because of diesel vehicles in the city. 

Its a cumulative effect involving many other factors.

Probably premature deaths and maybe not many subjected to a thorough analysis

Cause of death emphysema?