Battery problem again

[automass]

Everytime I go to Europe, something has to happen. This time it was one after another. friday we went Main-Taunus-zentrum from our holiday rental in  Drolshagen and car battery went flat. last sunday night battery went flat for the first time right before the holiday. I had to call the breakdown to jump start. Battery is bought from halfords 1 year and 4 months ago. I had the battery checked up today in halfords and guy said battery is good, probably alternator or starting motor is faulty. how can i diagnose/check it myself?

[RoddersUK]

How did Halfords check it, just put a multi meter on it?

 

When car is running, check 14.5v to confirm alternator is working.

[Gabbo]

How did you charge the battery after it was flat (on Sunday and Friday)?

Just a jump start & then driving or did you charge it with a battery charger?

If you managed to make it back from Germany after just a jump start your alternator should be working fairly well.

 

What are the symptoms you see when you say the battery is flat?

No power at all, too low to start the engine (lights flashing on the dash, "low battery" message etc), cranking but not starting?

[automass]

27 minutes ago, RoddersUK said:

How did Halfords check it, just put a multi meter on it?

 

When car is running, check 14.5v to confirm alternator is working.

it's not multimeter. i think basic battery diagnostic tool. I argued with him that as i was driving the car, the battery is fully charged now and hence it is showing good in your system, but he replied this is basic test and that's what they can do.

Should i use my OBDeleven tool to check 14.5v. if yes then how?

 

17 minutes ago, Gabbo said:

How did you charge the battery after it was flat (on Sunday and Friday)?

Just a jump start & then driving or did you charge it with a battery charger?

If you managed to make it back from Germany after just a jump start your alternator should be working fairly well.

 

What are the symptoms you see when you say the battery is flat?

No power at all, too low to start the engine (lights flashing on the dash, "low battery" message etc), cranking but not starting?

When the car was not starting for the first time in London (Sunday night) everything was working. headlights, interior lights, infoteinment system, car locking/unlocking..basically everything. only thing i saw in the dash was battery power is too low and all the other warning was popping up one by one. Cranking sound but not starting

 

When the car was not starting for the second time in Germany sysmptoms were all the same. Cranking but not starting. as soon as they guy used jumpt starter battery booster, it started straight away.

 

 

[johnkitchen]

With my cynical head on I would say, if the Halfords battery was under warranty it was unlikely to fail the test.

 

I'm sure the main stream tyre fitting companies will test your battery for free, and the output from your alternator.

[Breezy_Pete]

Alternators in recent cars with start/stop will not put out a constant 14.5V, so are no longer easy to test.

An independent test of the battery at a non-Halfords establishment is a good idea.

[Graham Butcher]

Have  you checked to see if the battery terminals are clean and also tight? Also check the ground connection on the chassis. Did you observe where the guy connected his jump set leads, was it directly to the battery terminals or did he connect the ground to the ground point and the positive to the battery? If the latter, it might indicate battery connection of the ground could be suspect.

 

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the battery being faulty, how long is the warranty on it? I had one with a 4-year warranty fail at the 3-year mark, but such events are very rare.

[automass]

nattery terminals are clean and they are securely tight. no doubt about it. they use positive to positive and negative to negative and asked me to start the car. car started within a second. battery came with 5 years warranty halfords brand. I am just guessing can my dashcam drain out all the juice of the battery ? its a AZDOME dashcam. I've been using it for ages without any trouble and it is always connected in 12v port. nowadays, I can see it gets powered off time to time and ofcourse if i leave the car for long it gets off whcih was not the case previously.

[Graham Butcher]

Never a good idea to leave your dashcam connected, it will drain the battery.

[Warrior193]

^^^^ Agree with above - even if the drain of the camera is only milliamps while left plugged in, it appears that this constant, unexpected load prevents other vehicle systems from entering 'sleep mode' when shut down, resulting in a significantly greater drain on the battery, than just from the dash cam.  

[indars]

[automass]

37 minutes ago, indars said:

what's this?

[J.R.]

A proper old school battery tester, it can't be beaten if you know how to use it correctly

 

I still use mine but the scale range was designed when vehicles had far smaller batteries, if you look at the staircase type scale between the yellow Weak and the green OK you will see that each increment relates to a different battery AH capacity range, the needle is nearly as thick as the increments.

 

Inspired by mine I made a similar drop tester for intruder alarm and access control system batteries using  car cigarette lighter and an LED array, its time the Chinese did something similar to the above tester.

[xman]

Check the battery fitted is an EFB or AGM battery, should say on the top.

 

They might have fitted a standard car battery which are not suitable and will have a short service life. (EFB and AGM generally don't have a 5 yr warranty)

 

Plus did Halfords recode the battery management system when the battery was fitted? To reset health parameters,  tell it that a new battery is fitted and what type EFB/AGM it is. I suspect not so the battery management still thinks the old battery (inc type and health data) is fitted.

 

The manual states you must only jump start using the ground tab and not the negative post as you are bypassing the battery current sensor and confusing the battery management.

 

[automass]

2 hours ago, xman said:

Check the battery fitted is an EFB or AGM battery, should say on the top.

 

They might have fitted a standard car battery which are not suitable and will have a short service life. (EFB and AGM generally don't have a 5 yr warranty)

 

Plus did Halfords recode the battery management system when the battery was fitted? To reset health parameters,  tell it that a new battery is fitted and what type EFB/AGM it is. I suspect not so the battery management still thinks the old battery (inc type and health data) is fitted.

 

The manual states you must only jump start using the ground tab and not the negative post as you are bypassing the battery current sensor and confusing the battery management.

 

It's EFB battery and ofcourse coding was done as i was infront of them. It comes with 5yrs warranty. It even says on the top of the battery. I was not sure about jump start. but it worked..

 

[Graham Butcher]

Since the battery was fitted and the coding done, has the car been jump started? 

 

If yes, was it done correctly using the ground point instead of the negative battery terminal? 

 

If yes then that may the cause of your problems as the current sensor has been bypassed and confused the charging regulator meaning the battery could have been overcharged and suffered internal damage. Or it might be under charging and may just need charging and recoded again. 

 

Get the battery tested again by a garage and see how it fares. 

[J.R.]

40 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If yes then that may the cause of your problems as the current sensor has been bypassed and confused the charging regulator meaning the battery could have been overcharged and suffered internal damage. Or it might be under charging and may just need charging and recoded again. 

With all due respect your speculation of the results of jumpstarting directly to the battery is nonsense.

 

Also this does not make sense:

 

44 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

if yes, was it done correctly using the ground point instead of the negative battery terminal? 

 

If yes then that may the cause of your problems

 

I think you meant to say no.

[Graham Butcher]

Lol, correct it should be NO

Edited 29 August, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

With all due respect your speculation of the results of jumpstarting directly to the battery is nonsense.

 

The reason for saying what I said was that if the car has been jump started using the incorrect method that the resultant current flow risks damaging the current sensor/battery monitor attached to the battery negative terminal cable clamp. This could then result in the battery charging management system not having the correct info being received from the monitor and can do one of the two things I originally mentioned. So it could overcharge and damage the battery plates internally, or it may be undercharging. 

jump start.pdf

Edited 29 August, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[automass]

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Since the battery was fitted and the coding done, has the car been jump started? 

 

If yes, was it done correctly using the ground point instead of the negative battery terminal? 

 

If yes then that may the cause of your problems as the current sensor has been bypassed and confused the charging regulator meaning the battery could have been overcharged and suffered internal damage. Or it might be under charging and may just need charging and recoded again. 

 

Get the battery tested again by a garage and see how it fares. 

 

I can't really recall how the car was started once battery was replaced..but I don't think they used jump start (i would have remembered if it was the case) and also they should know (at least better than me) how to start the car with new battery. I am pretty sure battery had some juice and car started in normal manner. I am looking into to get the battery tested in further extent. but first I am taking my dash cam off and connect it home with power to see if it works as long as the power is connected. It could be the case that my dash cam is the culprit, but again why did it not do it before. this is not the first time I am keping dash cam connected. it was always up and running in the car.

[Graham Butcher]

40 minutes ago, automass said:

 

I can't really recall how the car was started once battery was replaced..but I don't think they used jump start (i would have remembered if it was the case) and also they should know (at least better than me) how to start the car with new battery. I am pretty sure battery had some juice and car started in normal manner. I am looking into to get the battery tested in further extent. but first I am taking my dash cam off and connect it home with power to see if it works as long as the power is connected. It could be the case that my dash cam is the culprit, but again why did it not do it before. this is not the first time I am keping dash cam connected. it was always up and running in the car.

Dash cams are normally connected in one of 2 ways, the first is via a power lead that is plugged into either a USB socket or 12V power socket, some call them cigarette lighter socket. The other is directly wired to the cars supply via a circuit that is only active when the ignition is switched on.

 

The power lead method is not a given that when the ignition is off, the supply to the socket is off. In lots of cars the USB or 12v socket is always live so if that the case with your car, and you don't pull the plug out of the socket, then that is still connected and drawing power, and will drain your battery down enough to prevent the car starting, especially if the car does move for a few days. It might well only drawing a few milliamps, but they all add up of time.

 

Normally there is an indicator on the dashcam to show that it is active, a LED should be glowing when powered up.

 

So the question is do you always unplug the dashcam and judging by what you have already said that is NO, so I suggest that you do so with immediate effect and see how the car behaves after a few days driving.

 

EDIT:

I just looked back your other posts, and you mentioned that the camera was an Azdome one and so I have looked on their website and for a dashcam to be left on 24/7 which is what they call 24 Hour Parking Monitor it will require an external power supply and copy here an extract from their web page.

 

24-Hour Parking Monitor

24-Hours Parking Monitor only works on an external power source. If someone hits your car and impact reaches the G-Sensor Level, then the camera will turn on and record it.

Note: 24-Hours Parking Monitor requires AZDOME 3-lead Micro USB Hardwire Kit(not included in the packaging). Hardwire kit need buy extra, search ASIN: B0BGHQN5RP

 

Edited 29 August, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The reason for saying what I said was that if the car has been jump started using the incorrect method that the resultant current flow risks damaging the current sensor/battery monitor attached to the battery negative terminal cable clamp. This could then result in the battery charging management system not having the correct info being received from the monitor and can do one of the two things I originally mentioned. So it could overcharge and damage the battery plates internally, or it may be undercharging. 

 

Sorry but that is pure fantasy and may cause unnecessary alarm to the OP or other readers.

 

The current flow through the shunt resistor when jump starting would be no different to that when cranking from a healthy battery.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

6 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Sorry but that is pure fantasy and may cause unnecessary alarm to the OP or other readers.

 

The current flow through the shunt resistor when jump starting would be no different to that when cranking from a healthy battery.

 

 

That is from my Skoda service agent. There is a plug that connects to the negative battery terminal but on my old car that was impossible to extract for some reason that disconnects the sensor.

 

Anyway, I think we may have discovered that their dashcam has been left plugged in 24/7 and discharged their battery. Awaiting their reply.

Edited 29 August, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

If you are attributing :

 

"if the car has been jump started using the incorrect method that the resultant current flow risks damaging the current sensor/battery monitor attached to the battery negative terminal cable clamp. This could then result in the battery charging management system not having the correct info being received from the monitor and can do one of the two things I originally mentioned. So it could overcharge and damage the battery plates internally, or it may be undercharging."

 

as the words of your Skoda service agent then they are talking nonsense and you are repeating nonsense, if you understood where the simple shunt resistor lives (its in parallel with the negative cable from the battery to that stud) and its purpose you would have known they were talking nonsense.

 

I would not have needed to hear the words, just seen their lips moving 😄

[Graham Butcher]

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

If you are attributing :

 

"if the car has been jump started using the incorrect method that the resultant current flow risks damaging the current sensor/battery monitor attached to the battery negative terminal cable clamp. This could then result in the battery charging management system not having the correct info being received from the monitor and can do one of the two things I originally mentioned. So it could overcharge and damage the battery plates internally, or it may be undercharging."

 

as the words of your Skoda service agent then they are talking nonsense and you are repeating nonsense, if you understood where the simple shunt resistor lives (its in parallel with the negative cable from the battery to that stud) and its purpose you would have known they were talking nonsense.

 

I would not have needed to hear the words, just seen their lips moving 😄

Either way, @Breezy_Pete and myself have advised them to get the battery checked by another garage for peace of mind, but currently the dash cam is chief suspect as it appears to be plugged into the 12v power socket which seems to be always live and OP is checking that and will report later.

Edited 29 August, 2023 by Graham Butcher