Battery problem again

[xman]

I think your problem is you went to Halfords.

[automass]

Do i need to correct the coding or I should leave it as it is.

[PetrolDave]

Just now, automass said:

Do i need to correct the coding or I should leave it as it is.

Correct it, so the BMS knows what new battery the muppets at Halfrauds have fitted.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Dont be so b****y condescending, 30 years ago I was designing and manufacturing vehicle electronics and then moved on to access control systems, even my little knowledge in dangerous hands does not need a lecture on ohms law which I learned as a 16 year old apprentice.

 

The "short circuit" that you describe would blow the fuse except in the overactive imagination scenario where someone has removed the OE wiring and powered the accessory circuit directly from the battery. A wire glowing is overloaded conductors  carrying too high a current not a short circuit, the groundsheet of my tent has a gaffer tape repair where I used a 12V tyre compressor to inflate an airbed instead of a blower with a similar result, heat not fire.

 

Retired Electrical Engineer, - I thought you said you were a bus mechanic? I note that according to your graphs for fuses 10 times the rating of the one in question that "a long time" or even "infinity" is anything over 1 second.

 

You can have the last word if you wish but please keep it non condescending and hopefully of help to the OP, I repeat my advice to him to his request to "sort this problem immediately" is to disconnect the shunt resistor in the battery negative (or is it the positive?) lead to revert to a standard charging profile without any of the other nonsense.

 

 

Just maybe you need to read and understand what I've written. I've never said that I was a bus mechanic, I said I did my apprenticeship at the local bus depot. I was employed as an auto electrician but as there was no specific formal training for auto electricians I had to go and do at local colleges 8 years of electrical engineering and also learning to be a trainer. Furthermore, I could have become an electrical engineering consultant with the qualifications I gained during those 8 years.

 

I never said "short circuit" anyway, and as I said for the record, the wire in my own car was glowing red-hot and smoke was coming from it, and it burnt the leather on the car seat BUT it did not blow the fuse protecting the circuit. The voltage on the power lead was 5V as it was powering a mobile phone, just as the dashcam also only requires 5V. Very few plugin items these days actually work on 12V, if they did then the chances of the protective fuse actually blowing are far greater, but with a converter in the circuit, as far as the fuse is concerned, it is still operating within its design parameters. The converters should be better designed to shut down the output circuit if there is excessive current flowing in the output or secondary circuit, but they don't and even if they did have such protection, electronics themselves are also known to fail as well.

 

But for the sake of explanation, if the equipment being plugged into the socket is a mobile phone, or a dash cam that uses as its means of connection to the phone/dashcam/portable satnav/ tablet etc then yes the wires in that cable are very small (good luck trying to get normal car wiring cable sizes terminated into such mini, micro or even type "C" plugs) and add a lot of resistance into the circuit when heavy currents are flowing through that cable. That resistance is going to restrict the overall current flowing and as the wire gets hotter, that resistance gets higher. The cable will and does get red-hot and glows like the element of an old style electric fire. The glowing wire is perfectly capable of starting a fire inside the car.

 

Oh, as for the fuse being 10 times the rating of the one in question, I think you will discover, the rating of the fuse for 12v power outlets is going to be around 20A if you look at the fusebox its normally printed or embossed on it somewhere, hence why I used 20A as the example.

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, automass said:

Guys, we are going out of the topic. Please we are here just to help each other.. don't take everything personal..

 

Anyways, i came to halfords and the guy inspected the battery  again and found the battery is ok as usual..Finally, he checked his system and said it was not the right battery..so he replaced it with a smaller one which has only 65ah even size is smaller than original one. Battery sleeve doesn't even doesn't fit.

I am not very happy about it..but they said they have go to by according to their system..

 

N.B: i checked the coding and that is not right, but i saw the guy used obd tool to do coding..so it's confusing now.

 

 

You say you saw him doing coding, did he actually code or did he just plug it in and check something out? If he coded something, did he remember to tell the tool to "do it" or "save it" and then more importantly, did he then switch off and switch on again and check the coding was correct? I still have no faith that simply swapping the battery for what he claims is the "right one" is going to cure your issues with the battery going flat. You have other underlying problems with your electrics, and it desperately needs an expert to thoroughly go through the system and find the real problem.

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[automass]

I didn't see his screen..but definitely he connected the machine and therefore something already changed in Battery adaptation..like manufacturer name and also serial number.

 

What makes you think that i have electrical fault in my car. Can the battery be not faulty!

[automass]

I noticed something different with my new battery..i have been driving for 3hrs in the city and had my obdeleven connected, but didn't see battery is charging which would not be the case with my old battery.old battery was alwats having cargi g sign in it .does it mean the old battery was really faulty?

Edited 2 September, 2023 by automass

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, automass said:

I didn't see his screen..but definitely he connected the machine and therefore something already changed in Battery adaptation..like manufacturer name and also serial number.

 

What makes you think that i have electrical fault in my car. Can the battery be not faulty!

Because of all the varying reports/updates you keep posting saying this or that is or was happening and the way that you say the OBD11 is performing or not etc, the battery has been tested a few times and they claim it is OK, nothing seems to be constant. Well that's completely, in almost of screenshot of your OBD11 it shows that you have 1 faulty control units, which control unit is it that it keeps reporting?

 

It seems highly unlikely that the battery is faulty, a battery with a 5-year warranty is not likely to popping its clogs after 1 year and 4 months, so I think you can almost certainly rule that out of the equation. I also think that having a bigger battery is not going to cause you problems. If the battery they fitted was too small, then yes, that could possibly cause you some problems, especially if there was something that was still taking power when the ignition was off and the car was just sitting there overnight etc.

 

Now one thing that you have not made clear, but I take it as being true (as maybe do others) is that this started happening over a year ago and the car was left for sometimes while you were maybe on holiday, you came back to find the battery was flat? Then Halford's fitted the current battery, and then the history repeated itself, and you again came back from a holiday to find a flat battery, is that correct?

[Warrior193]

Yes, it is possible that the old battery had a fault that was triggering the alternator in an attempt to charge it - but keep an eye (and monitor battery condition) because the alternator should start charging at some point. If it doesn't, it suggests that there is another fault in the charging system.

[Graham Butcher]

You should without a doubt input the correct info regarding the battery, the important 2 bits of information you need to worry about are the AH rating, is it now 65, 69 or 75AH? And the serial number, the maker's name is not important at all.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, automass said:

I noticed something different with my new battery..i have been driving for 3hrs in the city and had my obdeleven connected, but didn't see battery is charging which would not be the case with my old battery.old battery was alwats having cargi g sign in it .does it mean the old battery was really faulty?

No it does not mean the alternator is faulty, battery is being charged on car a with healthy electrical system but it will always charge at higher rate just after starting the car to replace the energy you just took from it to start the car with. Once it has replaced that power it will drop to just a few milliamps in order to keep the battery fully charged and as you switch on more things like lights, radio, wipers etc then the battery get a higher amount charge rate to compensate for increased demand from the battery. 

[Warrior193]

Of course the elephant in the room is the smart charging system - the system will attempt to recover energy by using regenerative charging as a default, you may not see the alternator kicking in in some circumstances unless you are recording battery state over a reasonable period.

 

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Warrior193
delete double post

[ords]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

No it does not mean the alternator is faulty, battery is being charged on car a with healthy electrical system but it will always charge at higher rate just after starting the car to replace the energy you just took from it to start the car with. Once it has replaced that power it will drop to just a few milliamps in order to keep the battery fully charged and as you switch on more things like lights, radio, wipers etc then the battery get a higher amount charge rate to compensate for increased demand from the battery. 

Not according to the guy at Halfords who told the OP it would only start charging after a 1 or 2 hour long drive. How can you trust a company or their employees who spout such BS.

[Graham Butcher]

6 minutes ago, ords said:

Not according to the guy at Halfords who told the OP it would only start charging after a 1 or 2 hour long drive. How can you trust a company or their employees who spout such BS.

Where does the OP say that piece of information, all any of us can do is to work with the information that either the OP posts freely or in reply to various questions we ask and their reply. Also, they posted a photo of the battery tester showing it as being good.

 

[automass]

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Because of all the varying reports/updates you keep posting saying this or that is or was happening and the way that you say the OBD11 is performing or not etc, the battery has been tested a few times and they claim it is OK, nothing seems to be constant. Well that's completely, in almost of screenshot of your OBD11 it shows that you have 1 faulty control units, which control unit is it that it keeps reporting?

 

It seems highly unlikely that the battery is faulty, a battery with a 5-year warranty is not likely to popping its clogs after 1 year and 4 months, so I think you can almost certainly rule that out of the equation. I also think that having a bigger battery is not going to cause you problems. If the battery they fitted was too small, then yes, that could possibly cause you some problems, especially if there was something that was still taking power when the ignition was off and the car was just sitting there overnight etc.

 

Now one thing that you have not made clear, but I take it as being true (as maybe do others) is that this started happening over a year ago and the car was left for sometimes while you were maybe on holiday, you came back to find the battery was flat? Then Halford's fitted the current battery, and then the history repeated itself, and you again came back from a holiday to find a flat battery, is that correct?

There is no electrical problem in the car that I have ever encountered. OBDeleven had authentication issue which they asked for the code few weeks ago..OBDeleven started working on the same day. it had authentication problem. So, they suggested me to uninstall and reinstall the app and restart the phone. and started working.

 

Last year on April i drove to Netherlands...and we went to a a shop to buy some groceries in there. as we came out of the shop, car wasn't starting. I had to jump start with the I had in my boot from some stranger's car. Well, that was with the original battery and I replaced it as soon as we got back to London. This time we went to Germany and before going to Germany battery started playing. but this time battery is fairly new.

the fault i have is something different, I mentioned in this thread already. this is 'Data  bus front light'. when i had my rear coil springs replaced months ago, local garage guy accidently snapped the sensor for the headlight leveling. so LED Module Left (D6) and LED Module Right (D7) accidently being activated during some coding (which can not be deleted). I have a thread about it. I'll be happy if you can help me how to disable this two modules.

 

I am guessing the previous battery was faulty. It is hard to believe for me as well.

I am ended up getting new weaker battery 65ah (Halfords EFB013), Original (which came with car was 69ah). the one I bought on the first place was 75ah (Halfords EFB096). I can not be very happy tbh. when I negotiated with halfords guys, they said if I wanted they could replace the battery with similsar size (75ah) but they will not take any responsiblities if it goes wrong again. As their system said, 65ah is the right battery for me so, I have to go for that one. I checked halfords website and they were right it recommended battery is Halfords EFB013.

I found a website where i can buy YBX YUASA battery just for £115.

 

N.B: Dashcam doesn't work. stat stop doesn't allow the dash cam working.  everytime car kick starts from stop the dash cam goes shuto down. It was working previously. I googled and found if parking mode is activated then it will behave like that, so disabled parking mode but no luck. I am guessing it is problem with dash cam. I updated the firmware as well and tried with different power cable in the car but no luck.

 

5 hours ago, Warrior193 said:

Yes, it is possible that the old battery had a fault that was triggering the alternator in an attempt to charge it - but keep an eye (and monitor battery condition) because the alternator should start charging at some point. If it doesn't, it suggests that there is another fault in the charging system.

 

Yes, battery is charging, I can see.

Edited 2 September, 2023 by automass

[J.R.]

On 31/08/2023 at 16:16, Graham Butcher said:

be very careful with it if the cable is broken, and it creates a short circuit than it is a major fire hazard

 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I never said "short circuit" anyway,

 

[xman]

10 minutes ago, automass said:

the fault i have is something different, I mentioned in this thread already. this is 'Data  bus front light'. when i had my rear coil springs replaced months ago, local garage guy accidently snapped the sensor for the headlight leveling. so LED Module Left (D6) and LED Module Right (D7) accidently being activated during some coding (which can not be deleted). I have a thread about it. I'll be happy if you can help me how to disable this two modules.

 

If you have altered coding in another Module then that may be your problem. Modules not shutting down when the ignition is turned off.

 

Its time for you to measure the current drawn from the battery when everything is turned off.

 

[J.R.]

Agreed.

 

Automass. To disable modules you need to first be sure that what you are doing is not going to have unintended consequences, then if you want to go ahead you delete the module from the "Installation list" or it could be "Installed modules" list, I believe that it is found within the programming of the Canbus Gateway.

 

You might then get fault codes where these now alien modules are trying to contact the mother ship, if this happens (like it did with my Bluetoooth module) then you need to disconnect them.

[automass]

48 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Agreed.

 

Automass. To disable modules you need to first be sure that what you are doing is not going to have unintended consequences, then if you want to go ahead you delete the module from the "Installation list" or it could be "Installed modules" list, I believe that it is found within the programming of the Canbus Gateway.

 

You might then get fault codes where these now alien modules are trying to contact the mother ship, if this happens (like it did with my Bluetoooth module) then you need to disconnect them.

I wouldn't know how to do this. Well, the guy who did coding for the headlight levelling sensor, he said these false error is not related to anything. So don't worry about them. But for me i really don't wanna see them jf possible.

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

 

 

Well, I thought you were simply referring to the post that you clicked on the "quote" tab, in which I never actually mentioned a short circuit. That was in another post to the OP a day before so confusion resolved.

 

I still dispute that would blow the cars fuse as the 5v supply is derived from an electronic power supply consisting in basic terms of a primary 12v side connected to the car's fuse and a secondary side 5V connected to in the case of the OP, a dash cam and in my case when my car did nearly catch fire, a mobile phone. As the fault was/would be seen on the 5v portion then the 5v part of the electronics would happily continue pumping out 5V at whatever current it could muster until the electronic components in the 5v section expired as the fault current that would be seen in the 5v section would not be seen to the same magnitude on the 12v side. So using the Ohms Law, lets for the sake of discussion say that the dash cam normally takes 130mA, so thats 0.13A @ 5V = .13 x 5 = 0.65 watts on the output side and assume the whole process is 100% efficient, which it won't be, that equates .65wats / 12v =0.054A being consumed from the 12v battery and assuming the fuse is rated at 5A it is therefore going to take a lot more for that fuse to blow.

 

Now lets assume that the 5v side suddenly sees an overload of 50 times its normal current flow due to a short circuit close to the mini USB socket on the dashcam, that means that the cable is now carrying a current of 6.5A and using ohms law, Volts times current = watts. So that's 5v x 6.5A = 32.5Watts. So 32.5 watts at 12 v = 32.5 divided by 12 = 2.708A, still way within the 5A rating of the fuse, so the fuse would still not blow.

 

Now if we factor in the losses because no conversion process is 100% efficient, so let's say that it is only 30% efficient, and we look at the those calculations again, we get the following:-

The healthy circuit's 5v side remains the same so that's 5V, .13A and .65watts and the 12v side equates to 12v, .65/.7 =.928Watts and the current then becomes .928Watts / 12v = 0.077A

 

Under the 30% efficiency but with 50 times factor of increased current on the 5v side, the 5v side is as before 5v x 6.5A = 32.5Watts, but the 12v side now has to have the losses added to it the 32.5W  becomes 46.428watts and the current is 46.428/12=3.869Amps and still within the 5A rating of the fuse so still not going to blow. 

 

Now if we could put a fuse in the 5v circuit, inside the plug along with the 12v to 5v convertor and rate the fuse at 2A then yes that fuse would blow and protect the circuit from a fire risk. Some of those 12v power plugs do have a lower fuse in the centre spring-loaded contact which is on the 12v side, but the cheaper ones don't and by the OPs own admission, the dashcam is only a cheap one, so probably does not so is therefore completely at the mercy of the cars fuse, of which I am pretty sure is a 20A rated one to handle a air compressor being plugged to inflate the tyres will have a pretty big surge current when the motor starts up.

 

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[ords]

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Where does the OP say that piece of information, all any of us can do is to work with the information that either the OP posts freely or in reply to various questions we ask and their reply. Also, they posted a photo of the battery tester showing it as being good.

 

He said it on Wednesday @ 17.27. It's the last sentence of the last paragraph.

[Graham Butcher]

6 hours ago, ords said:

He said it on Wednesday @ 17.27. It's the last sentence of the last paragraph.

Oops, my bad I missed the last sentence, I was so focussed on the dashcam cutting out when I the car but not on the indoor power. 😭

Edited 3 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[classic]

This isn’t over yet.
An assumption was made by automass back in April 2022 that he needed a new battery and a new battery was fitted.

A crank no start problem reoccurred this year and, via the timeline of this thread, he now has another new (albeit slightly different) battery fitted. He has also disconnected the dash cam, at least overnight.

His obd thing has recorded an intermittent misfire cyl 3, and something about databus front light.
Xman has advised him to measure the current draw with everything switched off. That is definitely the first thing to do to rule out something draining the battery (you need to do this test automass), possibly caused as Xman suggests by interfering with the coding of the light module.

My prediction is the starting problem will reoccur and automass will eventually do that check and find there isn’t anything draining the battery.

Edited 3 September, 2023 by classic

[automass]

13 hours ago, xman said:

 

If you have altered coding in another Module then that may be your problem. Modules not shutting down when the ignition is turned off.

 

Its time for you to measure the current drawn from the battery when everything is turned off.

 

 

How to test the battery myself! Can I use OBDEleven to do that? As an example put the car in access mode and turn everythng off. then keep an eye on the battery volt

[Graham Butcher]

 

Because this problem has a habit of reoccurring and the reported apparent OBD11 intermittent misfiring issues and not being authorised warnings etc, I think there are other underlying issues and because there are so many control modules in the modern car that depended on the correct functioning and communication between them using the cars network, that I seriously recommend booking the car in for proper checking and diagnoses / repair.

 

This video may help to understand the complexity and will also extra equipment that the experts have, which will leave the OBD11 behind in the dirt.  

You can also get bad scan tools and the ones in this video is way more powerful that a OBD11 can be.

After market parts also are not equal to the OEM parts and can cause further problems 

Curing a misfire.

Fake parts causing error codes

6 garages and 1 year later the problem is still there.