Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[Sad555]

If you went into a car showroom to buy or test drive a car that had the specification you required and met your expectations,you buy it but if if the salesman whispers in your ear that the emissions given in writing are a load of b***** and are actually say producing something far in excess of which is safe and a legal requirement but the company has found a fantastic way to hide it under scrutiny you then have a decision to make for yourself,but we know that is not the case as both the dealers and customers we not informed,but to now find I may be an owner of one of these products that could also now become a financial liability to me I do feel let's say disappointed and misled/ miss sold a product .so yes I think some sort o recompense is needed.

[fabdavrav]

If you went into a car showroom to buy or test drive a car that had the specification you required and met your expectations,you buy it but if if the salesman whispers in your ear that the emissions given in writing are a load of b***** and are actually say producing something far in excess of which is safe and a legal requirement but the company has found a fantastic way to hide it under scrutiny you then have a decision to make for yourself,but we know that is not the case as both the dealers and customers we not informed,but to now find I may be an owner of one of these products that could also now become a financial liability to me I do feel let's say disappointed and misled/ miss sold a product .so yes I think some sort o recompense is needed.

 

Do you do that when you don't get the quoted MPG from your car? because if you do don't bother buying a car as the quoted MGP figures are way out & well known fact!, & I've never heard of people being recompensed for that!

[TsvRS]

There are four ways to pass a test:

1.) Legitimately meet the performance standard in principle and practice. Honorable.

2.) See the performance standard as flawed yet accept it in principle and meet it in practice e.g., comply at the exact rev/minute specified but not necessarily at any other engine speed. Practical.

3.) Not accept the performance standard by any means in principle yet meet it in practice e.g., complying only at the exact rev/minute specified but certainly not at any other engine speed. Cynical.

4.) Introduce subterfuge to ignore the performance standard in practice and principle. Fraudulent.

 

If other manufacturers have gone down paths 2.) and/or 3.) then it will be embarrassing for them. Path 4.) is jail-time.

[Huskoda]

If other manufacturers have gone down paths 2.) and/or 3.) then it will be embarrassing for them. Path 4.) is jail-time.

If only. Currently Winterkorn is set to walk away with a €60m settlement. I don't really care if he did/didn't know. What was going on is certainly big enough that he should have known.

 

Crime doesn't pay. Unless it's on a huge scale. Then it really pays.

[Breezy_Pete]

Light relief item:

Because the 'dyno/cheat-the-test mode' seems to be simply detected by the front wheels turning while the rears aren't, 'good emissions' mode* will be invoked during 'burn outs', won't it?

 

 

* may not completely offset the tyre-burning emissions...

 

 

Edit: Actually, joking aside, does this 'feature' mean that cars with this engine/software combo underperform on dynos, in terms of power output???  Nah, can't be that simple.

[Chriswright03]

This is the problem with statistics; on the other hand historical (London during the 50s and 60s), AND contemporary data (Beijing over the last few years), show spikes in breathing difficulty admissions to hospitals, and deaths in the very young/very old/people with lung issues when NOx levels are very high, compared to when the pollution levels are lower (ie - blown away and dispersed by the wind)

 

The top two NOx producers are diesel engines and coal burning; so look to China, and Beijing in particular, to see how bad it can get; the city is not only filled with very dirty diesel engined lorries, but is surrounded by power stations burning low grade (highly sulphurous) coal. The newspapers may come up with OTT names for it, but it is still so bad that the Chinese government had to shut down 90% of the cities heavy industry to clear the air enough for the Olympics, and regularly tries to block the US Embassy website - which publishes a pollution index for the city every day.

 

Individually, diesel cars arent big polluters compared with diesel lorries and bus's, but add up the total and it does make a big difference. While living in China, in a modern city filled with the latest model western cars, and LPG converted bus's, you could see the pollution cloud come down during the morning and evening rush hours - visibility would drop from 10 miles to 1/2 a mile.

 

Whilst you make some good points Ian and your knowledge of China will be a little better than mine as I have never been I think the point is missed a little.  What I am saying is that statistics may well show one thing or another but, how can we trust them?  Statistically it is being quoted that the diesel engine is responsible for increased levels of gases of whatever sort.  OK that may be so but how do we know those figures haven't been massaged?

 

Is China and Bejing's problems entirely down to one thing or is there a combination.  From my understanding the problems of smoking and secondary smoking are a big issue so is that part of the problem with all those diagnosed with lung problems?

 

Point being that we are given statistics by various groups who would want us to accept them without question.  Why?  Further to that why are some folk in this thread so determined to accept these statistics at face value and point the finger of blame at the diesel engine? 

 

OK VW and without doubt others will be guilty as charged but putting that right isn't going to alter the way us and our goods are transported on a daily basis.  No matter what the problems are one of the biggest problems will be finding a grain of believable truth from anyone officially involved in any of it be them Corporate or Government. 

 

If we are to believe everything we are told I will just go out and buy the Daily Mail and lock myself in the house.  Oh hang on I can't because without a diesel engine my paper and groceries won't be delivered!  Just have to stay in and look trough my back copies of Sceptical Weekly!

[lol-lol]

If you read that PDF on the testing for the future "real road test" Don't think your Dacia with a Renault engine is fine.......................

 

infact it could be one of the worst....................

 

 

 

Highly, highly unlikely as it is such as small capacity engine that reaches optimum plus quite a new design.  Doubt very much they even sell it and therefore would test it in the States.  

Took ages to convince the US buyers to change from ther V5 2.5 ltre naturally aspirated engines to the TSIs, a few took the leap from V5/V6 to TDIs but as we know only 3% went to diesels in the US t is here in Europe where we are 53% diesel and much higher population density is proportionally the bigger issue.   Ford Ecoboost is also a great engne and made in Bridgend !

[Rustynuts]

There we are then. Renault is given a clean bill of health for its engine because someone with some qualifications thinks it's highly unlikely that the engine in question has misleading emissions data.

[looby]

:sun:  :sun:  :sun:

 

[lol-lol]

There we are then. Renault is given a clean bill of health for its engine because someone with some qualifications thinks it's highly unlikely that the engine in question has misleading emissions data.

One of 7 major brands Renault have not recently sold in the US so all a bit weird. You might get a few personal imports but minute numbers. Could be a Nissan-Samsung-Renault maybe but cannot remember ever seeing one in the States.

7 Car Brands You Won’t See in the U.S.A. Anytime Soon

The U.S. auto industry is the second-largest in the world, having been bypassed by China in 2009. China’s ascendancy came as the U.S. market tanked, but its recovery is in progress and promises to be a good one. Car manufacturers the world over prize both markets, desiring the U.S. because of its high profit margins and China for its volume. Not all brands are present in both markets and we can think of several makes that aren’t likely to make an appearance in the U.S. anytime soon.

1. Renault — Big in Europe and in the Americas from Mexico on south, Renault is no stranger to the U.S. market. The French automaker partnered with American Motors Corporation in 1980 and assumed controlling interest of AMC in 1983. Throughout much of the 1980s, Renault and AMC models were sold across the US until Renault sold AMC to Chrysler in 1987. Renault’s presence in the U.S. market ended in 1992 when its rebadged Eagle Premier model was dropped by Chrysler. Today, Renault and Nissan are in a strategic alliance with the latter likely keeping the former from ever showing up stateside again.

Sold in the U.K., the Renault Clio is not destined for the states.

2. Peugeot — Like Renault, French automaker Peugeot also sold its cars in the United States, beginning distribution in 1958. Its models, however, were less than inspiring and the market for Peugeot cars never thrived. By 1991, Peugeot exited both the U.S. and Canadian markets, although it has since reestablished a presence in Mexico. Don’t expect to see the latest Peugeot models on U.S. highways within the next few years despite its all-new alliance with General Motors. China is a more practical expansion point for this automaker with GM, perhaps, nixing any possible plans for U.S. distribution.

3. Skoda — The Volkswagen Group is bent on leading the world in car manufacturing and its Skoda subsidiary will be doing its part to contribute a significant sales boost. The Czech automaker was largely unknown outside of eastern Europe until VW came calling and buying in 2000. Skoda products share platforms and parts with Volkswagen products, but one model could find its way to the U.S. However, Volkswagen is much more interested in promoting its eponymous brand than launching Skoda stateside, thus any Skoda product sold here will likely carry VW badging.

This Skoda MissionL is a Chinese-bound model.

4. SsangYong — It looks difficult to pronounce, but a Korean friend of mine says that the double “S” in SsangYong is treated as a hard S. No matter, this once bankrupt automaker was rescued by India’sMahindra & Mahindra, a company with its own designs on the U.S. market. Those designs have been thwarted in a legal tie-up with its one-time U.S. distributor and could take years to untangle the mess. SsangYong may prove to be the avenue by which Mahindra makes its official U.S. debut, but we don’t see that happening within five years, if at all.

5. Samsung — Korea’s big electronics company began building cars in 1998, just before the Korean economy tanked. Two years later Renault bought a controlling stake in the automaker, increasing it to 80.1 percent where it is today. Samsung cars are rebadged Nissans, the latter a strategic partner of Renault.Nissan Motors is on a quest to increase its market share in the U.S., with an eye of overtaking Honda as the second-largest Japanese automaker in America. Allowing Samsung badged models would only undercut its U.S. efforts, thus the only Samsung you’ll ever see is the one you watch, make calls on or use to wash and dry your clothes.

Renault Samsung SM5.

6. Holden — Okay, trick submission. Holden cars have recently made an appearance in the United States with its Monaro coupe sold as the Pontiac GTO and its Commodore as the Pontiac G8. When Pontiac died, Holden’s presence in the U.S. went with it, but only for a little while. Today, the Chevrolet Caprice is sold as a pursuit vehicle to law enforcement agencies only. That car is the Holden Commodore-Pontiac G8 and is one model that may eventually be sold to retail customers. As far as Holden getting a hold in the U.S. market, we that think brand-happy GM has learned its lesson. At least we hope that it has!

7. Tata — We’ve known for years that Tata Motors has been planning to sell its uber-cheap Nano in the United States. A European-spec model, the likely precursor of the U.S.-spec model, has been built. However, it still hasn’t been sold. Tata has been exporting its cars to other emerging markets and it seems likely it will continue to find markets where competition is thin in the ultra-low-cost entry-level market. As for a U.S. model of any kind, Tata may be content with managing its Jaguar and LandRover brands, highly profitable lines for this Indian car company.

The U.S.-spec Tata Nano is not ready for prime time.

[Ootohere]

So i see the Media reporting (Guardian online)  not only Light Trucks involved but 1.2 litre engines.

 

It will be interesting to say the least as more comes out once they carve up the divisions of the Volkswagen Group in the boardroom.

Still trying to spin and come out of it all as well as they can.

[lol-lol]

So i see the Media reporting (Guardian online)  not only Light Trucks involved but 1.2 litre engines.

 

It will be interesting to say the least as more comes out once they carve up the divisions of the Volkswagen Group in the boardroom.

Still trying to spin and come out of it all as well as they can.

TSI or wiesel?

[pgamble]

You know ... much like other high profile problems that have gone legal (mostly driven by the US) ... BP for example .. I feel very sorry for the hundreds of thousands of supply chain (inc dealers, engineers, admin etc across the VW group). What should happen here is VW should be forced to make people good, interviews and digital forensics should be used to understand who knew and did what and those people should be disciplined both internally and legally.

 

After that, VW which must be full of very proud and hardworking staff, should be allowed to recover and move forward. In the US ... a threat of $18b for 500000 cars. That's $36k for every car. They could replace ever car for less than that .. That is just certifiable and wouldn't happen if it was a US company and we can be sure that most manufacturers of diesel cars will be doing something similar. If we're talking about induced ill health from chemical release ... Bhopal springs to mind. At today's currency equivalent ... they were fined circa $1b with 1/2m injuries and possibly 10s of 1000s killed ... rather bigger impact and rather less of a penalty than the $18b here or $47b+ for BP.

 

I have a 2013 Superb with an engine that will probably be affected and I will expect some sort of compensation to make me good, but the trend these days is to so massively attack the whole company after decisions and behaviour of a limited subset of senior employees that thousands lose their job, families are hurt, adjacent supply chain impact then affects 100s of 1000s of others ... and to what end ...

 

Will we be better off without VW Group ? The Superb is one of the best family cars I've ever had (previous ones were CR-V, S-Max) .. and looking at the wider VW family ... I really don't think we want them damaged beyond repair.

 

What's happened is very disappointing. I believe the impact for most owners will end up being minimal - govt bodies will ensure that .. but spare a thought for the 99.99% of the VW Group and supply chain that have been working really hard to give the market what they want. They don't deserve all this because of some as yet unidentified (at least publicly) bad guys.

[Ootohere]

lol-lol,

Never said but then that is SKY just reporting the 2.8 Million in Germany effected.  

(not affected >snip< vxh26 >snip<)

 

It will all come out in the wash, 

and no worry anyway, or even more no wucckin furries to those that do not have a Volkswagen car,

or even a car, van, lorry etc.

[lol-lol]

The US have found a diesel that can past the emissions test. When it said Taurus I thought it meant the Ford but NO....

 

The Official Home of the Royal Enfield in the United States

 

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/blog/2011/11/royal-enfield-diesel-bikes/

 

 

Taurus Diesel
The Royal Enfield Taurus Diesel was a motorcycle made in India for just a few years around 2000, by the venerable Royal Enfield company, builders of the legendary Bullet 350 and 500 singles. It was not a commercial success, but during its manufacture and since its demise has attained a sort of cult status among us strange people interested in even stranger motorcycles.   The story I heard was that the Taurus was built in response to a cottage industry in India. Evidently the countryside is littered with small diesel engines used for irrigation purposes. Some clever garage mechanics realized the motors were about the same size and shape as the Bullet engine, and started grafting these diesels into the Bullet frames. After enough of these hermaphrodite home-builts appeared on the road, the factory figured they were missing out on a good thing and started producing Taurus Diesels ready-to-ride from the factory. I have no idea if this story is truth or fiction!  The Taurus was offered with a 325cc and also a larger displacement model, I think around 450cc. I acquired my 2001 Taurus 325 brand new, through devious and murky channels which shall remain nameless, since these bikes were never DOT approved, USA homologated, or EPA approved for use in these United States. It’s a wonderful novelty to own and ride. I’ve taken it to track events, rallies, and other gatherings where it always draws a big crowd.  The major advantage to this bike is its fuel economy. They claim about 175 miles to a gallon of diesel. My own experience has not been quite that good, but I still get over 100 easily.  The downside, well, everything else is pretty much downside about these critters, beginning with the performance. The motorcycle weighs in about the same as the other Royal Enfield bikes, nearly 400 lbs wet. The gasoline powered Bullet 500 of the day boasted a scorching 22 horsepower, while the Bullet 350 had only 18hp. The Taurus, by comparison, puts out a truly underwhelming 6.5 hp!.   Rated top speed is only 50mph, but you have to be going down a very long, very steep hill to get near that. You can’t even cruise at 40. Normal cruising speed is about 25-35pmh, with acceleration in the die–of-old-age-before-you-reach-your-target-speed range. Use of top gear (4th) is rarely possible and hill climbing ability is nearly non existent. Commuting on this bike is a challenge to say the least. In fairness I should note that all my experience with the Taurus has been at 7000 feet altitude where bikes and people as well are huffing and puffing due to the thin air. But still.  When I’ve told people that a good 50cc scooter is faster than the Taurus, they laugh as if I’m trying to be funny, but it’s the gospel truth. A good running 50 like the Kymco People 50 will blow the doors off the Taurus in every way, from acceleration off the line to cruising to top speed. It’s all about power to weight ratios. The 50 has nearly as much horsepower with half the weight. You do the math.  (Ed. YOU DO THE MATHS - now where have I heard that before).

[vxh26]

<SNIP>

Still trying to spin and come out of it all as well as they can.

 

Maybe you should move on from Vorsprung durch Technik to Schluss Mit Lugen

[Ootohere]

Maybe just move on, or have you bought anything that the Volkswagen Group have built yet?

[Rustynuts]

I have a 2013 Superb with an engine that will probably be affected and I will expect some sort of compensation to make me good,

 

Can I ask a question? Compensation for what exactly? As you (and currently pretty much everyone else on the planet who owns a car or doesn't) have no idea what you're going to be out of pocket for against the probability of how much less worse off you'd have been had you bought a BMW 5 series (and just wait til BMW have to explain why their cars have software installed to defeat emissions at test as and when it comes to light), then laying out a claim for compensation at the moment is somewhat previous, don't you think?

 

As things stand at the moment, your car may or may not have software installed in the ECU which could make it pass an emissions test which it never needs. It's a little like saying "There's a light in the boot which could possibly be programmed to come on every time my car goes to the garage for a legally required test to check my tyres are correctly inflated. I want compensation from the manufacturers who designed it, or the dealer who mis sold me the car.".

[fabdavrav]

Highly, highly unlikely as it is such as small capacity engine that reaches optimum plus quite a new design.  Doubt very much they even sell it and therefore would test it in the States.  

 

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the press.................

 

Basically the UK & EU are looking into testing every diesel car which is currently sold as a "new model" let alone how far back, so NOT limited to USA only stuff.................

 

...mk6 golf is likely to get caught up in it as it has a 2lt diesel engine & within the "dates", but the car is no longer sold "new"........

 

they might also include all new petrol's also, but this is less certain

[lol-lol]

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the press.................

 

Basically the UK & EU are looking into testing every diesel car which is currently sold as a "new model" let alone how far back, so NOT limited to USA only stuff.................

 

...mk6 golf is likely to get caught up in it as it has a 2lt diesel engine & within the "dates", but the car is no longer sold "new"........

 

they might also include all new petrol's also, but this is less certain

 

I thought the thread was about US cars, perhaps we need another thread for EU ones.  German Transport Minister confirms....

 

http://www.ft.com/fastft/397611/2.8m-vehicles-germany-affected-vw-scandal

German transport minister Alexander Dobrindt confirmed to the Bundestag that authorities suspected the manipulation of emissions data in vehicles with 2.0 and 1.6litre engines, reports Jeevan Vasagar in Berlin.

"This is around 2.8m vehicles in Germany," he said.

These two classes of engine had been identified on Thursday. But the minister added that there are indications that emissions were also manipulated in 1.2litre diesel vehicles

 

 

In for a cent, in for a Euro.

[Ootohere]

'Looking into testing every car' or is that versions and models of every car, and some at random.

 

Cars are already tested annually in the EU after what ever age,

and some like Taxis can be checked more often than annually, so the testing if they do test Every Vehicle can be when Testing is due to be done anyway, but tested differently.

They certainly do not intend to 'Test Drive on the Road and measure emissions' of every car ever sold.

[langers2k]

 

German minister: VW manipulated tests in Europe too

Germany’s transport minister, Alexander Dobrindt, has confirmed that Volkswagen vehicles containing software to evade emissions testing were sold across Europe, not just in the US.

He told reporters in Berlin that:

 

“VW told us that in Europe too, vehicles with 1.6 and 2 litre diesel engines are affected by the manipulation.”

 

 

It also depends what that statement actually means, on face value it could easily mean that EU cars contain the same software as US cars and therefore the EPA cheat. Alternatively it could mean there is a second cheat designed to trick EU regs.

 

If it's the former, then it's really not a big issue as I suspect the tests are different enough that it won't trigger. If it's the latter then it becomes interesting.

[fabdavrav]

 

I thought the thread was about US cars, perhaps we need another thread for EU ones.  German Transport Minister confirms....

 

 

 

Well the "USA only news" snowballed into now the possibility of all other car manufactures for cars sold in UK & EU..............& it will no doubt get even bigger & complex.........................

 

 

'Looking into testing every car' or is that versions and models of every car, and some at random.

 

Cars are already tested annually in the EU after what ever age,

and some like Taxis can be checked more often than annually, so the testing if they do test Every Vehicle can be when Testing is due to be done anyway, but tested differently.

They certainly do not intend to 'Test Drive on the Road and measure emissions' of every car ever sold.

 

Yes but the main concern is not the MOT or other versions...............it is the initial test that the government/EURO5 or EURO6 testing which is done to rate the CO2 etc stuff for taxation etc......................this might have been cheated by the software also which is why they are saying brands like Skoda which is not in the USA will get caught up in this...............

[Ootohere]

I know what they are saying.

So let us see the actual cost of testing 'every car' to see if they match what is on the V5.

or if there is a bit of 'lost in translation' and Media Reporting,

and Every EU  Model Type Approval is checked, and representative vehicles of that type.

 

Can we remember that Germany the economy is in no better state than the UK is or 

other EU Countries.

Lets see just what the Financial state of the Volkswagen Group actually is, 

and Volkswagen Finance.

Lots of Public Money will be behind the Lease Cars out there in the World and the Finance and Pyramid Selling Type Finance can bring down Banks & Financial Institutions.

 

Pension Funds & Investors money from many many workers around the world including car workers will be funding the Multi Million Pay Offs of those behind this and other fraudulent schemes going on.

[Aspman]

And the end result will be.....

 

Honestly I think everyone that bought an affected car (from any caught brand) will get a service voucher for £50. Used cars will be worth less, new cars will stay the same price since they'll be 'fixed', untill they're sold then they're worth less because of reputation. Either way the customer pays.

 

There will be some paper shuffling of big money at the board level to governments. Or VAG will go technically bankrupt so it doesn't need to pay out anything.

 

High Heid yins will leave on big retirement packages or go to other companies whatever happens

 

Sales will dip, some dealers will close, most wont.

 

VAG will be sold or broken up and sold

 

Diesel will be demonised for a few years until everyone moves to petrol again then petrol will be demonised, then electric - rinse and repeat...

 

The world will move onto the next problem, Kim Kardashian's arse affecting the tides or suchlike.

Edited 25 September, 2015 by Aspman