1.5 SEL first gear issue.

[hirez]

On 18/12/2018 at 00:20, VAGCF said:

 

.....seriously damaged the oft held view of German engineering excellence. Maybe this still applies to other industries, but not cars.

The impression I get is it is a general trend. German engineers today ride the wave of engineering excellence from the past. 

[eribaMotters]

I think you are very observant and very polite. I own another German engineered product, an Eriba caravan produced by parent group Hymer. They are also living on past reputation turning out poor quality caravans at a high purchase cost.

 

Colin

[VAGCF]

I used to be an architectural technician and all my drawing equipment was German and very good quality. That was a good few years ago though, as is nearly all CAD now, but I do use them for one of my winter hobbies of model boat building.

Edited 19 December, 2018 by VAGCF

[hirez]

1 hour ago, eribaMotters said:

I think you are very observant and very polite. I own another German engineered product, an Eriba caravan produced by parent group Hymer. They are also living on past reputation turning out poor quality caravans at a high purchase cost.

 

Colin

I question the latter as honesty is rarely see as such...
;)

[VAGCF]

You'll have to explain that one to me!

[hirez]

30 minutes ago, VAGCF said:

You'll have to explain that one to me!

lost in translation....

honesty ist rarely synonymous with politeness.

 

I do try to do both, but rarely succeed

 

So not to stray too far off topic:  I have not experienced so much the first gear issue with my 1.5 manual, but I wonder if anybody has the gear ratios for this combo.  I find that first gear is barely useful. And I read somewhere (manual I think) that you should travel no more than 1.5 - 2 car length in first. I think first gear in this car is something to learn all over again, as most of the time I get it ok, but sometimes it lurches and I assume it is mostly my lazy foot.

 

[Doogle69]

11 hours ago, hirez said:

I question the latter as honesty is rarely see as such...

I worked for a German company that was #1 for quality 25 years ago but today customers only buy on price, not the quality or service provided so the result is they get neither. 

Unfortunately its the same in so many industries. 

[TheRealExile]

Had my 'independent' vehicle inspection yesterday by a company appointed by Lex, the mechanic came out and drove the vehicle for 2 hours on b roads.

 

He returned to report I was correct and it does indeed kangaroo down the road whether hot or cold and it wasn't great around town.

 

On receipt of the report today from a German owned large company called Dekra they confirm the judder characteristic  and state it's not a safety issue and the vehicle is of satisfactory quality!  Not happy, they have literally just repeated the official Skoda line word for word, clearly don't want to upset a partner of theirs  looks like I'm stuck with it until Skoda decide to fix the issue.... if it can be of course!!

 

Inspection
The car was found parked on the driveway ready for the road test, the vehicle's fuel level was seen to be at the maximum.
The engineer checked all under bonnet fluid levels and found them to be correct. The engine had not been started today which
allowed the engineer to check the vehicle from cold.
The vehicle started first time without any issues to report.
A full road test was then carried out which included urban and open roads with speeds up to national limits.
After starting from cold and throughout the road test, the engine was found to judder at times when setting off in 1st gear and at times
when accelerating in 2nd and 3rd gears. The judder is not seen as significant, but it is noticeable with lighter acceleration.
The engineer did not cover the 100 miles, but did drive the vehicle for a 2hr period. This is due to the road and traffic conditions as no
motorways roads were used. This obviously resulted in the average mph to be much lower than any motorway speeds.
The vehicle was returned to the owner after the fuel level was topped up to the maximum.
End of checks

 

Conclusion: In the engineer’s opinion, being based on evidence written, reported and observed during this assessment of the above defects, the following can be concluded: The subject vehicle has been road tested over different road conditions and along with different speeds. It can be confirmed that the reported judders from cold and with light acceleration when the engine has warmed is evident. This condition is seen as a characteristic rather than the cause of any defect within the engine. The engineer cannot state that the previous repairs to replace the clutch was the result of the described judder when driving. As the condition is described as a characteristic rather than any specific defect, the vehicle is seen to be safe and of a satisfactory quality. This is with the proviso that a dealer has carried out all relevant checks and updates for the model.

 

Sad but it's the last VAG group vehicle I will ever buy/lease. 

 

 

 

[Sieski]

4 minutes ago, TheRealExile said:

Had my 'independent' vehicle inspection yesterday by a company appointed by Lex, the mechanic came out and drove the vehicle for 2 hours on b roads.

 

He returned to report I was correct and it does indeed kangaroo down the road whether hot or cold and it wasn't great around town.

 

On receipt of the report today from a German owned large company called Dekra they confirm the judder characteristic  and state it's not a safety issue and the vehicle is of satisfactory quality!  Not happy, they have literally just repeated the official Skoda line word for word, clearly don't want to upset a partner of theirs  looks like I'm stuck with it until Skoda decide to fix the issue.... if it can be of course!!

 

Inspection
The car was found parked on the driveway ready for the road test, the vehicle's fuel level was seen to be at the maximum.
The engineer checked all under bonnet fluid levels and found them to be correct. The engine had not been started today which
allowed the engineer to check the vehicle from cold.
The vehicle started first time without any issues to report.
A full road test was then carried out which included urban and open roads with speeds up to national limits.
After starting from cold and throughout the road test, the engine was found to judder at times when setting off in 1st gear and at times
when accelerating in 2nd and 3rd gears. The judder is not seen as significant, but it is noticeable with lighter acceleration.
The engineer did not cover the 100 miles, but did drive the vehicle for a 2hr period. This is due to the road and traffic conditions as no
motorways roads were used. This obviously resulted in the average mph to be much lower than any motorway speeds.
The vehicle was returned to the owner after the fuel level was topped up to the maximum.
End of checks

 

Conclusion: In the engineer’s opinion, being based on evidence written, reported and observed during this assessment of the above defects, the following can be concluded: The subject vehicle has been road tested over different road conditions and along with different speeds. It can be confirmed that the reported judders from cold and with light acceleration when the engine has warmed is evident. This condition is seen as a characteristic rather than the cause of any defect within the engine. The engineer cannot state that the previous repairs to replace the clutch was the result of the described judder when driving. As the condition is described as a characteristic rather than any specific defect, the vehicle is seen to be safe and of a satisfactory quality. This is with the proviso that a dealer has carried out all relevant checks and updates for the model.

 

Sad but it's the last VAG group vehicle I will ever buy/lease. 

 

Oh no that's complete Bull#$%! 

A new car should not be doing this! My car stalled again yesterday pulling out of a busy junction on a slight hill. The car (driver) coming down the hill towards me wasn't best pleased neither was the lady behind me.  I say stalled bit it was more like a huge flat spot of power

 

 

[Ootohere]

They as in VW in the end will have to do what Fiat had to do & accept that with some Fiat 500's  they ****-ed up engine management / software.   

Difference is that VW will do as always and blame the software company they buy from, maybe not Bosch this time as Bosch have taken the blame often enough...

The cars will be put on rolling roads and roads with the data taken and as usual 'their honesty' will be shown to be absent.

 

 

 

Edited 20 December, 2018 by Skoffski

[Xtra2]

We are In process of swapping our car for completely different car make - non VAG one. We would be otherwise stuck with a car that we could not sell. We were told today that the kangarooing is a "characteristic" rather than a fault. We will never ever in a million years buy another VAG car ever again! Apparently, if VAG doesn't get more than 5% of complaints they won't bother doing anything. And also, the software fix that they are preparing is going to be more of an "enhancement " and it cannot be guaranteed that it will fix what we are all complaining about. 

[Sad555]

Basically the worlds biggest cheat/manufacturer cannot produce a car in the 21st century that pulls away in first gear smoothly without having  to use words like characteristics, driver issues,any thing apart from the basic truth yet people/customer still accept all the lies they are being told,if I hadn’t been lied to about my yeti I would have probably bought the karrot as my next car but thank you Skoda for letting me see you in your true colours and that’s £25000 + of business you have lost from me,and the troubles it would have incurred to me ,thanks again and good bye.

[VAGCF]

Pity that it was VWG that enabled Skoda to become one of the best manufacturers with some very nice cars but it is now VWG that are dragging them down.

It was that association, after many VW's and Audis, that lead me to buy a Yeti.

 

I have pretty much decided now that the Yeti replacement won't be coming from the VWG stable, which from the dealers' point of view is a shame as I have on the whole been happy with their service and what few problems I have had have been resolved without argument, which is one of the main reasons I've kept buying. Sadly with the problems with the 1.5 TSI, which was to be my choice, and my perception that dealing with problems will never be as good as it was (in my case anyway) I don't feel I want to take the risk of staying with them, certainly at the moment anyway. 

[xman]

14 hours ago, Xtra2 said:

And also, the software fix that they are preparing is going to be more of an "enhancement " and it cannot be guaranteed that it will fix what we are all complaining about. 

 

Its looking more and more like a fundamental design flaw with the 1.5tsi engine that can't be fixed easily/cheaply.

 

Such as the positioning of the electronic throttle body/intercooler I referred to earlier. Completely different to the trouble free 1.4tsi.

 

Would explain the major delay in producing a software fix (quoted as not until at least Q2 2019). I have every confidence that any software fix will be nothing more than a best kludge that does not fix the problem but tries to disguise it as a different "characteristic”

 

I expect a new 1.5tsi engine to be released into production around Q3. Same part nos but different suffixes. Different intake arrangement. No publicity box ticked.

 

 

[R1200R]

17 hours ago, Xtra2 said:

 We would be otherwise stuck with a car that we could not sell. We were told today that the kangarooing is a "characteristic" rather than a fault. 

 

 

Couldn't agree more, I just wonder what another dealer would think if I offered my months old car. This is my major concern. When the time comes and everybody knows about the fault who would want to buy it. Even your faithful and honest Skoda dealer will not want it.

I know I bought without testing but it was a new car with rave reviews. Who buys a used car without driving it ?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

 

Its looking more and more like a fundamental design flaw with the 1.5tsi engine that can't be fixed easily/cheaply.

 

Such as the positioning of the electronic throttle body/intercooler I referred to earlier. Completely different to the trouble free 1.4tsi.

 

Would explain the major delay in producing a software fix (quoted as not until at least Q2 2019). I have every confidence that any software fix will be nothing more than a best kludge that does not fix the problem but tries to disguise it as a different "characteristic”

 

I expect a new 1.5tsi engine to be released into production around Q3. Same part nos but different suffixes. Different intake arrangement. No publicity box ticked.

 

 

 

I can go along with this theory but it doesn't account for those who say they don't have the fault and the forum member who didn't have the fault until he had an update installed.

I agree it is not just software, it seems that it is not an easy if fixable fix. I mean you can easily reprogram the engine management.

[Ootohere]

^^^^ Can they 'reprogram the engine management' and then do the 'retesting to get the C02 g/km figures that the car had under EU testing which is now the 'old and not fit for purpose tests', 

& what would the Models Pre WLTP or post WLTP Type Approved then show with the 'reprogrammed engine management'.

 

VW and 'dodgy tweaks'  not German Authority approved are a thing of the past, and the UK Government do random testing of Imported VW Group Vehicles. 

Reason being they were caught cheating..

Maybe Chris Grayling MP or the DVLA / DfT can have 'fixed' 1.5 TSI tested after the 2nd Quarter 2019.

 

If Autocar / What car / Haymarket Media Group grew some they might have the 'Vehicle Emissions testing Company' they have shares in and that Ex Employees are running do some testing,  and then they could run some articles on the VW Group 1.5 TSI engines with issues.

Edited 22 December, 2018 by Skoffski

[xman]

it doesn't account for those who say they don't have the fault and the forum member who didn't have the fault until he had an update installed.

 

Automatics can disguise lots of marginal issues, remember that DSG petrols also get a DMF whereas manuals have an SMF.

Reviewers dont potter around, they like to floor the pedal, in specially prepared test vehicles though the Telegraph reporter did say he almost got wiped out by a Scania on a roundabout when his Karoq decided to hesitate.

 

Then there is driving patterns and varying tolerance of such "characteristics". 

 

Finally, tolerances....all engineering is subject to tolerances, sometimes makes little difference, sometimes make things unacceptable.

 

The software update addressed the excessive overrevving when manoeuvring or pulling away, which was IMO an early attempt to plug the slow rev hesitation issues.

Edited 22 December, 2018 by xman

[eribaMotters]

This must be fixable. I've trawled the Audi forum as I have this engine on order in an A3 and cannot find a posting/thread that identifies the same problem. 

I did talk to one salesman who said the 1.5tsi was on it's second engine development with Audi and had been renamed as a 35tsi as opposed to the first generation 1.5tsi. The differences between the two engines was significant, although he did not elaborate.

 

Colin

[xman]

28 minutes ago, eribaMotters said:

 

I did talk to one salesman who said the 1.5tsi was on it's second engine development with Audi and had been renamed as a 35tsi as opposed to the first generation 1.5tsi. The differences between the two engines was significant, although he did not elaborate.

 

Colin

 

There you go then.

 

But I doubt 1st gen owners will get replacement engines or upgrades.

 

Edit: 35tsi is an Audi model designation and not an engine model. Been around over a year as well. So maybe fake news about a 2nd gen 1.5tsi from an Audi dealer.

 

This time round, unusually, Skoda have been the early adopter guinea pigs for the 1.5tsi, IIRC

Edited 22 December, 2018 by xman

[xman]

17 minutes ago, Skoffski said:

^^^^ Can they 'reprogram the engine management' and then do the 'retesting to get the C02 g/km figures that the car had under EU testing which is now the 'old and not fit for purpose tests', 

& what would the Models Pre WLTP or post WLTP Type Approved then show with the 'reprogrammed engine management'.

 

VW and 'dodgy tweaks'  not German Authority approved are a thing of the past, and the UK Government do random testing of Imported VW Group Vehicles. 

Reason being they were caught cheating..

Maybe Chris Grayling MP or the DVLA / DfT can have 'fixed' 1.5 TSI tested after the 2nd Quarter 2019.

 

IMO this hesitation issue or delay in fixing is nothing to do with WLTP testing. The test bays are now emptying and will shortly be available without waiting in a queue.

 

VAG can and have changed emission figures during model lives several times and WLTP encourages this as any change to trim has to be considered.

[Ootohere]

Nothing to do with WLTP in anyway.  Just a usual VW Group C0-ck up. 

 

But to do with VW Group getting results for Testing at some point, and 'a fix' might mean more 'testing of the Co2 after 'a fix'. 

 

Every car / vehicle was not tested, just examples of models.  By Trim, standard fit and options.

As with the old tests. except they were cars without options, but that had cover 3,000 km before testing.  

 

In the UK as Vehicles entered the UK Testing has been getting dome for the UK Government and VW paid 1.1 million towards that.

 

That has nothing to do with the crap vehicles that some have been landed with, 

just an excuse some dealers used for cars 'Lost in transit;   'They were taken for testing'.    Some were, not the ones they claimed were though.

Edited 22 December, 2018 by Skoffski

[xman]

5 minutes ago, Skoffski said:

Nothing to do with WLTP in anyway.  Just a usual VW Group C0-ck up. 

 

But to do with VW Group getting results for Testing at some point, and 'a fix' might mean more 'testing of the Co2 after 'a fix'. 

 

But I doubt it will take them 6 months to remap and retest

[Ootohere]

It has already taken over 6 months.  So any doubt is misplaced i would say.

Look back to the first mentions on Social Media of the issue.

 

This thread was started in March 2018 so if nothing done other than gum bumping by March / April 2019 VW are taking the proverbial.

Edited 22 December, 2018 by Skoffski

[DC79]

1 hour ago, xman said:

 

There you go then.

 

But I doubt 1st gen owners will get replacement engines or upgrades.

 

Edit: 35tsi is an Audi model designation and not an engine model. Been around over a year as well. So maybe fake news about a 2nd gen 1.5tsi from an Audi dealer.

 

This time round, unusually, Skoda have been the early adopter guinea pigs for the 1.5tsi, IIRC

VW used it first before Skoda got it - see the Golf 1.5 TSI EVO. The VW T-ROC forums all have the same 1.5 TSI complaints as the Karok has here.

[DC79]

19 hours ago, Xtra2 said:

We are In process of swapping our car for completely different car make - non VAG one. We would be otherwise stuck with a car that we could not sell. We were told today that the kangarooing is a "characteristic" rather than a fault. We will never ever in a million years buy another VAG car ever again! Apparently, if VAG doesn't get more than 5% of complaints they won't bother doing anything. And also, the software fix that they are preparing is going to be more of an "enhancement " and it cannot be guaranteed that it will fix what we are all complaining about. 

Yeah, I’m also concerned about being stuck with a car I cannot sell especially as VW/Skoda are refusing to allow this design flaw (sorry, characteristic) as a reason for rejecting the car for a refund. Seriously thinking of paying off the finance early just so I save a bit on the interest and end up losing less money overall.