32 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The pistons should be fine as is, the rods definitely need upgrading.

 

The last thing being youll need an upgrade to the hpfp for more than about 190bhp

Are there any hpfp upgrades recommended? 

Reading the entire thread on here. I have just a few questions. 

 

DKU / rtmg say that 200/220 is achieved with them on there hybrid turbo upgrade with supportimh mods like intake,exhaust, downpipe etc. 

 

Jbs have just about developed this 1.2/1.4 hybrid turbo which sounds good for longevity. 

 

Who would you go to or use? 

Just now, Oneshotlpm said:

Reading the entire thread on here. I have just a few questions. 

 

DKU / rtmg say that 200/220 is achieved with them on there hybrid turbo upgrade with supportimh mods like intake,exhaust, downpipe etc. 

 

Jbs have just about developed this 1.2/1.4 hybrid turbo which sounds good for longevity. 

 

Who would you go to or use? 

I would go for the JBS one, it's designed for this engine and it's proven to work very well with it. The turbo itself is capable of far more than the 181bhp it made on mine with standard exhaust. It can probably push 220-230 ish, but youll need extensive work doing to reach that.

The JBS hybrid is absolutely insane, it comes in around 1900rpm and holds that torque through till 5000rpm (where the exhaust restricts it), that's a very strong very flat very wide powerband for a 1.2! Lag is noticeable and at first it might take a little while to get used to controlling it (half throttle is still capable of breaking traction in 2nd if it's a bit damp out).

 

The RTMG is unproven on the 1.2 engine, it's "designed" for the 1.4 engine and i would say it should stay that way, JBS told me of someone with one that was really struggling to make any boost because the turbo's way oversized that the 1.2 engine just doesnt make enough exhaust gasses to get it to spool up very well.

 

The rough limits of the main components are as follows;

 

Exhaust: 180bhp

HPFP: 190bhp

Conrods: 205ft/lb (~210bhp)

 

Even with everything standard it's at the torque limit of the rods until 5000rpm, so the exhaust and hpfp upgrades will only improve the top end from 5000rpm up. To increase torque anywhere else you need to be looking at rods.

 

Conrods would allow you to push more torque (and as such, more power) across the entire rpm range, you'll be limited part by turbo and part by cam/head/valves by that point, if youre doing conrods you may aswell go ahead with cam, head, and valve mods which would get you more torque and as such more power from the same boost across the entire rpm range again but will only help if you're really pushing it to the limits, and that kind of stuff may potentially affect day to day drivability.

7 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

I would go for the JBS one, it's designed for this engine and it's proven to work very well with it. The turbo itself is capable of far more than the 181bhp it made on mine with standard exhaust. It can probably push 220-230 ish, but youll need extensive work doing to reach that.

The JBS hybrid is absolutely insane, it comes in around 1900rpm and holds that torque through till 5000rpm (where the exhaust restricts it), that's a very strong very flat very wide powerband for a 1.2! Lag is noticeable and at first it might take a little while to get used to controlling it (half throttle is still capable of breaking traction in 2nd if it's a bit damp out).

 

The RTMG is unproven on the 1.2 engine, it's "designed" for the 1.4 engine and i would say it should stay that way, JBS told me of someone with one that was really struggling to make any boost because the turbo's way oversized that the 1.2 engine just doesnt make enough exhaust gasses to get it to spool up very well.

 

The rough limits of the main components are as follows;

 

Exhaust: 180bhp

HPFP: 190bhp

Conrods: 205ft/lb (~210bhp)

 

Even with everything standard it's at the torque limit of the rods until 5000rpm, so the exhaust and hpfp upgrades will only improve the top end from 5000rpm up. To increase torque anywhere else you need to be looking at rods.

 

Conrods would allow you to push more torque (and as such, more power) across the entire rpm range, you'll be limited part by turbo and part by cam/head/valves by that point, if youre doing conrods you may aswell go ahead with cam, head, and valve mods which would get you more torque and as such more power from the same boost across the entire rpm range again but will only help if you're really pushing it to the limits, and that kind of stuff may potentially affect day to day drivability.

 

Thanks for the reply and information. It's great what these little engines can produce! I have the rtmg carbon cold intake, now that is pure artwork much better than the mst one. 

12 hours ago, Oneshotlpm said:

 

Thanks for the reply and information. It's great what these little engines can produce! I have the rtmg carbon cold intake, now that is pure artwork much better than the mst one. 

Have you got a link to the rtmg intake?

1 hour ago, R44YVY said:

Have you got a link to the rtmg intake?

It's online mate just Google it. It's very very expensive but worth it 

Just now, Oneshotlpm said:

It's online mate just Google it. It's very very expensive but worth it 

Yeah I found it thanks mate 

1 hour ago, R44YVY said:

Yeah I found it thanks mate 

I don't believe it will fit the fabia mate

I have been looking to get my 1.4 turbo mapped in. Jbs have said they will not do it because of the issues people have had. They quoted a little over 2k for the hybrid turbo fully fitted. Where have other people got there's done?

7 hours ago, cm9876 said:

I have been looking to get my 1.4 turbo mapped in. Jbs have said they will not do it because of the issues people have had. They quoted a little over 2k for the hybrid turbo fully fitted. Where have other people got there's done?

 

Personally I wouldn't use the 1.4 turbo on a 1.2 just causes so many issues. 

 

Has anyone managed to run a downpipe/sports cat on an 1.2 tsi? 

 

Looking online they just don't exist 

20 hours ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I don't believe it will fit the fabia mate

Cheers pal, was wondering how it was going to fit with the shape of it.

16 hours ago, Oneshotlpm said:

 

Personally I wouldn't use the 1.4 turbo on a 1.2 just causes so many issues. 

 

Has anyone managed to run a downpipe/sports cat on an 1.2 tsi? 

 

Looking online they just don't exist 

well, i have a 1.4 turbo (a smaller one because i didn't know the codes back then) and i have fitted it with a custom downpipe (63mm) custom cold intake and a custom stage making 156hp and 287nm, but its pretty loud with a downpipe (a have a mid silencer and a final one pretty big ones actually) 

On 10/02/2021 at 22:51, FabiaGonzales said:

Big Update

 

So, my car went on holiday with JBS Auto Designs starting on monday, and i'm off to pick it back up again on friday..

 

The 1.4 turbo will generally make about 160-170bhp when done properly, basically it'll make the same torque as stage 1, about 230nm ish, but it'll hold that till redline where the 1.2 turbo would drop off. The casings and the likes just aren't designed for the 1.2tsi and it doesn't play well

It's like having a small nozzle on a vacuum vs a large one, the large one flows better but it's far harder to control without accidentally sucking up the tablecloth, the smaller one is much easier to control but obviously it doesn't flow as well.

You can try eek more out of it but that ends up making it surge, then it'll hit boost cut or stall from backpressure, and you end up with what we had before, a wavey graph that looked like it should make good power but wouldn't play ball without pulling it back to around 160bhp.

 

However, that's not what my car went on holiday for, nope, it's had the hybrid treatment, the in-development JBSL12 hybrid turbo, i'm the first to get it done, and it's rather exciting! With the standard exhaust, it's making 181bhp, and 280nm torque! It's also reaching that torque a good 500 rpm earlier than the 1.4 turbo and holding it far far longer.

 

The hybrid turbo is basically the 1.4 turbo core, packaged into a very heavily machined 1.2 turbo casing, the exhaust turbine is clipped slightly for more top-end amongst other little bits like ported exhaust manifold etc. The slimmer passageways keep exhaust gasses flowing faster and help the turbo spool up better despite it being clipped on the exhaust turbine.

 

The exhaust becomes a limiting factor past 5000 rpm where torque finally starts to drop off (as boost has to be lowered to prevent egt's getting too high from backpressure), with a sports cat or decat, it's likely to make over 200bhp, so i guess that's where my money's going next...

The other issue they've noted is that at 181bhp the fuel rail pressure just starts to drop a little, while not an issue at the moment, i'm looking at a sports-cat and it's possible that the HPFP may well become the next restricting factor, so that may become a part of their hybrid turbo package.

 

Past the 200bhp mark though you're looking at uprated rods as you'll need more than 1.6 bar boost and that's about the safe maximum for stock rods.

 

So here it is, the graph i've been waiting so long for;

i see taht everybody here is doing like 230-250nm...how? mine with a smaller 1.4 turbo is doing 287nm and 156hp 

1 hour ago, Dumi3 said:

i see taht everybody here is doing like 230-250nm...how? mine with a smaller 1.4 turbo is doing 287nm and 156hp 

The smaller 1.4 turbo is very similar to the 1.2 turbo and is easier to map in.

 

The torque just depends how much boost you give it, normally to keep the smaller turbos in a safe zone they're kept about 1.2-1.3 bar and make about 230-240nm with std exhaust, 280nm needs about 1.5 bar but a downpipe will help things somewhat as you can have more torque with the same boost and a bit more power. So that's actually about normal i'd say.

2 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The smaller 1.4 turbo is very similar to the 1.2 turbo and is easier to map in.

 

The torque just depends how much boost you give it, normally to keep the smaller turbos in a safe zone they're kept about 1.2-1.3 bar and make about 230-240nm with std exhaust, 280nm needs about 1.5 bar but a downpipe will help things somewhat as you can have more torque with the same boost and a bit more power. So that's actually about normal i'd say.

oo, i see, i think i have 1.5bar of boost. 

2 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The smaller 1.4 turbo is very similar to the 1.2 turbo and is easier to map in.

 

The torque just depends how much boost you give it, normally to keep the smaller turbos in a safe zone they're kept about 1.2-1.3 bar and make about 230-240nm with std exhaust, 280nm needs about 1.5 bar but a downpipe will help things somewhat as you can have more torque with the same boost and a bit more power. So that's actually about normal i'd say.

so whats the limit o f the smaller turbos?

1 hour ago, Dumi3 said:

well, i have a 1.4 turbo (a smaller one because i didn't know the codes back then) and i have fitted it with a custom downpipe (63mm) custom cold intake and a custom stage making 156hp and 287nm, but its pretty loud with a downpipe (a have a mid silencer and a final one pretty big ones actually) 

sorry not a silencer, 2 mufflers, one on mid and on in the back

Edited 19 February, 20215 yr by Dumi3

3 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The smaller 1.4 turbo is very similar to the 1.2 turbo and is easier to map in.

 

The torque just depends how much boost you give it, normally to keep the smaller turbos in a safe zone they're kept about 1.2-1.3 bar and make about 230-240nm with std exhaust, 280nm needs about 1.5 bar but a downpipe will help things somewhat as you can have more torque with the same boost and a bit more power. So that's actually about normal i'd say.

 

Thats if you can find a downpipe? 

 

Also nightmare for mots and vosa having no cat. 

 

Ive heard of people that do a downpipe and it starts to smell in the cabin even when replaced the gasket 

1 hour ago, Oneshotlpm said:

 

Thats if you can find a downpipe? 

 

Also nightmare for mots and vosa having no cat. 

 

Ive heard of people that do a downpipe and it starts to smell in the cabin even when replaced the gasket 

Ive heard this as well. But my clio 182 had no cat but I only found out come MOT time. There was never any smell just obnoxiously loud as it had a custom titanium exhaust.

 

There is a decat on AliExpress for around £100 not sure what the quality is like though. 

1 hour ago, Oneshotlpm said:

 

Thats if you can find a downpipe? 

 

Also nightmare for mots and vosa having no cat. 

 

Ive heard of people that do a downpipe and it starts to smell in the cabin even when replaced the gasket 

It would only make a smell in the cabin if it's either leaking or you're sat still with a slight backwind. Even std exhaust gives a slight smell when sat defrosting if there's a slight backwind bringing the fumes to the front.

 

Tony Banks will do a sports cat exhaust for 439 i believe.

 

As long as it's a decent 200 cell cat and you warm it up beforehand it should pass mot fine. Cheap sports cats often struggle. Milteks can struggle unless gotten red hot on smaller engines as they don't get them hot enough.

 

What mistake people often make with sports cats is having it way oversized. So long as the cat can handle the flow it doesn't matter how large or small it is it won't cause a restriction. But having a large one means a lot more surface area for the slower moving cooler gasses to heat up. Smaller downpipe and cat keeps the gasses moving quickly and hotter so they'll get the cat nice and hot to work properly.

1 minute ago, cm9876 said:

Ive heard this as well. But my clio 182 had no cat but I only found out come MOT time. There was never any smell just obnoxiously loud as it had a custom titanium exhaust.

 

There is a decat on AliExpress for around £100 not sure what the quality is like though. 

 

Id never use or put anything on my car that's from there 😂

2 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

It would only make a smell in the cabin if it's either leaking or you're sat still with a slight backwind. Even std exhaust gives a slight smell when sat defrosting if there's a slight backwind bringing the fumes to the front.

 

Tony Banks will do a sports cat exhaust for 439 i believe.

 

As long as it's a decent 200 cell cat and you warm it up beforehand it should pass mot fine. Cheap sports cats often struggle. Milteks can struggle unless gotten red hot on smaller engines as they don't get them hot enough.

 

What mistake people often make with sports cats is having it way oversized. So long as the cat can handle the flow it doesn't matter how large or small it is it won't cause a restriction. But having a large one means a lot more surface area for the slower moving cooler gasses to heat up. Smaller downpipe and cat keeps the gasses moving quickly and hotter so they'll get the cat nice and hot to work properly.

 

Yeah but it's finding one. I certainly wouldn't use Tony Banks I've heard some horrendous story's! Its got to be done properly with time and effort by a professional. 

Just now, Oneshotlpm said:

 

Yeah but it's finding one. I certainly wouldn't use Tony Banks I've heard some horrendous story's! Its got to be done properly with time and effort by a professional. 

What stories have you heard about Tony Banks. They seem to be well regarded in the Seat Ibiza community

1 minute ago, cm9876 said:

What stories have you heard about Tony Banks. They seem to be well regarded in the Seat Ibiza community

I'm in Kent but have lots of mates in Leeds. I'm not one for bashing it's everyone's personal preference but not a chance I'd use them after seeing the workmanship. Mediocre of you want a cheap cat back i guess. 

 

 

@FabiaGonzales What would be your final verdict on this whole process? I've read pretty much all the thread.

Is it worth getting a large 1.4 Turbo (there seems to be issues mapping them) or should you just stick with a Stage 1 map.

If you want more power, is the only real option to go hybrid turbo or the smaller 1.4 turbo and switch some parts?.

 

How much was your hybrid setup all in?