What have you done to your Superb III today?

[J.R.]

There are no leaks per sé on a domestic system like there are on a vehicle with flexible hoses, the pipes are copper with either swaged or soldered joints, think of it as a domestic fridge which never need topping up.

 

The exception is those sold for DIY installs with precharged extension pipes (usually partially discharged by inquisitive people in the DIY sheds) with dry break type couplings, these have O ring seals and its not a question of if they will leak but how quickly.

 

I cant make out from the label on your unit what gas it uses, it looks old so might be R22 Freon in which case you will have to throw away the unit.

[Colin170CR]

3 hours ago, UndertheRadar said:

Sorry to pinch this to ask, but how often should a household system need charged? Ours has stopped blowing cold and the fan on the outer unit is no longer coming on. I have assumed it’s maybe a low pressure issue that’s disabled it but I’ve no way to test it and may be wrong. 
trying to find someone local that will check it at the minute. 

As per JR. If installed correctly a house A/C installation should never leak unless the flared pipe joints on the outdoor / indoor unit have become weakened or the pipework itself has been damaged. Of course there's also the possibility of leaking pipes inside the outdoor / indoor unit due to corrosion or damage. If that nameplate is anything to go by it hasn't been serviced for a very long time. It should be checked & cleaned at least once a year by an A/C engineer. I did mine just last week & the outdoor coil was full of leaves & debris which would reduce its efficiency. The indoor unit is also a breeding ground for bacteria so should be checked & cleaned with anti-bacterial spray every 6 months. The condensate pipe to outside or via a pump also needs to be cleaned & flushed. I think I can just make out the refrigerant type as R410a which is an HFC refrigerant. While still available R410a is being phased out as higher global warming refrigerant.

If the outdoor fan is not coming on & the compressor not running then it is probably a low pressure issue due to loss of gas. It needs a pressure & leak test by an FGAS certified A/C / refrigeration engineer. By law no gas gas can be put into the system until the leak has been found / repaired & a vacuum pulled on the system to remove any moisture or non-condensibles that may have got into the system. 

The service manual for your 2.5kW outdoor unit can be found here http://mitsubi****ech.co.uk/Data/M-Series/MSC(H)/2007/MUH-GA-VB/MUH-GA25[35]VB_SM.pdf

This indicates your system is circa 2006 vintage.

Hope this helps.   

[UndertheRadar]

Thank you both. The AC engineer that installed it and maintained it for years has retired and everyone I’ve rang since has either said it’s not worth their while coming out to a small job or said they would and then never turned up. 
I will continue my search. 

[Colin170CR]

1 hour ago, UndertheRadar said:

Thank you both. The AC engineer that installed it and maintained it for years has retired and everyone I’ve rang since has either said it’s not worth their while coming out to a small job or said they would and then never turned up. 
I will continue my search. 

To be fair most engineers will charge at least £350 for a P&L test + whatever it takes to repair the leak & recharge the system. You could be looking at £400-800. Might be worth considering replacing the indoor / outdoor units with a more modern versions. Most new models can re-use existing pipework if its the correct size which needs to be flushed to remove any existing oil or contaminants before recharging with R32 refrigerant which is what most new small capacity systems are using now. 

Good luck with your search.

[J.R.]

Does yours heat as well? IE is it a reversible heat pump?

 

Does it work in heating mode but not refrigeration?

 

My unit is about the same year and has stopped heating but still works on cooling, I believe my problem is what I call a 5 port valve that is not actuating.

 

@Colin170CR Do you have any advice for me? I have yet to go looking inside the external unit, I will check the fuses etc and give the valve a few encouraging taps, what else could I do to find the fault, I have a manifold guage for car aircon and the correct adaptor to check the pressure but I dont think its a loss of refrigerant because the cooling function works.

 

My gas is either R407 or R410, it was bought around 2007 cheap as the gas was being phased out, its the type that came precharged and you opened valve to purge out the air in the connection pipes, the last of the flared union type before they went to the leaky dry break ones that nobody wants to work on.

 

Did you know that the flaring tool is called une Dugeonnaire in French, a weird word even in French which sounded like it was based around an English name so I did some searching and fell down the wormhole of an 18th century Scottish engineer called Richard Dudgeon, the inventor of the hydraulic jack, boiler pipe roller flaring tools, hydraulic punches ans shears and one of the first steam powered road vehicles which was ahead of its time.

[Colin170CR]

5 hours ago, J.R. said:

Does yours heat as well? IE is it a reversible heat pump?

 

Does it work in heating mode but not refrigeration?

 

My unit is about the same year and has stopped heating but still works on cooling, I believe my problem is what I call a 5 port valve that is not actuating.

 

@Colin170CR Do you have any advice for me? I have yet to go looking inside the external unit, I will check the fuses etc and give the valve a few encouraging taps, what else could I do to find the fault, I have a manifold guage for car aircon and the correct adaptor to check the pressure but I dont think its a loss of refrigerant because the cooling function works.

 

My gas is either R407 or R410, it was bought around 2007 cheap as the gas was being phased out, its the type that came precharged and you opened valve to purge out the air in the connection pipes, the last of the flared union type before they went to the leaky dry break ones that nobody wants to work on.

 

Did you know that the flaring tool is called une Dugeonnaire in French, a weird word even in French which sounded like it was based around an English name so I did some searching and fell down the wormhole of an 18th century Scottish engineer called Richard Dudgeon, the inventor of the hydraulic jack, boiler pipe roller flaring tools, hydraulic punches ans shears and one of the first steam powered road vehicles which was ahead of its time.

 

My system is a heat pump so it can heat & cool.

If your system works in cooling but not in heating the problem is either:-

1.     Stuck slider inside the 4-way valve.

2.     Burnt out / open circuit Solenoid on the 4-way valve.

3.     Combination of 1 & 2.

4.     No signal from control board to the 4-way valve solenoid.

If you have an electrical tester with a continuity / ohms setting test the solenoid on the 4-way valve. If it’s open circuit, then a new valve assembly or just the solenoid (if removable type) will be needed. If the solenoid checks out OK then it’s either a stuck slider inside the valve or no signal from the control board for heat mode. Check for signal from board when heat mode is selected. If signal & solenoid check out OK it’s a stuck slider inside the valve. Gentle tapping with a soft faced hammer can free up a stuck slider but if it’s really stuck & cannot be shifted then a new valve assembly will be required which will require all the system gas to be removed into a suitable refrigerant cylinder, the old 4-way valve un-brazed & the new 4-way valve brazed back in with nitrogen flowing through the pipes during brazing to prevent any oxidisation on the inside of the pipes.

After fitting a new 4-way valve the pipework must be pressure & leak tested. After that a vacuum pulled on the whole system to 1,000micron & held for 30mins to remove all oxygen, moisture & other contaminants from the system before adding any refrigerant back in.

Below is a picture of a 4-way valve with a removable solenoid valve & below that how a 4-way valve works in an A/C system.

If the slider is stuck & new valve is required, it will probably be better to replace the system with a new one rather than spend time & money on trying to fix it. A new system will be more efficient & come with a minimum 3 year warranty. The existing system is 16 years old so has lasted reasonably well.

However, if you do go for a new system note that the pipework will have to be replaced as well because old R407c system pipe sizes are two large for the latest R32 gas systems which generally use pipe sizes as least one size smaller.

 

If you let me know the make & model of your system, I may be able to find a service manual for it which may help you diagnose the problem further.

 

Interesting info on the flaring tool name in French & history.

 

Fun fact, pipe-work flaring tools for R410a & R32 pipework systems are different than for older R407c & R22 systems. The angles of the flare are different & the tool forms the flare concentrically & not by just crushing the copper all in one go. Also, all modern flared joint nuts must now be tightened with a torque spanner to the manufacturers recommended setting. In the old days we just used two spanners until we thought it was about right or, until the cheeks of your backside touched together 😂. Invariably this meant that most flare nuts were overtightened which was the reason after some time many flared joints sheared off or split which caused refrigerant leaks.  

 

I hope this helps.  

[J.R.]

Thankyou so much for that Colin, I had theorised that the 4 way valve (not 5 port 😳) worked like that and that the testing etc would be in that manner but its good to know from a pro before my enthusiasm & ignorance caused a problem.

 

As you can probably tell I am an enthusiastic amateur & do not have the gas qualification although its something I intend to do as a retirement business.

 

I have a vacuum pump but not the means of recovering the gas, is that something which can be DIY'ed? If so can the gas then be re-used or is it simply for storage prior to recycling?

 

I would imagine that you would need seperate pumps, storage cylinders, hoses & manifold sets for each gas to avoid contamination, my neighbour is an installer & he only works with one, maybe 2 modern gases although he has offered to recover the R22 from an old system in my new house (he's a new neighbour to me at my new house).

 

I could braze in a valve but dont have the nitrogen to prevent oxidisation, I understand the need.

 

I agree with not repairing it if it needs gassing down, as it is still cooling and I rarely spend time the property now I will keep it but the heating was very usefull at the beginning and end of the winter period as the main heating is storage heaters which are useless when the temperatures are fluctuating, the heating function of the aircon came into its own then and I could have used it all winter as the off peak electricity prices are no longer a real saving.

[Colin170CR]

15 hours ago, J.R. said:

Thankyou so much for that Colin, I had theorised that the 4 way valve (not 5 port 😳) worked like that and that the testing etc would be in that manner but its good to know from a pro before my enthusiasm & ignorance caused a problem.

 

As you can probably tell I am an enthusiastic amateur & do not have the gas qualification although its something I intend to do as a retirement business.

 

I have a vacuum pump but not the means of recovering the gas, is that something which can be DIY'ed? If so can the gas then be re-used or is it simply for storage prior to recycling?

 

I would imagine that you would need seperate pumps, storage cylinders, hoses & manifold sets for each gas to avoid contamination, my neighbour is an installer & he only works with one, maybe 2 modern gases although he has offered to recover the R22 from an old system in my new house (he's a new neighbour to me at my new house).

 

I could braze in a valve but dont have the nitrogen to prevent oxidisation, I understand the need.

 

I agree with not repairing it if it needs gassing down, as it is still cooling and I rarely spend time the property now I will keep it but the heating was very usefull at the beginning and end of the winter period as the main heating is storage heaters which are useless when the temperatures are fluctuating, the heating function of the aircon came into its own then and I could have used it all winter as the off peak electricity prices are no longer a real saving.

To recover the gas you will need an approved refrigerant recovery cylinder like this one.

 

Yes, different recovered refrigerants (and the hoses used) are kept separate from each to avoid contamination. E.g. R22 uses mineral oil for lubrication whereas all newer refrigerants us POE synthetics so cannot be mixed together unless the refrigerants are going to be destroyed in which cas different refrigerants can be mixed together in one cylinder & labeled accordingly e.g. R12 from old car systems with R22 or R407c. 

Brazing pipes without nitrogen is the main cause of 4-way valves getting stuck & internal filters & cappilliary tubes getting block from the scale that is formed inside the pipes.

It's worth checking out the 4-way solenoid because this could be an easy / cheap fix. Also, tapping the valve if the solenoid istests OK. 

If you have a A/C engineer as a neighbour I would buy him a big dinner & see what he can do for you. 

 

New modern systems don't cost that much & your neighbour could probably get equipment from his normal wholesaler / supplier & install it for you with your help at "mates rates".

I'm not sure what the situation is in France but in the UK Refrigeration / A/C wholesalers "should" ask to see your certification cards (FGAS, REFCOM etc) before they sell anyone any refrigerant or A/C equipment containing refrigerant. This it to prevent unauthorised persons handling, transporting or installing refrigerant based systems. It's a tightly regulated industry over here but like all things there are ways of getting around the rules.

 

Hope this helps.

   

 

Edited 8 June, 2023 by Colin170CR

[JR RS]

"What have you done to your Superb III"......or so I thought Pg 128 would b about.....eesshhh.

[Breezy_Pete]

1 minute ago, JR RS said:

"What have you done to your Superb III"......or so I thought Pg 128 would b about.....eesshhh.

PM one of the mods to ask for a clean-up/removal of irrelevant stuff.  👍

[J.R.]

That is not right, Colins expertise has been of great help to people, start another thread using the content if need be.

 

JR RS did not create the thread, even if he did he dose not own it or cannot dictate what direction it takes after 128 pages, why is he getting so upset about thread drift when it is this wonderful community helping each other?

Edited 8 June, 2023 by J.R.

[J.R.]

@Colin170CR

 

I am replying to your comments before the postings might get deleted.

 

AC neighbour is at new house where I will indeed be installiing a ducted system with his knowledge and help.

 

The reversible system is at my appartment in the empty hôtel 800kms away.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

If you are happy to and enjoy imparting your knowledge then perhaps start a thread with a suitable title, that way the valuable info wont risk being deleted for having offended someone who given where they live probably will one day have need of it themselves.

 

The Brico-sheds sell systems to the public but either including the cost of a commissioning visit from an authorised dealer who will simply say "we don't cover your area" or you have to get a purchase authorsation from someone like my neighbour who will do the commissioning.

[numskull]

So I had the Aircon leak fixed this morning at Wheelbase (all went ok) and during this, they discovered the water pump housing has just started leaking; they called me into the workshop to show me the staining on the block and sump. So I’ve had to book it in on the 26th June so I can have a courtesy car and the cost will be £875 inc VAT. Oh and SWMBO cat tax reminder for the Focus arrived on Wednesday for £375. So all-in-all, June is turning out to be a bloody expensive month… 🙄

[Colin170CR]

17 minutes ago, numskull said:

So I had the Aircon leak fixed this morning at Wheelbase (all went ok) and during this, they discovered the water pump housing has just started leaking; they called me into the workshop to show me the staining on the block and sump. So I’ve had to book it in on the 26th June so I can have a courtesy car and the cost will be £875 inc VAT. Oh and SWMBO cat tax reminder for the Focus arrived on Wednesday for £375. So all-in-all, June is turning out to be a bloody expensive month… 🙄

Been there & done that with the water pump & thermostat change. In my case some discs & pads were needed at the same time. Bill was around £1k at my independent. It hurts when its an out of the blue necessity. 

I'm seriously looking at a used Electric car now for my wife & I to use as a daily driver & keep the 280 for long distance / holidays. 

[numskull]

Yeah that’s not a bad idea, Colin. The only problem is, the used car market is so strong, everything is expensive. I’d quite like to get a small ICE car for to/from work, maybe a Citigo or Fabia. 

[Colin170CR]

1 hour ago, numskull said:

Yeah that’s not a bad idea, Colin. The only problem is, the used car market is so strong, everything is expensive. I’d quite like to get a small ICE car for to/from work, maybe a Citigo or Fabia. 

I know. Some silly prices out there but I think there are some bargains out there if your not too picky - which is where I will come unstuck.

Of course it depends on what your budget is but I would have thought there would be plenty of previous gen Fabia's out there.

  

[edwards]

4 hours ago, numskull said:

So I had the Aircon leak fixed this morning at Wheelbase (all went ok) and during this, they discovered the water pump housing has just started leaking; they called me into the workshop to show me the staining on the block and sump. So I’ve had to book it in on the 26th June so I can have a courtesy car and the cost will be £875 inc VAT. Oh and SWMBO cat tax reminder for the Focus arrived on Wednesday for £375. So all-in-all, June is turning out to be a bloody expensive month… 🙄

 

They found my water pump leak at MOT, enough to be mentioned on the MOT 'cert'. I put my coolant pressure tester on it cold and it didn't even loose pressure over 60mins, but the drip and staining was deffo there so perhaps leaked only when hot. A lot of Golf forums (where the engine is more common) say to leave it alone as it will 'never get worse' but I couldn't bring myself to do that. Knowing my luck it would go pop while towing the trailer in the middle of the night with the kids and dogs aboard on the side of the A30   Cost me £670 at my local independent, including the parts kit with drive belt etc. Its such a  common failure most parts suppliers do a standard parts kit for the job.

 

like you, I could have done without the unexpected cost. 

[Colin170CR]

16 minutes ago, edwards said:

 

They found my water pump leak at MOT, enough to be mentioned on the MOT 'cert'. I put my coolant pressure tester on it cold and it didn't even loose pressure over 60mins, but the drip and staining was deffo there so perhaps leaked only when hot. A lot of Golf forums (where the engine is more common) say to leave it alone as it will 'never get worse' but I couldn't bring myself to do that. Knowing my luck it would go pop while towing the trailer in the middle of the night with the kids and dogs aboard on the side of the A30   Cost me £670 at my local independent, including the parts kit with drive belt etc. Its such a  common failure most parts suppliers do a standard parts kit for the job.

 

like you, I could have done without the unexpected cost. 

I got a low coolant alarm on my dash first. Went looking for the leak & couldn't find it. Topped it up & forgot about it until it went in for a routine service which is when I got the call to saw the pump was leaking. I guess they new what to look for at that age & mileage. As you say it is a common problem on that engine.

[numskull]

They’ve had a couple of class actions in the USA and won, getting full reimbursement of the costs. 
The issue I have is obviously, it’ll just reoccur in 30k. VAG know its a poor design and the have done nothing to resolve the problem. Still it helps them make money on ridiculously overpriced parts and their the dealerships to make money fixing a problem which should not exist. One bit of interesting info I was told; since the massive outlay VAG have had with the emissions scandal, is they’ve raised their global prices on parts between 20 and 1000%, in an effort to recoup their losses. 
 

Edited 11 June, 2023 by numskull

[ZacDaMan72]

Whiteline rear sway bar fitted to my DCC Sportline...night and day difference. Feels so much tighter and the body transitions are way quicker. Next up is brakes as they're gonna need replacing this year. Going with DBA T3 rotors front and T2 rear, with their Street Performance pads all round. Anyone here have any experience with them?

[numskull]

13 minutes ago, ZacDaMan72 said:

Whiteline rear sway bar fitted to my DCC Sportline...

Did you fit it yourself?

[ZacDaMan72]

2 hours ago, numskull said:

Did you fit it yourself?

Nah, too lazy, paid an hour of labour. Not difficult to DIY though.

[Penpusher]

Not quite what the topic heading says as this was what I did with my Superb over three weeks rather than today.  We went on a trip to Lithuania and were away for three weeks, spending 3 nights in Vilnius and then 11 nights in Klaipėda, the other nights being spent on the outward and and return journeys.  We went via France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Poland, but missed Poland on the return journey.  As SWMBO doesn't drive and I'm 71, we don't go too far each day but find somewhere nice where we can visit the town, have a good meal and be relaxed and ready to start again the next day.

 

The car behaved faultlessly and didn't miss a beat.  It's looking rather travel stained at the moment as although we didn't have a drop of rain, it frequently got covered in dust that became very unsightly with any damp in the air overnight.  We were in the car for 6 or 7 hours some days and we didn't feel uncomfortable at the end of each journey.  Having DSG, ACC and traffic jam assist are essential for me on a journey like this and I would be thinking twice about undertaking such a trip without them.

 

Being retired and without children, we went before the schools broke up and took mid-week ferries between Dover and Calais when they were not too busy and avoided any long queues.  On the return journey, we missed Poland by taking the ferry from Klaipėda to Kiel and saved an overnight stop on the way home.  The cost of the ferry was about the same as driving, but we didn't like it and won't go this way again.  The car had to be driven down to deck 2 in the bowels of the ship and we then had to walk up steep, narrow metal steps to deck 6 for our cabin with overnight bags.  The stairs were long as the decks above us were for lorries, so they were quite tall.  The cabin was very small and the air vent seemed to blow only warm air.  On return to the car in Kiel, we had to reverse, make a three point turn then a 180 degrees up the ramp as deck 2 was a dead end.  Despite this criticism, the food was reasonable and we both slept well.

 

Taking the ferry to Kiel meant that we didn't drive through Lithuania or Poland going home, which was a shame as this is my favourite section of the journey.  The traffic through these two countries is usually light and costs are lower than in western Europe for fuel, hotels, etc.  The ferry has the advantage though in that it heads west as soon as it leaves Klaipėda, but when you're driving you have to travel due east, then south before you head west to get around the Russian territory of Kaliningrad, so after about 7 hours of driving you arrive in Warsaw, which is virtually the same distance from home as the crow flies as Klaipėda!

 

We're back home now with lawns waiting to be cut, a car needing cleaning and lots of laundry for SWMBO!

 

[numskull]

Well done - that’s a loooooonnnng old drive. Great MPG too; I can only dream of 53mpg! 

[Colin170CR]

4 hours ago, numskull said:

Well done - that’s a loooooonnnng old drive. Great MPG too; I can only dream of 53mpg! 

Likewise. I'm averaging 27.5mpg currently.

I used to get over 65mpg from my old MkII 2.0 TDi 170 DSG when I was commuting up & down the M1. Thankfully I don't have to do that trip anymore.