Expansion bottle replacement

[Kental]

3 hours ago, foregonereality said:

Hey all - has anyone with the newer models that came without the bag been given a service manual/schedule that's different to our own as regards Coolant changes? 

 

 

 

Mine doesn't even have a service book, it is all digital now.

[hatchy]

On 30/01/2020 at 09:01, CajoLajo said:

Mate's AUDI S3 has "Mit Silikat" stamp on the tank but no bag inside. He bought it new in 2014. Same expansion tank as mine. On a side note, I went to local VW dealership today to purchase a bottle of G13 ($34 for 1,5 L). I was told by two people there that if I am topping up the coolant, I need to use it undiluted. Why did they tell me this, I was not asking any questions? This is new to me. Previous advice was to always use 50:50 solution and never undiluted coolant when topping up. This goes in line with the theory that G13 really deteriorates without silica in the cooling system. Another word, the cars without the silicate bag are no longer maintenance free as far as the coolant is concerned (and topping  up with undiluted G13 may extend the life of coolant

 

 

 

May have been sold ready mixed g13 coolant.

 

Found this site talking about g13 coolant. Strange that it says it's glycerine based and yet on genuine VW bottle it states ethylene glycol

 

https://www.wolflubes.com/EN_EU/Blog/2016/What-you-need-to-know-about-G13-antifreeze-and-coolant.aspx

[Breezy_Pete]

7 minutes ago, hatchy said:

Strange that it says it's glycerine based and yet on genuine VW bottle it states ethylene glycol

 

This is what I've understood from reading various things about it:

Glycerine is the substance that it's made from, at the start of the chemical process that ends up producing G13.

This is more eco-friendly as an industrial process than whatever preceded it to make G12++. The end product is the same, I believe, it's just how they get there that's changed.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

Removed a double walled mit silikat tank (part number ends in a ) and replaced it with a new M which is without along with mixing up fresh g13 to replace the old that was removed.

 

few interesting points...

 

That A suffix tank has a silicate container and a second mesh outside when I cut the old tank open.

 

The outer was intact, but the inner mesh was starting to degrade allowing a few crystals between the meshes, but still trapped safely.

 

The old tank has sensor prongs covered in plastic, the new just metal.

 

The tea bag style bags, it looks to me as if coolant movement could potentially catch the bag on these relatively fine prongs allowing them to damage the bag. Possibly the start of the problem.

 

either way, I think the older tanks are probably a safer design, but not infallible. The newer tea bag tanks seem like a bean counter design that’s backfired.

 

The basic M revision tank and replacing coolant at every water pump change is probably better for cars out of warranty. Changing coolant more frequently, eg every 2-3 years along with brake fluid would probably be good for additional piece of mind.

[benterrier]

Thanks Cheezemonkhai for taking time and effort into cutting it open. Have you any photos.

[cheezemonkhai]

Sadly no photos as it was bin day and it took quite a while to get through the plastic material.

[CajoLajo]

8 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Removed a double walled mit silikat tank (part number ends in a ) and replaced it with a new M which is without along with mixing up fresh g13 to replace the old that was removed.

 

few interesting points...

 

That A suffix tank has a silicate container and a second mesh outside when I cut the old tank open.

 

The outer was intact, but the inner mesh was starting to degrade allowing a few crystals between the meshes, but still trapped safely.

 

The old tank has sensor prongs covered in plastic, the new just metal.

 

The tea bag style bags, it looks to me as if coolant movement could potentially catch the bag on these relatively fine prongs allowing them to damage the bag. Possibly the start of the problem.

 

either way, I think the older tanks are probably a safer design, but not infallible. The newer tea bag tanks seem like a bean counter design that’s backfired.

 

The basic M revision tank and replacing coolant at every water pump change is probably better for cars out of warranty. Changing coolant more frequently, eg every 2-3 years along with brake fluid would probably be good for additional piece of mind.

Thank you. This is the first meaningful insight into the double walled "Mit Silikat" tanks. I am having troubles sourcing the new version of the tank here in Australia (everything I found so far has G12 label). Can you please share a link and the part number.

Edited 12 February, 2020 by CajoLajo

[cheezemonkhai]

The part number is the same as the old tank, but with an M suffix rather than anything else.

Most dealers over here seem to keep a couple on the shelf. 
 

I don’t claim to know better than the designer, but in my view leaving it there was an almost certain £1000 bill and changing it was £30, 15 minutes of my time and probably and extra £20-50 every cambelt change or maybe every 2 years. (Coolant change).

 

One is a big bill, the other a smaller series of manageable expenses.

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2020 by cheezemonkhai

[octavia5]

2 hours ago, CajoLajo said:

Thank you. This is the first meaningful insight into the double walled "Mit Silikat" tanks. I am having troubles sourcing the new version of the tank here in Australia (everything I found so far has G12 label). Can you please share a link and the part number.

 Surely it does not matter what the print on the tank says, you can just fill with G13 - if the tank fits -  fit it

[CajoLajo]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The part number is the same as the old tank, but with an M suffix rather than anything else.

Most dealers over here seem to keep a couple on the shelf. 
 

I don’t claim to know better than the designer, but in my view leaving it there was an almost certain £1000 bill and changing it was £30, 15 minutes of my time and probably and extra £20-50 every cambelt change or maybe every 2 years. (Coolant change).

 

One is a big bill, the other a smaller series of manageable expenses.

 

 

That is how I see it. Never had a car before this Scout that did not require regular coolant changes so nothing that I am not used to doing. And the part number should be on the coolant tank? Is this it https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/oen/5q0121407a

Edited 12 February, 2020 by CajoLajo

[Breezy_Pete]

You want 5Q0121407M

[Dellbert]

so car returned to me with   allegadly new heater matrix  new water pump ( new cambelt although they said it really didnt need it ) system flush  and everything works ....

 

guess whats not been changed though .....

[cheezemonkhai]

6 hours ago, CajoLajo said:

That is how I see it. Never had a car before this Scout that did not require regular coolant changes so nothing that I am not used to doing. And the part number should be on the coolant tank? Is this it https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/oen/5q0121407a

That's the old one I took out...

 

You don't wan't another one of those if you want to remove the silicate completely, although if a genuine A, it seems on casual observation to be a bit better engineered than a teabag.

I have a feeling most will be just replacements for the a varient, eg a tea bag version.

 

5 hours ago, Wino said:

You want 5Q0121407M

 

Indeed this is the part number I have.

 

3 hours ago, Dellbert said:

so car returned to me with   allegadly new heater matrix  new water pump ( new cambelt although they said it really didnt need it ) system flush  and everything works ....

 

guess whats not been changed though .....

 

Hmmm, well I'd be checking they removed the silicate bag or why they didn't replace the tank with a new one, with new silicate capsule/bag.

If not then you could have the same issue again, assuming that was the cause, which it may or may not have been.

[CajoLajo]

On 13/02/2020 at 04:21, cheezemonkhai said:

You want 5Q0121407M

 

I went to a local VW dealership and the only had 5Q0121407T part number. I had a good look at it and it looks a different design. It is double walled, "Mit Silikat" stamp but it appears to have a bag in the outer section of the tank not a cartridge. They are getting the M part for me on Monday and they said that is the latest version of the tank. They never heard of the issue...The tank is priced at $73. I cannot source a £ 15 tank here in Australia.

[benterrier]

18 minutes ago, CajoLajo said:

 

I went to a local VW dealership and the only had 5Q0121407T part number. I had a good look at it and it looks a different design. It is double walled, "Mit Silikat" stamp but it appears to have a bag in the outer section of the tank not a cartridge. They are getting the M part for me on Monday and they said that is the latest version of the tank. They never heard of the issue...The tank is priced at $73. I cannot source a £ 15 tank here in Australia.

Think I will do away with the MIT Silikat tank if I keep the car out of warranty. My 18 year old mk1 has had 2 cambelt changes in its life,(170k), the first the water pump was changed and inhibitor was replaced. Never had to top up, stays bang on the temp gauge mark, heater works fine and G12 yes G12 is pink as the day it was put in there.

[CajoLajo]

The "M" part has arrived. No bag, no walls inside the tank. Original VW part made in Germany. Hopefully, I am not late.....

Edited 17 February, 2020 by CajoLajo

[cheezemonkhai]

If you look at the second picture, you can see the inlet at the bottom and the prongs.

 

Put a teabag between those and you can see how regular, light movement against those could cause very slight abrasion or slight piercing that with time could degrade.

 

Here’s hoping for g13+ with additional protectant in it and a 5 or so year service interval so it can just be done with the cam belt.

Edited 18 February, 2020 by cheezemonkhai

[CajoLajo]

I have changed the tank. Easy job. The coolant I extracted from the tank was clear and not contaminated. However, the colour was not pink as I posted earlier. I don't have a name for it. It is between pink and orange. Added about 800mls of 50/50 G13. The heating works. I will change the coolant when my next service comes up.

[foregonereality]

On 18/02/2020 at 10:33, CajoLajo said:

I have changed the tank. Easy job. The coolant I extracted from the tank was clear and not contaminated. However, the colour was not pink as I posted earlier. I don't have a name for it. It is between pink and orange. Added about 800mls of 50/50 G13. The heating works. I will change the coolant when my next service comes up.

 

Thank you for the update CajoLajo! If it's easy then I think I'll go about changing the tank myself. I'm hoping my double walled tank will cope in the meantime.

 

Is it relatively easy to change the coolant on these cars? Given how they claimed the coolant should last the lifetime of the engine I'm wondering if they even have a method to drain the coolant. I hope it doesn't involve removing the water pump!

Edited 23 February, 2020 by foregonereality

[cheezemonkhai]

On 23/02/2020 at 14:52, foregonereality said:

 

Thank you for the update CajoLajo! If it's easy then I think I'll go about changing the tank myself. I'm hoping my double walled tank will cope in the meantime.

 

Is it relatively easy to change the coolant on these cars? Given how they claimed the coolant should last the lifetime of the engine I'm wondering if they even have a method to drain the coolant. I hope it doesn't involve removing the water pump!

Can’t say I know how hard the change is, but I can’t imagine it’s something a local Indy couldn’t do.

 

Worst case I would say once a year remove the coolant that’s in the tank and replace it with fresh g13 mixed in the correct proportions. Then a full change at 5 years with the cambelt/waterpump.

 

That results in probably changing a small amount every year, but all you need is a turkey baster and a jug + new coolant.

[CajoLajo]

Very easy to do. You need to suck out the coolant first. Then use pliers to disconnect the hoses. Remove the old tank, install the new tank. Reconnect the hoses and add G13 (50/50). 15 minutes for me is all it took.

[cheezemonkhai]

8 hours ago, CajoLajo said:

Very easy to do. You need to suck out the coolant first. Then use pliers to disconnect the hoses. Remove the old tank, install the new tank. Reconnect the hoses and add G13 (50/50). 15 minutes for me is all it took.

I was talking about a complete coolant drain and replace/bleed.

 

As you say, the tank itself is a doddle.

[foregonereality]

Hi guys,

 

Would anyone know if the cap from the older twin walled tanks will fit the new 5Q0121407M part expansion bottle? I was speaking to the dealers and they weren't sure.

 

My current twin walled tank has a groove going through the middle, while the newer cap looks to be deeper and with a larger image on it. 

 

Will I have to order this cap as well?

 

Cheeze/Cajo - you guys might know as you've been through the process. 

 

Would be great if the caps are inter-changeable as it will save an extra €17 for a new cap. 

 

Thank you again for all your time and help.

[CajoLajo]

It fits most definitely. The new tank was sold to me without the cap.

[foregonereality]

21 minutes ago, CajoLajo said:

It fits most definitely. The new tank was sold to me without the cap.

 

Perfect! Thank you for that. I'll order the tank first thing in the morning. It's down as €27 before VAT so about €34 included. It's a small bit of preventative maintenance that will be a bit of a fun project too at least :).

Edited 3 June, 2020 by foregonereality