Reading SSP555 and watching the Youtube videos posted earlier regarding camshaft and crankshaft timing tolerances and the highly complex setup procedure required with multi step precision mechanical measurement and adjustment, intermediate calculations and entering programmed corrections in the ecu, I can't help but feel it is all getting far too complicated and must be prone to error and mistakes.

 

Why 0.1 degree of camshaft angle should make a difference I do not know, but, for certain, the cambelt can easily stretch to give a far larger shift than that 

 

Looks a nightmare for any future work and some very expensive looking bits to go wrong - just look at the water pump (ssp555 p15)

 

Glad I have the 1.4tsi - although even that is too complex for my liking.

 

 

9 hours ago, rayx said:

 

Not sure if injection quantities can be checked at diag as live data for this engine EA 211 EVO family, it is not possible for EA 888.

 

Yet one idea, why people could notice this engine jerking issue not straight from the new. xman already mentioned it here. It could be the regulated stepless oil pump, which surely has Run-in period set up from the factory for first thousand or more? miles, so it has enough oil pressure for all including Camshaft Adjustment. When this feature is by ECU switched off after driven distance, oil pump is regulated so there might by issue on low revs with insuficient oil pressure still high enough to not raise an alarm via oil pressure sensor (Switching pressure: 0.03 - 0.06 MPa (0.3 - 0.6 bar)), on oil 0W-20

 

Just to compare, 1.8 TSI EA888 Gen2+Gen3 has for Low pressure sensor Switching pressure: 0.055 - 0.085 MPa (0.55 - 0.85 bar), on oil 5W-30

We couldn't notice the kangarooing because the car was poised ready on the garage forecourt when we arrived due to the simple fact that the dealer drives vehicles from where they usually keep new cars at the back and upon hand-over vehicles are usually driven to the front. That short drive and some revving is enough to "prep" the car!

Skoda UK previously helpful lady is now swerving my calls, I had e mailed to state my issue happens if the car is warm or cold and that both the dealer and the independant inspection confirm this, I also added the car dying every so often to my list of issues and mentioned that some cars had been returned due to the issue.

 

I got the below fob off non answer to my questions.

 

Welcome to px the car !!!!!  cheeky .......

 

Thank you for your email received on 11 January 2019. Firstly, I would like to apologise that you feel your vehicle does act differently to the information in the email. We can only advise that the issue may get better once the vehicle gets to temperature, we cannot confirm that it will in every instance. We are currently not accepting any rejections on these vehicles, should your own ŠKODA Retailer be able to support you with a part exchange in to another vehicle then that it always a possibility; however, no vehicles are being authorised through ŠKODA for an exchange. I cannot comment on the vehicle you have mentioned in your previous email, as we have had no involvement in this vehicle. Once again, I am sorry that you are unhappy with the information we have provided; however, the decision remains unchanged. Once the software update is available on this vehicle, your ŠKODA Retailer will notify you to come in for the update to be done. Thank you for contacting ŠKODA UK.

 

I'm not giving up, are they really going to wait until one of these vehicles causes a serious accident before doing anything? 

 

 

Have noticed that latest released Audi A4 and some other newly revised VAG models are now being fitted with 2.0tsi 150ps 270Nm engines, 1.5tsi not offered.

 

Could it be that 1.5tsi may be scrapped?

Thinking there may be 'mileage' in xman's theory about control loop instabilities, has any owner with kangarooing noticed any difference in behaviour of the engine when the car is heavily versus lightly loaded (i.e. number of passengers/ amount of luggage)? Apologies if I've missed such discussion in this lengthy thread.

 

I found myself noting the extreme initial steepness of the torque curve for this engine in one of rayx's linked SSPs, and thinking that very small changes in rpm result in biiig torque changes at the low end of the rev range. Then thinking about all the variables going on at the time: accelerator pedal to throttle position mapping/timing; cam adjustments; fuelling changes; turbo control; DMF 'springiness'; human attempts to correct perceived misbehaviour [and all the others I've missed]. Could it be that there's just too much happening all at the same time at 'tip-in' to calculate/compute predictable responses? Could slowing down the system by loading the engine with more vehicle mass  give it more time to 'settle' and not 'overshoot' ?

 

 

Yes I have a had a glass or two, but would be interested to hear of anyone who has experimented with this, or who will do.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Wino said:

Could slowing down the system by loading the engine with more vehicle mass  give it more time to 'settle' and not 'overshoot' ?

I can see the TPI now...

 

....Install the 500kg weights as described below....

Been moving house of late, had a car full of stuff to the brim.... no different for me. 

On 11/01/2019 at 15:06, Abu said:

Now related to our issue: my car also kangaroos but on a lesser scale and only when cold (driving off my yard first thing in the morning). However, I found a solution which I would like you to test for yourself, in case it makes any difference: before you drive off for the first time, give it a constant rev for about 10-20 seconds - not too low and not too high. I keep mine at ~1500rpm. During this time, the rev indicator (and enginer as well) jump up and down all over the place, but I keep my foot in the same position without moving it a bit. If you keep it steady you will notice that the revs slowly stabilize. When you see this you are ready to go and normally no kangarooing should occur anymore.

 

Well I highlight it once more. This behaviour what Abu describes could be caused by two things. First one is catalyst heating phase with double injection and retarded ignition so the flames can heat up catalyst quickly. Used on many petrol DI engines, but, so far was only used when coolant temperature at cold start is between 18 and 30 degree of Celsius on VAG engines. Few more conditions applies, what is important, this phase last only up to one minute, surely not longer. Known as HSP (HOSP) phase used across the automotive.

What is curious, VAG/Skoda addmits in TPI 2050744/6 that this engine jerking behaviour is present during warm-up phase until coolant temperature of approx. 70 degree of Celsius while slightly accelerating and/or decelerating ...

 

http://aa-boschww-uk.resource.bosch.com/media/__uk/workshop_world/ww/news_special_workshopworld_1/pdf/sms_tips_technology_2014_nr76_en_58954.pdf

https://www.cambustion.com/sites/default/files/applications/HFR500/HFR09v01 GDI cold start catalyst heating strategy combustion instability.pdf

 

Technical product information 2029868_1.pdf

Technical product information 2038459_1.pdf

 

What I know from EA888 Gen2 engine, internal EGR can influence very badly running the engine smoothly at revs little higher above iddle. It does exactly what Abu wrote, but it does not stabilize, you can see that on Camshaft Adjustment values too. Well, EA211 EVO is very new,  I guess it can not have yet issue with carbon deposits on inlet valves, so it could be the volume of exhaust fumes recirculated by internal EGR technic which makes running this engine so instable on first gear. Without log we can only estimate what really causes that behaviour, which some says is there and other says it is not ...

 

Definitely such complicated timing system with minimal tolerances when adjusting it is nothing for me. I wonder, how this system work with timing belt elongation, valve springs and hydraulic tappets weariness etc. ...

 

Edited 16 January, 20197 yr by rayx

The 70*oC coolant thing is another VW Group nonsense though as people have started cars engines and idled until the Coolant has reached 90*oC not just indicated but actual and still had the issue. The Oil will not be at 50*oC, or if it is not near 70-92 *OC,  but the coolant is.

With VW Group you just have to take crap they spout until are forced to revise that and spin some more.

Is this issue effecting the 1.5tsi engine married to the DSG box or is it just the  1.5tsi with the manual box that's effected ? I'm in the market for a new Superb and may have to amend my shopping list as necessary! 

 Anyone out there with a 1.5tsi in a superb with the kangarooing issue that can comment? 

     Thanks. 

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

The 70*oC coolant thing is another VW Group nonsense though as people have started cars engines and idled until the Coolant has reached 90*oC not just indicated but actual and still had the issue. The Oil will not be at 50*oC, or if it is not near 70-92 *OC,  but the coolant is.

With VW Group you just have to take crap they spout until are forced to revise that and spin some more.

Correct, 400 miles to Slough and back and mine was still skipping down the 20 mph section near me.

 

Their latest spin was that the issue 'should get better as the temperature rises.....but in all cases may not'  

I escalated this morning as I felt I was getting nowhere, I did get a call back and they have offered to take it in to a different dealership for further testing as the issue is still present when warm, they suggested perhaps I have another issue in addition to the 'cold judder' one. 

 

Sounds a waste of time but I'll try anything, but there are a number of us with the issue still present when warm surely its related?

 

 

8 minutes ago, TheRealExile said:

I escalated this morning as I felt I was getting nowhere, I did get a call back and they have offered to take it in to a different dealership for further testing as the issue is still present when warm, they suggested perhaps I have another issue in addition to the 'cold judder' one. 

 

Sounds a waste of time but I'll try anything, but there are a number of us with the issue still present when warm surely its related?

 

 

I haven't allowed them to waste our time since taking delivery 355 days ago.They are PROFESSIONAL LIARS and will spin any yarn to pacify you and others that play along with this game. Only chance you have is reject it under 1,000 miles and less than 30 days using the money back guarantee offered by all Skoda dealers. I did this once successfully when they sold me an absolute LEMON, MK1 Superb back in 2005 though.

Rayx, what you say makes a lot of sense to me, however, I cannot explain why this issue occurs only in 1st gear and not others? Also, if you let go the clutch completely without touching the accelerator pedal the kangarooing does not occur anymore - you can accelerate then without issues. At least this is how my car behaves.

People here state that in reverse also doesn't do it.

What is the relationship between 1st gear, clutch and accelerator?

Edited 16 January, 20197 yr by Abu

it happens in 2nd and 3rd just to a lesser extent for me

10 minutes ago, Abu said:

Rayx, what you say makes a lot of sense to me, however, I cannot explain why this issue occurs only in 1st gear and not others? Also, if you let go the clutch completely without touching the accelerator pedal the kangarooing does not occur anymore - you can accelerate then without issues. At least this is how my car behaves.

People here state that in reverse also doesn't do it.

What is the relationship between 1st gear, clutch and accelerator?

This what I do when pulling out of our drive, let the clutch out in 1st gear (don't go near the gas pedal) and pop it straight into 2nd gear no issues. However if I have to pull away uphill or from traffic lights/roundabout then I deploy the 2,000 revs method.

56 minutes ago, TheRealExile said:

I escalated this morning as I felt I was getting nowhere, I did get a call back and they have offered to take it in to a different dealership for further testing as the issue is still present when warm, they suggested perhaps I have another issue in addition to the 'cold judder' one. 

 

Sounds a waste of time but I'll try anything, but there are a number of us with the issue still present when warm surely its related?

 

 

6 months down the line for me and the “Karoqeroo syndrome” is still ever present. Hot, cold, eco mode, normal mode, sport mode, normal fuel, Shell v Power fuel. Makes no difference.

39 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

This what I do when pulling out of our drive, let the clutch out in 1st gear (don't go near the gas pedal) and pop it straight into 2nd gear no issues. However if I have to pull away uphill or from traffic lights/roundabout then I deploy the 2,000 revs method.

Me too!! Seems the only way to eliminate this “characteristic”. 

Just now, AMC150 said:

Me too!! Seems the only way to eliminate this “characteristic”. 

Clutch it and boot it!  I drove over 200 miles today 10 mins in Tescos on the way home and it bounced down the road. Yesterday I had another near stall or loss of power in 2nd gear while pulling away from a junction. That's the real worry for me

59 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

This what I do when pulling out of our drive, let the clutch out in 1st gear (don't go near the gas pedal) and pop it straight into 2nd gear no issues. However if I have to pull away uphill or from traffic lights/roundabout then I deploy the 2,000 revs method.

That is exactly how I pull off when it’s cold, clutch out straight into 2nd, more difficult to do when warm and depending on how the engine is behaving, I’ve just been in stop start traffic for 30 mins and it was a nightmare, even my wife in the passenger seat asked ‘What is the car doing?’ It’s so unpredictable and annoying, I’m going into Skoda next week to see if they have any news on a fix, last time they hadn’t heard of any issues with this engine at all 

I cancelled my karoq order and got my deposit back, phew.  I am now awaiting a mazda cx5 which has radar cruise control to follow the car in front.  Wonder if I am following a kangarooing karoq what the mazda will do, Lol.

25 minutes ago, PiKaroq said:

I cancelled my karoq order and got my deposit back, phew.  I am now awaiting a mazda cx5 which has radar cruise control to follow the car in front.  Wonder if I am following a kangarooing karoq what the mazda will do, Lol.

 

A word of advice regarding Mazda paintwork and corrosion protection. As the owner of an 2007 MX5 and assuming that the CX5 is treated the same as the MX5s I can advise that you need to get the car underside treated with a good corrosion protection, Waxoyl or Dinitrol or similar.  Based on the experience of owners of older MX5s like myself the owners of new MX5s have found that there are large areas underneath that have not been treated with any corrosion protection. Also Mazda paint is very thin and soft and needs careful polishing and treatment, do not use any abrasive compounds but get the paintwork sealed with a polymer sealant and keep well waxed

1 hour ago, Markyj said:

That is exactly how I pull off when it’s cold, clutch out straight into 2nd, more difficult to do when warm and depending on how the engine is behaving, I’ve just been in stop start traffic for 30 mins and it was a nightmare, even my wife in the passenger seat asked ‘What is the car doing?’ It’s so unpredictable and annoying, I’m going into Skoda next week to see if they have any news on a fix, last time they hadn’t heard of any issues with this engine at all 

 

I find that interesting - the bit about straight into 2nd. My Karoq has the DSG and from rest, the car wastes no time in 1st gear - it changes up to 2nd very fast. It almost seems like 1st is not even being used. except perhaps on a steep hill. 

It's odd....you would have thought the lessons from the 70's and early 80's had been learnt, MOT tester friend told me lots of modern cars look great up top but are rotting underneath still, checked and the Wife's Corsa is the same no protection on the subframe whatsoever, gave the whole lot a coat of bilt hamber and some thick black chassis paint, should fingers crossed be good for years.

34 minutes ago, TheRealExile said:

It's odd....you would have thought the lessons from the 70's and early 80's had been learnt, MOT tester friend told me lots of modern cars look great up top but are rotting underneath still, checked and the Wife's Corsa is the same no protection on the subframe whatsoever, gave the whole lot a coat of bilt hamber and some thick black chassis paint, should fingers crossed be good for years.

 

I agree - you still fine modern cars rotting away, they just quietly vanish come MOT time.

 

The problem with thick chassis paint - if rust not sorted it can behind the paint protection and sometime it can cause rust to accelerate. Underneath one way I used to protect a resoration was to thoroughly paint the whole area in clean new oil before painting  a mixture of waxoyl and waxoyl underseal on top. The whole lot mixes well and if there were any remnants/seams of rust the oil soaked into it before then being protected. Inside chassis etc - I used a mix of clean oil/ wayoxyl with a home made device to splatter it down inside chassis menbers/ sills etc...

 

A couple of years ago I helped someone re-commission a car that had been stored but years ago had been restored by myself (1968 Morris 1000 restored in 1988). One of the big issues was the fuel tank was in a bad way (internal rust due to latent heat of evaporation causing condensation - this had been  a big issue for me on many cars!) so it took a while to get it going (new tank, fuel line ,electric  fuel pump, oil, filter, point, plugs, leads, dizzy top, condenser etc...) BUT I'm pleased to report that when changing the fuel tank and pipe I got my hands filthy - the underbody protection I'd put on in way back1988 was still tacky!!

 

Fast forward many decades - depending on what you are doing then:-

• Body rustproofing - Dinitrol
• Subframes/suspension parts, axles etc - Owatrol oil (amazing stuff!)

Edited 16 January, 20197 yr by bigjohn