1.5 SEL first gear issue.

[Ootohere]

the E-Brake (parking Brake) and AutoHold are different things the Stop / Start that helped get manufactures sometimes Implausible / Irregular C02 g/km figures especially if often that is not functioning because of Temperatures or Load on the battery are fails if having them operating makes a car drive like crap.

 

Vorsprung Durch Technik is as simple as VW needs to get a grip if Engine Management and Software is about getting WLTP results and figures and not really how a car will drive once in the showrooms then with customers buying them.

http://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-daimler-brace-new-wltp-headache

 

Edited 6 February, 2019 by Skoffski

[AMC150]

2 hours ago, Breezy said:

That is an interesting point about stop/start and parking brake and no doubt an issue for some, but if that was the main cause of the behaviour at Junctions and roundabouts would it not affect other engines, particularly the lower powered 1.0ltr?

 

 

 

 

 

Tried it this morning in my manual. No difference!

[DaveW25]

On 05/02/2019 at 18:49, rayx said:

 

 

This might explain bit more what could be the root cause of this kangaroo mystery

Used to lower NOx values as major task of valve overlap, increased production of PM particles is now managed by the GPF/OPF filter ...

 

taken from pre EVO engines same EA211 family

SSP-511_The_New_EA211_Petrol_Engine_Family.pdf

Very interesting stuff rayx!

I believe this is for all ea211 engines including the old 1.4 (which is fine on my old golf)

I can't find anything specific on the new 1.5 engine, but I agree the GPF/OPF particle filter added Sep18? is the main difference.

This is designed to occasionally 'regen' (clean?) itself at low rpm, low load - precisely the conditions where I occasionally lose power for several seconds.

Any more thoughts?

[Stevieweevie]

The HonestJohn comment section with 1.5 engine issue article has lots of replies from owners and all pointers aim towards a software update to fix this but with no ETA, irrespective of brand / dealer acknowledgment level of the problem. Seems to be as reported in this thread, variable, ranging from “not aware of any problems” to “aware and awaiting a fix, we’ll loan you a replacement vehicle”.

 

Whatever the case may be, you would like to think that given the ubiquity of this engine, and it’s importance within the stable of vehicles using it, that VAG would be getting the ECU software engineers to pull out all the stops and make this an absolute priority. The longer this goes on for, the more traction and attention this will gain. It does not reflect well on VAG or it’s brands in terms of candour post emissions gate scandal or really with respect to valuing customers and their experiences. It is not something that is going to go away if ignored and will only get worse and more prevalent as more and more 1.5 manual units sell through and get driven. I find it utterly baffling that a company with such a recent huge blemish on their reputation and integrity would approach a situation like this with such apparent ineptitude. More people at VW group need to be sacked. There’s still some necrotic tissue there methinks.

[JeremyGi]

I am thinking of changing my 1.5 petrol for a 2.0 diesel as the car itself is perfect for my needs, no easy decision but the kangarooing in last week's snow was very unsettling, mind you it did prove just how much better winter tyres are.

[shyVRS245]

6 minutes ago, JeremyGi said:

I am thinking of changing my 1.5 petrol for a 2.0 diesel as the car itself is perfect for my needs, no easy decision but the kangarooing in last week's snow was very unsettling, mind you it did prove just how much better winter tyres are.

Snow in Cornwall whatever next leaving the EU.

[rayx]

10 hours ago, DaveW25 said:

Very interesting stuff rayx!

I believe this is for all ea211 engines including the old 1.4 (which is fine on my old golf)

I can't find anything specific on the new 1.5 engine, but I agree the GPF/OPF particle filter added Sep18? is the main difference.

This is designed to occasionally 'regen' (clean?) itself at low rpm, low load - precisely the conditions where I occasionally lose power for several seconds.

Any more thoughts?

 

You can look at this SSP here

SSP-511_The_New_EA211_Petrol_Engine_Family.pdf

 

It is complex issue, but it all has simple origin. Nature of all engines burning lean (diesels, DI petrols) is they can be very effective, but producing high NOx values. So manufacturer must fight it down according emmision norms.

NOx storage catalyst were likely not that effective and costed much, no SCR catalyst + agent is introduced for DI petrols as diesels already have, so the only way to lower NOx at TSI and all other DI petrols is Exhaust Gas Recirculation, either external one done by EGR valve, or internal one done by variable timing capable of valves overlap.

 

Variable valve timing leads to:
- very effective inner exhaust gas recirculation, whereby combustion temperature and nitrogen oxides are reduced, and
- also improved torque development.

On FSI (=TFSI=TSI etc) engines, a high amount of exhaust gas recirculation is necessary to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions.

In order that the amount of exhaust gas can be pushed up to its limit, it has to be calculated precisely.

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/454127-18tsi-blowing-black-smoke/?do=findComment&comment=5106558

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/266114-18tsi-and-20tsi-engine-failures/?do=findComment&comment=5099272

 

The problem is, when NOx are lowered by EGR system, this leads to increased PM particles and PN standard values. So diesels had to be fitted with DPF, but DI petrols had not that strict limits, so nobody cared until recent few years ... Now DI petrols must have GPF / OPF filters mounted on exhausts as diesels have their DPF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars

 

So I can imagine, that latest EA211 EVO 1.5 TSI engines push their NOx values to the lowest limits as all DI petrols must do, which means high valve overlap (internal EGR) must be applied when possible. So this could be the root cause for the jerking engine, especially when cold, but same can happen when warm. I am sure that WLTP test plays here the role too, NEDC test could hide something as did on EA189 diesels ...

 

Therefore would be very intersting to see data log of Camshafts Adjustment values from engines with this kangaroo jerking mystery, I guess emissions have the priority, driving comfort and engine smoothness were not that stressed out ...

 

I already linked here videos and info how must be initialy adjusted the timing on these beast, had never seen such complex system on mass produced "people" cars ...

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/446820-15-sel-first-gear-issue/?do=findComment&comment=5175860

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/458520-problems-with-15-tsi-across-vag-group/?do=findComment&comment=5176452

 

Edited 7 February, 2019 by rayx

[DaveW25]

Thanks rayx, this is what I have been reading. I'm now more interested in the GPF as it seems particularly linked to my problem

(power loss not kangarooing). Moreover it seems to have improved with my latest fill of 98 RON Shell unleaded - less need for GPF regen?

My basic knowledge or GPF regen is from  https://www.infineuminsight.com/articles/passenger-cars/gasoline-particulate-filters/

It occurs on decelerations or by generating a lean fuel/air mixture to increase exhaust temp. Could this be happening at idle and overriding my throttle request? A very basic control error I know, but it fits my problem.

[Jezza4567]

23 hours ago, fidelio said:

Not a chance to be that. the kangarooing is active after you 've released clutch and car has started rolling, so not that unfotunately. 

 

I think it could be a combination of

things (sensitive accelerator, rpm dropoff from 1st to 2nd & autobrake release).

 

Do you not find that the accelator is very sensitive at speeds below 20mph in 1st but also 2nd gear, especially from cold?  

 

Remember when you first learned to drive and what caused kangarooing? Coming up too quickly on the clutch and not increase revs enough as it bites and revs drop.

 

Trying to get this right quickly is hard (at a junction) with a sensitive accelerator, gear ratio that drops revs a lot from 1st to 2nd; made worse if the parking brake is sticking (remember what happend when you left a manual parking brake on & pulled away with low revs - stall). 

 

I can stop the kangarooing by being delicate with accelator & clutch when pulling away (not acceptable still & lots of adjustment of driving position was required).

 

I can avoid enging stalls by ensuring I have +1800rpm when pulling away and also changing up to 2nd (not acceptable as I've never had to pay so much attention to rpm with other cars). 

 

However, if the parking brake does not release immediately I need more revs than anticipated and can also experience a jolt. Not great if I'm trying to be sensitive and exact with accelator & clutch. 

[Ootohere]

If anyone in the UK is using Shell V power nitro+ then that iss 99 Ron minimum like Tesco momentum 99 or Costco Super unleaded. The other sellers of Super unleaded have 97RON minimum. 

[DaveW25]

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

If anyone in the UK is using Shell V power nitro+ then that iss 99 Ron minimum like Tesco momentum 99 or Costco Super unleaded. The other sellers of Super unleaded have 97RON minimum.

Sorry, I used to use the old optimax 98 RON, you're correct  I used the shell V-power 99 RON. I'll try another fill, and then go back to normal 95? RON just to check if loss of power instances increase. Mpg is increasing slightly, but that may be due to engine running in still.

[Apprentice]

https://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/car-fuel-types/

 

The local rural filling stations near me (10 miles and more) don't supply the higher octane fuels.

[agedbriar]

3 hours ago, Jezza4567 said:

 

I think it could be a combination of

things (sensitive accelerator, rpm dropoff from 1st to 2nd & autobrake release).

 

Do you not find that the accelator is very sensitive at speeds below 20mph in 1st but also 2nd gear, especially from cold?  

 

Remember when you first learned to drive and what caused kangarooing? Coming up too quickly on the clutch and not increase revs enough as it bites and revs drop.

 

Trying to get this right quickly is hard (at a junction) with a sensitive accelerator, gear ratio that drops revs a lot from 1st to 2nd; made worse if the parking brake is sticking (remember what happend when you left a manual parking brake on & pulled away with low revs - stall). 

 

I can stop the kangarooing by being delicate with accelator & clutch when pulling away (not acceptable still & lots of adjustment of driving position was required).

 

I can avoid enging stalls by ensuring I have +1800rpm when pulling away and also changing up to 2nd (not acceptable as I've never had to pay so much attention to rpm with other cars). 

 

However, if the parking brake does not release immediately I need more revs than anticipated and can also experience a jolt. Not great if I'm trying to be sensitive and exact with accelator & clutch. 

Consider the fact that no one gets kangarooing when starting in reverse.

[rayx]

Well, consider the fact nowadays engines are not just mecanical machines, the ECU management can do great magic, who knows how the software reacts and manages the engine when R is used, does not matter if on manual or DSG.

That´s the same as with the left outside mirror folding down and closing the flap at clima to avoid emissions getting into car when reversing ...

Edited 7 February, 2019 by rayx

[Abu]

There is an interesting idea posted by someone on the T-Roc forum, I am not sure whether he is present on this one as well. I find this post has a strong logic behind it and, if proven to be true, not very encouraging for all sufferes out here.

https://www.trocforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=266&start=390#p7018

Quote:

"The 1.5 TSi uses a miller cycle motor, the engine was designed to provide the economy and torque of a Diesel engine from a petrol engine. Simply put, on the combustion stroke, the inlet valve is opened to increase capacity, but opening the inlet value would cause loss of compression and car would stall. They get around this by spinning up the turbo to create back pressure to keep the compression during combustion. Problem with the manual is when you pull away the revs drop, the drop in revs causes the turbo to stop spooling, the car tries to stall, but the anti stall prevents this and the result “kangarooing” this problem is across the VAG group, Audi, Skod, Seat and VW. The challenge is that this is not an easy fix, when I rejected my car, VW Germany eventually acknowledged that there is a known problem with the manual 1.5. The only logical fix would be to electrically spool the turbo to keep it spinning at low rpm. "

[shyVRS245]

5 minutes ago, Abu said:

There is an interesting idea posted by someone on the T-Roc forum, I am not sure whether he is present on this one as well. I find this post has a strong logic behind it and, if proven to be true, not very encouraging for all sufferes out here.

https://www.trocforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=266&start=390#p7018

Quote:

"The 1.5 TSi uses a miller cycle motor, the engine was designed to provide the economy and torque of a Diesel engine from a petrol engine. Simply put, on the combustion stroke, the inlet valve is opened to increase capacity, but opening the inlet value would cause loss of compression and car would stall. They get around this by spinning up the turbo to create back pressure to keep the compression during combustion. Problem with the manual is when you pull away the revs drop, the drop in revs causes the turbo to stop spooling, the car tries to stall, but the anti stall prevents this and the result “kangarooing” this problem is across the VAG group, Audi, Skod, Seat and VW. The challenge is that this is not an easy fix, when I rejected my car, VW Germany eventually acknowledged that there is a known problem with the manual 1.5. The only logical fix would be to electrically spool the turbo to keep it spinning at low rpm. "

Or give it some gas pedal which tends to eliminate the issue for me.

[trek]

The thing is that 1.5tsi 150hp version doesn't use miller cycle. Only 130hp version does.  We are here as well as in mentioned troc forum talking about 150hp version.

[xman]

8 minutes ago, Abu said:

There is an interesting idea posted by someone on the T-Roc forum, I am not sure whether he is present on this one as well. I find this post has a strong logic behind it and, if proven to be true, not very encouraging for all sufferes out here.

https://www.trocforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=266&start=390#p7018

Quote:

"The 1.5 TSi uses a miller cycle motor, the engine was designed to provide the economy and torque of a Diesel engine from a petrol engine. Simply put, on the combustion stroke, the inlet valve is opened to increase capacity, but opening the inlet value would cause loss of compression and car would stall. They get around this by spinning up the turbo to create back pressure to keep the compression during combustion. Problem with the manual is when you pull away the revs drop, the drop in revs causes the turbo to stop spooling, the car tries to stall, but the anti stall prevents this and the result “kangarooing” this problem is across the VAG group, Audi, Skod, Seat and VW. The challenge is that this is not an easy fix, when I rejected my car, VW Germany eventually acknowledged that there is a known problem with the manual 1.5. The only logical fix would be to electrically spool the turbo to keep it spinning at low rpm. "

Uninformed tripe.

The 150ps version of the 1.5tsi runs exclusively in "Otto cycle". Trawl back through this thread to find the official vw designer statements.

[rayx]

12 minutes ago, Abu said:

Simply put, on the combustion stroke, the inlet valve is opened to increase capacity, but opening the inlet value would cause loss of compression and car would stall.

 

absolute nonsense ... 96kW DACA engine code Miller, 110kW DADA engine code Otto, variable valve timing is not variable valve lift ...

 

[silver1011]

Who's gonna correct the guy on the T-Roc forum then 

[Boxerdog1]

Fascinating debate with many opinions evolving but as yet no answer (sound like something familiar ? )    - I owned a 1.5tsi  DSG Karoq for a month  between my 2 Superb 280 Sportlines ( long story previously narrated on Karoq Forum) .  Apart from main reason for returning to the Big Beast  I did experience a bit of hesitancy / flat spot at low revs on the 7 speed dry DSG which I put down to fact it was a different type of DSG vs my previous (and now current) 6 speed wet one .  On reflection a familiy member had a 2013 1.4 tsi 7 speed DSG Golf which I drove a few times which was pretty smooth so possibly there may well be ECU issues to be fixed soon .... certainly hope so as apart from that the Karoq is a cracking mid range SUV . 

[shyVRS245]

20 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

Who's gonna correct the guy on the T-Roc forum then 

Seems you volunteered for the task. Miller, Otto, Bicycle who cares as long as it starts and stops, SWMBO is happy.

[silver1011]

You lost me on Otto 

[VAGCF]

I vote for Skoffski to do it. 

[rayx]

http://www.auto.cz/test-skoda-superb-combi-style-1-5-tsi-act-leta-na-jeho-pozici-nic-nemeni-127475

page 2  "Motor, jizdni vlastnosti"

 

For a normal ride simply enough

The power of 110 kW (or the old-fashioned 150 hp) is nothing special today. In the case of the superb, the vehicle unladen weight is 1399 kg. Rather than performance, the aggregate relies on a flat torque curve with a peak of 250 N. m (that motor provides from 1500 to 3500 rpm).

Departures from the site are generally not the strongest aspect of this motorized superb. Despite the manufacturer's specifications, when it takes the car from a standstill to 100 km/h 8.8 seconds. You feel that this is two seconds longer. If you concentrate, you may notice a slight hesitation on the first meters of the starting-up before the unit takes over.

 

We also saw the jerking of the engine during the weekly coexistence. It took place after a day's parking space in underground garages, where the temperature is about fifteen degrees and it looked similar to the way you drive with a car with all-wheel drive and a worn hardy clutch shaft. The Superb, of course, had a front wheel drive, which is in conjunction with the 1.5 TSI as the only one offered (as opposed to the 2.0 TSI, which is only connected to the wheel drive for the change). Surprisingly, after starting the engine after an stall to the freezing car played nothing such that.