1.8TSI and 2.0TSI engine failures

[Norco]

I would agree but mine was on variable when I bought it (16k miles) and had been on fixed or 10k miles ever since.

[xman]

Those camchain engines were a design and quality abortion.

 

Now you have it sorted, if you are DIY capable, I would change oil (not Castrol) every 5k, oil filters every 10k. Buy a Pela extractor if you can't be arsed to get under the car.

 

Future newer designed engines aren't guaranteed not to suffer from design or quality issues, their suppliers are always cutting corners to save cash and VAG don't keep on top of them. IMO they make too many models and variants and can't see the wood for the trees.

 

 

[Ootohere]

IMO,

10,000 mile oil and filter change intervals and VW502 so 5w 40 FS will be fine is a 10,000 mile or more a year driver.

 

 

 

[TheClient]

15 hours ago, Norco said:

 

If I could go back then I am still not sure I would have the new kit fitted as a preventative measure.

 

 

I had interpreted that part as you meaning with hindsight and knowing what you now know, you are still unsure you [whether you would] have it done preventatively. Bear in mind others reading this look to recent posts for advice. Apologies if I have misinterpreted.

Edited 29 November, 2018 by TheClient

[Norco]

20 hours ago, TheClient said:

 

I had interpreted that part as you meaning with hindsight and knowing what you now know, you are still unsure you [whether you would] have it done preventatively. Bear in mind others reading this look to recent posts for advice. Apologies if I have misinterpreted.

 

I don't know why you are making an issue of this. That is effectively what I am saying. While it did happen to me and it was an expensive pain, I am saying that the risk of it happening is still low enough to make it a tough decision to spend a not insignificant amount of money on a fix that is not guaranteed to be solve a problem that may never happen (lets not forget they have had 4 versions of these so far). 

 

Of course if there was a count down on the dash that said at 54k miles your timing chain tensioner will fail but there isnt. Let's not forget this is not a serviceable part. In the same garage as mine there were cars from every major brand with timing chain issues. 

[xman]

40 minutes ago, Norco said:

 Let's not forget this is not a serviceable part. In the same garage as mine there were cars from every major brand with timing chain issues. 

 

When I bought the 1st Fabia back in 2004, I thought, great.....timing chain....no more ripoff 40k/4yr cambelts. But with the 1.2 tsi Octavia in 2011, started to realise that timing chains had their weaknesses too.

 

Having said that, VAG have been fitting sub par tensioners for chain and cambelt since time began. And that's a real problem issue with VAG camshaft drives. Who knows if the latest ones are any better?

 

I suspect lack of frequent oil changes (ie long life servicing) is a common factor in all marques timing chain problems.

 

And maybe german brands arent really interested in make cars that last longer than 8 to 10 years, i.e. is it a deliberate policy?

 

Edited 30 November, 2018 by xman

[Babs]

I've got a 2012 vRS TSI. Took it to a well-respected indy near me who've said I have the latest tensioner in there. My car was registered late March, so built Jan-Feb probably. No sign of any replacement in the history I have.

 

I'm just a bit paranoid I guess, but could it actually be the latest 'K' revision in there despite this one apparently not being available till May?

[Babs]

Crawled around on my back this morning, quite simple to get to actually, just a bit fiddly.

 

It would appear that I do indeed have the latest revision in there!

[Nuclear_Jules]

After new pistons, con rods, timing chain and tensioner and a new turbo it’s stopped using a litre of oil in 300 miles. 

The skoda dealer paid for all the work as I was still in my 3 month warranty.

[Blueglue]

CAM INTAKE AT 5.9 DEGREES!

 

So my pre FL 2009 Octavia vRS TSI keep getting a misfire @ 5k revs on cylinder 2 and ive checked fuel pressure, swapped coil packs, plugs etc.. It also looks as though the previous owner unbeknown to me was fighting engine management light issues as they had spent around 2k at the dealer in the lasrt 12 months and had inlet manifold, throttle bodies, PCV and all sorts replaced so at least all of these have been diagnosed for me.

 

now ive been on VCDS and I get the following specs for my cam position on measuring block:-

 

Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
  840 /min  Engine Speed (G28)
  5.9 %  Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
  28.0°KW  Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
  28.0°KW  Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)
 

 

Does this mean my cam chain is almost 6 degrees out?!?!? if it is could this be the reason for my cylinder 2 misfire.

 

Ive read through this thread it should be +/- 0-2 for good 2-4 for ok and 4+ is bad?

 

Many thanks

Tom

 

[Rhodri]

Tom, I believe it is engine measuring block 93 that is relevant for timing chain stretch on these TSI engines.

See the post below and the video which is for similar VW / AUDI engines..

I recently bought an OBDEleven scanner which has shown my value as -0.66 degrees which I am very happy with !

I know I should get the tensioner done but it looks like very little stretch for now.

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/432610-timing-chain-vcds-measurement/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTOGPo4IsE

 

[davetheosteopath]

7 hours ago, Rhodri said:

I recently bought an OBDEleven scanner which has shown my value as -0.66 degrees which I am very happy with !

 

Greetings!

 

Do you have any reference material/ web links on using OBDEleven for this task?  I asked their support, but they just suggested a troll through other forums, - no specific help.  I haven't really had time to research it further yet.  There seems to be a host of things possible with OBD, but where and how to look is the question?  

 

Doh! Sorry, just had time to review the You tube link which uses OBDEleven.- Don't worry.

 

Kind Regards,

Edited 17 December, 2018 by davetheosteopath
Doh!

[Blueglue]

7 hours ago, Rhodri said:

Tom, I believe it is engine measuring block 93 that is relevant for timing chain stretch on these TSI engines.

See the post below and the video which is for similar VW / AUDI engines..

I recently bought an OBDEleven scanner which has shown my value as -0.66 degrees which I am very happy with !

I know I should get the tensioner done but it looks like very little stretch for now.

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/432610-timing-chain-vcds-measurement/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTOGPo4IsE

 

 

 

looks as though 93 is just as bad anyway.....gah!

Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
  720 /min  Engine Speed (G28)
  12.8 %  Engine Load
  -5.29°  Phase Position Bank 1 Intake

[kirkynut]

On 29/11/2018 at 11:32, xman said:

 

One common theme emerges from many of these engine failure threads.

 

Change the oil often.

 

Vag have shown they are incapable of designing a robust, abuse capable chain drive and tensioner.

 

They also do stupid things like the oil control rings with microscopic oil return holes.

 

Frequent oil changes are key to survival in these cases.

 

Also, I'm increasingly of the opinion that thinner oils 0w-30 etc would help here, rather than the thicker 5w-40 recommended by Offski.  Just think of where the oil needs to go and flow and clean, with chains - into the pivot links, that's where the wear is, oil control rings through very small drain holes. Flow is important to stop temperature build up locally, and thin oil gets into places thick oil can't.

 

504 spec according to the lubrizol chart is fundamentally better than the older 502 spec. But good quality full synthetic oil is even more vital and this is where I suspect Castrol/old Quantum lets the side down with their definition/manipulation of the word synthetic.

 

Quantum is now Fuchs, which possibly is a better quality oil.

 

 

As I've been looking at buying an 89k Vrs that's just had a new timing chain, tensioner and guides I've been reading a great deal about this.

 

The catastrophic engine failure comes from the tensioner failing. It does this by its teeth seemingly snapping off. It has repeatedly occurred when the engine is started from cold, cold the next day. This is caused by a casting issue and or the material used not being up to the job. 

 

The reason it can happen on a cold start up is that the failing metal tooth has cooled and cracked as it has done so.

 

There's also evidence of the teeth wearing. At which point slip can occur at any time.

 

Would more frequent oil changes solve this? I doubt it. It might prolong the inevitable. 

 

Why do some cars suffer it and others not? I suggest that it boils down to the quality of the casting of the teeth and of the metal used on that day of production. So in effect, there could just be some bad batches. More don't fail than those that do, so it can't be that many.

 

Timing chains also stretch. More frequent oil changes might lengthen their life but this is metal fatigue, not wear. Heat cycles are more likely a factor, so whether it does short journeys to suffer more heat cycles or long journeys to add the miles without as many heat cycles . It's the cooling effect of the oil aswell as the lubrication that plays a part here.

 

I would stick to the original viscosity of the oil but more frequent oil changes might keep the passages and drain holes clear for the oil to pass through. I change oil at 6k miles regardless of the manufacturer recommendation.

 

The symptoms on the car we've considered buying were an Engine Management Light and a code regarding cam timing being out. This would have been a stretched chain at 89k miles.

 

With tensioners failing at 30-40k miles, as per the posts in the first pages of this thread, the question that I need the answer to is have VAG got it right with the latest tensioner revision?

 

If none of the latest ones have failed I'm confident to buy the car we've seen. We'll never do enough miles in its lifetime for us to worry about timing chain stretch again.

 

Kirkynut 

Edited 23 December, 2018 by kirkynut

[Babs]

The latest revision is a completely different style, works in a different way to the older ones.

[kirkynut]

43 minutes ago, Babs said:

The latest revision is a completely different style, works in a different way to the older ones.

Cheers for that. So as long as it was a genuine tensioner it should be golden!

 

Kirkynut 

[Blueglue]

Right i got bored over Christmas and went searching for parts.

Before anyone mentions i know eBay is a minefield, but i looked up the stores and associations and these all seem pretty good and all paid by paypal which works well for the buyer. Im not sure what a dealer would charge and with all of the older revisions flooding the marketplace i didn't want my local garage just buying whatever the supplier threw at them.

 

Are the following items correct?

 

Genuine VAG - Upper hydraulic tensioner 06K109467K = £59.59 (inc import & delivery from USA)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Audi-VW-2-0L-L4-Outer-Upper-Engine-Timing-Chain-Tensioner-Genuine-06K109467K/361576524517
Genuine VAG - Lower screw type tensioner (06H109467AR), Upper chain (06K109158BE latest revision?) = £145.78 (inc delivery from DE)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-AUDI-SEAT-SKODA-VW-Kettenspanner-Audi-A3-VW-Golf-06H109467AR/162958800406

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-AUDI-SEAT-SKODA-VW-Steuerkette-Kette-VW-Golf-06K109158BE/382395731892
Genuine VAG - Lower chain 06K109158 (listed Audi that seems to drop the A, but possibly older number?) = £53.20

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Camshaft-timing-chain-VW-Audi-Skoda-Seat-2-0-TFSi-various-06K109158-Genuine-Audi-/121725483013
FEBI BILSTEIN - Upper chain guide (06H109469T) = £11

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Timing-Chain-Guide-for-SKODA-OCTAVIA-2-0-05-13-BWA-1Z-Petrol-Febi/372457962335

Genuine VAG - All other chain guides (06H109469AP) 06H109509Q, 06H109469AQ, 06H109509P & 06H109469AH) = £30

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Genuine-Volkswagen-Audi-Various-2-0-FSI-Cam-Chain-Guide-Rail-Set/263650473722

 

Anything missing?

 

total = 299.57

 

[Babs]

Why not just go to your local TPS?

[xman]

1 hour ago, Babs said:

Why not just go to your local TPS?

Because most TPS will not serve the public?

[Babs]

1 minute ago, xman said:

Because most TPS will not serve the public?

 

I've never had a problem!

[Blueglue]

37 minutes ago, xman said:

Because most TPS will not serve the public?

 

Yes sadly even being a director of a LTD company doesnt get me in the door at my two nearest TPS centres. Admittedly its nothing to do with automotive trade.....hehe

Seems they like to play God. 

[Blueglue]

20 hours ago, Blueglue said:

 

Yes sadly even being a director of a LTD company doesnt get me in the door at my two nearest TPS centres. Admittedly its nothing to do with automotive trade.....hehe

Seems they like to play God. 

 

Just found out Skoda-parts.com does the kit! Ordered it through them.

 

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/06k109158adsad-timing-1-8tsi-2-0tsi-skoda-27967.html

[anotherdownunder]

On 01/01/2019 at 04:39, Blueglue said:

 

Just found out Skoda-parts.com does the kit! Ordered it through them.

 

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/06k109158adsad-timing-1-8tsi-2-0tsi-skoda-27967.html

Thanks for the link. Be interesting to see how local Oz dealer compares. They said our 2012/13 (108km when bought) Octy II had 50% left on the tensioner. In the last 5k it used some 3mm oil on the rotten black dipstick. Change to Nulon 5-30 but surprised to see oil looked black due to the dipstick colour (- much different from running on Valvoline in my early days of Mini C 'S.') Dealer said as long as oil pressure o-k I shouldn't worry. There is a very slight 'mechanical - chain (?)' noise on start for a few seconds, guess while oil-pressure commences building. I'm going to visit the dealer and start a few Octy's to have a listen. If they sound the same my worries will be a little reduced but still there. Amazing that I changed from running a Mitsubishi Magna for 10 years rarely checking the oil but then wifey fell in-love with the Octy when I got the Fabia.

[Dajjer]

I thought I would add my experience to the stories. I bought a 1.8TSI Octavia in 2009, with the CDAA engine. It consumed around 1.0litre oil per 1500 miles from new. Which I thought was poor but it is within the handbook specification of 0.5l/1000km. I had it serviced annually with the correct oil, and added a lot of oil between services!. I don't do a large mileage so it only reached 60,000 miles at the end of last year. However at that point the oil consumption increased substantially. I emailed a local VAG specialist, the local Skoda dealer, and also looked at changing cars as I had owned it for nine years. The independent specialist replied, sympathising with my bad luck and saying that it would probably be many thousands for a new engine as they had already done quite a few with this problem. And this would be for a car which was only worth £3k anyway. I got an automated reply from the dealer (D.M. Keith Leeds) saying somebody would get back to me in a few days, but nobody did. In the meantime I decided I would like a different car anyway so I traded it in for a Ford.

 

I won't be buying a VAG group car again, other brands have their problems but the severity of the issues with these engines just seems in a different league to anything else I've come across.

[Blueglue]

I thought some of you may find this interesting. I had my tensioner replaced on my 2009 car. I recorded a quick video of the original tensioner and was amazed with the movement on the band and you can literally flick it off with your fingernail.