The air quality in the UK is probably cleaner now than it's ever been, how is it that the experts have only recently decided that NO is a major cause. Bear in mind that we have data from the early 1970's of various pollutants and they have all decreased over that time. Back in the London smog of the fifties an estimated 4000 people died prematurely, so who dreams up these 29,000 deaths figure?

 

My father was a mechanic and worked on diesel trucks for many years, he died relatively early at 76 of emphysema, so perhaps the NO in the diesel fumes contributed to his death. Oh hang on I've just remembered he smoked from when he was 14 until he was 74.

 

You bang on how clean your Renault engined Dacia is, but Renault also makes diesel engined cars and trucks, so they are also adding to the air pollution problem.

 

If Renault are guilty of cheating emisson test like VW-Aud have admitted I have no problem with any of the car engine manufacturers facing the full weight of the law.  Renault provide petrols to Merc. PSA, Citreon-Peugoet are just about the largest provider of diesel engiines to other marques by the million in both 4 cylinder and V6 form.

 

All internal combustion engine produce some pollutants and for two decades have added some form of exhaust gas processing technology to impove the output to hopefully little more than CO2 and water.

 

Renault, with the TCE (turbo control efficiency) and others like Ford's Ecoboost produce sufficient HP from a sub one liitre engine and emissions are lower due to less mechanical wastage, frction losses, weight etc.  I would be amazed if the 10 mg/CO2 reading for the 0.9 litre gets any near the 80 mg NO limit as it could be doubled, doubled again, doubled again and only then be on the limit.

 

Those who did not program "Defeat" feature in to their software will have no worries about re-testing.  Hardware is presumably Bosch but VW can and do program the chips to giive the mappng they want (legal or in these cases illegal).  Most cars has a multiple map configuration.  TCE has standard and ECO map chosen real-time by user.  Wonder if it is tested on Standard or ECO, STD I presume.  Jaaag has Sports mode off or on.  Type S uses the US Ford Duratec engine with VVT added by Jaag.  Again presumably, hopefully tested with Sport setting.  VWs have up to 4 map settings do they not.  Hopefully all settings are tested and the highest pollutant readings reported. 

 

Perhaps the EU will require one or more of the maps to be switched off and then offer customer a trade-in to SCR models.

In conjunction to VW (and now BMW) share taking a noise dive, and the DAX of course as VW is biggest single component, on the flip size the price of platinum has risen as it is anticipated more willl be required for exhuast systems.   

Some people have mentioned health problems (because of NOx of course), asthma etc. Might be partly true but don't forget about the way people live nowadays. Driving everywhere by car, sitting the whole day in a dusty room by the computer, watching TV, no walking around in the fresh air at all. It's a very unhealthy lifestyle and I'm sure it's responsible for many cases where one blames nitrogen oxides, small particles or whatever. Don't you think so?

VW will be releasing a definitive list of all the vehicles that have the emissions problem later today, so we should know more then.

Some people have mentioned health problems (because of NOx of course), asthma etc. Might be partly true but don't forget about the way people live nowadays. Driving everywhere by car, sitting the whole day in a dusty room by the computer, watching TV, no walking around in the fresh air at all. It's a very unhealthy lifestyle and I'm sure it's responsible for many cases where one blames nitrogen oxides, small particles or whatever. Don't you think so?

 

So if you lived in London where about a third of the NO/PM2.5 related deaths occur where would you go to breath/exercise?

 

With a prevailing SW wind in the UK would you travel to the Cotswolds perhaps or the South-West England or Wales or Scotland, Islands in the Baltic, in search of clean air.

 

In Latvia you will get you air much of the year from central and eastern Europe so be getting our pollution sadly so sorry for that and hopefully we will get our act together soon.

 

Germany often moaned about sulphur in fuel giving them acid rain but NO can combine with water to give nitric acid rain in a similar way. 

When it comes to comparing light diesel vehicle manufacturers fuel consumptions figures are fairly comparable (and realistic) under ideal conditions BUT emmissions are not it now seems unless 'faked'.

I live in capital of Latvia - Riga. It's not large compared to London but anyway it can't be considered a simple town. Usually there is high traffic everywhere but somehow people manage to live. One goes for daily walking even if there are cars with all that "dangerous stuff" from exhaust gaes but one stays home and watches movies all the day. I bet that the first one haves better health.

If you are weak then you'll get all possible diseases.

 

Usually I walk about 30 minutes to work (30 back as well). That's of course in traffic peak hours and I should get all that small particles and all possible nitrogen oxides (you should be aware that high percentage of older diesels here have EGR & DPF removed or disabled). That goes for years and I don't have any problems from that. Actually I don't know anyone who does.

In the meantime my brother talked to a guy from military forces. He said that it's very hard to find new recruits among the youngsters. They all have poor health and mostly because of inactive lifestyle. So, let's not blame cars for everything that's bad.

Edited 25 September, 201510 yr by Jevpls

I've been mulling over which of our vehicles to keep when the time comes to consolidate to just the one......

I now know which one but am not prepared, well within the warranty period to ignore the inevitable hit in resale values.

I expect compensation along with millions of others I would think.

I havent got time to read the whole thread, so sorry if any of this has already been posted.

 

The VW software detected when the drive wheels were the only ones turning (ie -it was on a rolling road), and switched to super clean mode.

 

The US group that detected the fraud and reported it also reported a LOT of other makes; VW is apparently nowhere near the worst, they are just the first to admit they were cheating. The group say that according to their tests, very few cars actually meet the regualtions under real-life conditions, and that an engine cheat mode seems to be standard for nearly every car maker.

 

 

The worst offenders in ICCT’s European (PDF) study were not even VW-branded vehicles. Audi (made by Volkswagen Group), Hyundai, Renault, Opel (made by General Motors), and Volvo vehicles emitted more NOx than the other 27 vehicles in the test combined. Though not proof of active cheating, the huge gap between these automakers’ vehicles and their official test results indicates that the regulators will need to look beyond Volkswagen to solve this problem.

 

 

Full article is here http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/25/vw-isn-t-even-the-worst-polluter-tests-are-made-to-be-fooled.html

Couple of things I am struggling to get to grips with in this thread.

 

1) How anyone for a split second can possibly imagine VW are the only ones doing it.

 

2) How a seemingly well educated and highly qualified man can simply accept that when someone say x amount of people have died of 'poor air quality' that it is purely down to pollutants produced by cars bit it diesel or petrol. 

 

Bit of a tip here.  Don't believe everything you see printed in the papers or even less on the internet.  Also don't forget there are lies, damn lies and statistics!

 

How much do we just love a good scare story?  One week red wine is bad for you the next week it is good for you the same for a multitude of other things.  Listening to some of these stories they would have you believe people are dropping down dead in the streets by their thousands daily.

 

I am also not sticking up for VW or diesel and agree that if any manufacturers have been caught cheating then they should be dealt with.  Perhaps even the ever increasing and unreachable targets foisted on them should be looked at.  We should not just allow ourselves to destroy the World we live in but we should also be realistic and understand that people do lie to us.  Oh and the Government is made up of people as is the media who's job it is to sell more of their hype.

 

Just off out to walk the dog but wondering if I should wear a mask like you often see in some Countries!  Do you now what?  I am just going to take a chance on go without.  If I am not back on here soon I have probably been overcome by a VW on it's way past me!    (Other manufacturers are available.)

Chris - the only words of your post that jumped out at me at all were "Red wine is good for you"

 

So I'm off to choose a bottle for the garden this afternoon.

 

Cheers mate.

I'll be round then.  Watching the Moto GP practice.

...The VW software detected when the drive wheels were the only ones turning (ie -it was on a rolling road), and switched to super clean mode.

 

The US group that detected the fraud and reported it also reported a LOT of other makes; VW is apparently nowhere near the worst, they are just the first to admit they were cheating. The group say that according to their tests, very few cars actually meet the regualtions under real-life conditions, and that an engine cheat mode seems to be standard for nearly every car maker.

...

 

That PDF is interesting... so the biggest deviation of NOX output from EU6 standards is the engine state of "hot start" (versus cold start, constant running...). But how common is the "hot start" scenario? Er, how about every time one uses "stop start"! So "stop start" is a major contributor to NOX exceptions. Oops!

 

Any possible conclusions / end-game scenarios?

 

1. Hybrid, here we come! Electrics don't push out hot-start NOX. Of course, hybrids are not tuned to avoid hot-starts at present but its likely they can be. Sadly Peugeot just announced they are giving up on compressed-air energy retention systems so we are mostly talking electric here.  

 

2. On-car gas measurement. Sensors are pretty cheap - see Kickstarter for your own if you want to get your own data (not sure this would survive the heat of an exhaust but anyway...). Internet Of Things means your car may end up dialling DVLA and telling them how much pollution your car has output, per day. The government will charge you accordingly (thats what governments do). Hopefully they will also provide pollution use data to everyone so we can see what cars are bad and, er, less bad. Manufacturers will have to persuade you their engines are efficient AND minimal-pollution (in ALL your driving!). 

 

Is there a silver lining to this VW cloud? Yes - much greater scrutiny of pollution testing and standards. Will cost us the driving community a bit more, but will be better in the long run...

 

 

2) How a seemingly well educated and highly qualified man can simply accept that when someone say x amount of people have died of 'poor air quality' that it is purely down to pollutants produced by cars bit it diesel or petrol. 

 

 

 

That may be part of the problem - some on here seem to think they fall into the 'well educated and highly qualified' category but unfortunately remain gullible and naïve and fail to realise that they are probably not as 'highly qualified' to talk on the subject as others on here may be...

 

It's a typical trait of someone who has a chip on their shoulder and is forever trying to 'prove' themselves.

@ Totally Square: NOx emission is primarily caused by the very high peak combustion temperatures in (many) diesels, it shouldn't come as a surprise that this is less problematic during cold-start, when the whole engine is a heatsink? 

Where in that pdf is it saying that the actual starting of the engine from hot is particularly bad? Can you point me to a page number? My at-a-quick-glance impression is that there are graphs comparing 'blocks' of running from either hot-start or cold start initial conditions? That just means that the average engine temperature during the run has a significant effect on the peak combustion temperatures, and so NOx production, doesn't it?

 

Am I reading it wrong?

 

Is there a silver lining to this VW cloud? Yes - much greater scrutiny of pollution testing and standards. Will cost us the driving community a bit more, but will be better in the long run...

 

Absolutely - the outcome should be testing that reflect reality to a greater extent than is currently the situation.  In my opinion the current fracas is entirely down to the testing regime we employ - it's unrealistic and easily 'bent', so pointless.

The solution being proposed here is real time telematics being sent back to a central location. If that were to be implemented, I'd expect monitoring to spread to other areas of the car's behaviour pretty quickly. Its not really something I'd like to see. This could well be the push various states are looking for and idiots would embrace it with open arms.

 

It won't be targeting the user at first. What, are you against the environment? Do you want evil VW/BMW/Hyundai getting away with selling you a car that doesn't do what you paid it to do? ETC.

I recon the emmissions regulators would have preferred this dirty little secret to not have come out......too much work ahead for them also I suspect.

Edited 25 September, 201510 yr by Ryeman

 

 

2) How a seemingly well educated and highly qualified man can simply accept that when someone say x amount of people have died of 'poor air quality' that it is purely down to pollutants produced by cars bit it diesel or petrol. 

 

 

 

How much do we just love a good scare story?  One week red wine is bad for you the next week it is good for you the same for a multitude of other things.  Listening to some of these stories they would have you believe people are dropping down dead in the streets by their thousands daily.

 

Just off out to walk the dog but wondering if I should wear a mask like you often see in some Countries!  Do you now what?  I am just going to take a chance on go without.  If I am not back on here soon I have probably been overcome by a VW on it's way past me!    (Other manufacturers are available.)

 

This is the problem with statistics; on the other hand historical (London during the 50s and 60s), AND contemporary data (Beijing over the last few years), show spikes in breathing difficulty admissions to hospitals, and deaths in the very young/very old/people with lung issues when NOx levels are very high, compared to when the pollution levels are lower (ie - blown away and dispersed by the wind)

 

The top two NOx producers are diesel engines and coal burning; so look to China, and Beijing in particular, to see how bad it can get; the city is not only filled with very dirty diesel engined lorries, but is surrounded by power stations burning low grade (highly sulphurous) coal. The newspapers may come up with OTT names for it, but it is still so bad that the Chinese government had to shut down 90% of the cities heavy industry to clear the air enough for the Olympics, and regularly tries to block the US Embassy website - which publishes a pollution index for the city every day.

 

Individually, diesel cars arent big polluters compared with diesel lorries and bus's, but add up the total and it does make a big difference. While living in China, in a modern city filled with the latest model western cars, and LPG converted bus's, you could see the pollution cloud come down during the morning and evening rush hours - visibility would drop from 10 miles to 1/2 a mile.

 

The ICCT supplied the info to the EPA.  

 

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_NOx-control-tech_09032015.pdf 

 

 

If you read that PDF on the testing for the future "real road test" Don't think your Dacia with a Renault engine is fine.......................

 

infact it could be one of the worst....................

 

QUOTE:"Three single vehicles from Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai had very high NOX emissions over the WLTC (CFs of 14.6, 8.8, and 6.9, respectively).

Interestingly, these vehicles were just on the edge of compliance under NEDC

testing (CFs of 0.9, 1.0, and 0.9). These vehicles would very likely be unfit to pass

the RDE test, and would thus be left out of the EU market (unless they had their

NOX control systems recalibrated) if RDE type-approval criteria applied today.

NOX" END QUOTE

 

Like I have said before very near the beginning, make a test for a product to comply to for sale & the manufactures will make it pass that test. Don't word/structure the test properly & the manufactures will find the weak spots/loopholes. Same for MPG tests, F1 rules etc.......................simples...................  

 

Couple of factors no one has mentioned which affect real world pollution from a cars engine are the following:-

1. Quality of fuel used, stuff like Shell Nitro petrol & diesel or equivalent will combust & produce less pollution than standard cheap basic versions.
2. Maintenance of the engine, so well maintained with good spark/glow plugs, good oil, in good running order this engine will produce less pollutants than a badly maintained one.

 

My old 2000 Fabia 1.4lt 16V 100bhp AUB engine, required to run on 98ron. I ran it only on the Shell, Vpower/Optimax/Nitro. It had uprated NGK iridium spark plugs, Mobil1 oil & was well maintained.

MOT test results since 2004 to 2014:-

Fast idle test 

CO level:=0.00, 0.00, 0.03, 0.17, 0.08, 0.00, 0.02, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 %  (pass range = 0.00 - 0.20 max)

HC level:=13, 13, 12, 22, 11, 4, 19, 8, 9, 2, 6 ppm  (pass range = 0 - 200 max)

Lambda:=1.004,  1.01, 1.01, 1.01, 1.00, 1.00, 1.00, 1.00, 1.01, 1.00, 1.00 (pass range = 0.97 - 1.03 max)

 

Natural idle test

CO level:=0.01, 0.00, 0.01, 0.06, 0.10, 0.00, -0.01, -0.01, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 % (pass range = 0.00 - 0.30 max)

 

I'd say that's a pretty good set of results for a car with a 170g/km CO2 emissions rating!... :clap: ..........also bear in mind that my MOT test dates were always in the depths of winter up here!!!

 

I'd also say that it's probably one of the best performing set of results for that engine as many people who had those cars from new did not run them on the proper fuels & only did extended servicing, resulting in many "throwing" the piston rings & having other engine problems......

 

Like I say tests are tests, everyone is at it, just the media & unknown others are wanting to have a go at VAG. I think there is a good chance that VAG might be the least polluting in new "real" tests than most of the other car manufacturers!...............  

The solution being proposed here is real time telematics being sent back to a central location. If that were to be implemented, I'd expect monitoring to spread to other areas of the car's behaviour pretty quickly. Its not really something I'd like to see. This could well be the push various states are looking for and idiots would embrace it with open arms.

 

It won't be targeting the user at first. What, are you against the environment? Do you want evil VW/BMW/Hyundai getting away with selling you a car that doesn't do what you paid it to do? ETC.

 

Sorry, but pigs might fly!!

How are you going to set up a system that allows real-time sending of info from the WHOLE country cheaply?

I've just spent a day at The Emergency Services Show and even in that field there is a known and recognised problem of complete pan-UK communications being almost impossible to achieve.

Individually, diesel cars arent big polluters compared with diesel lorries and bus's, but add up the total and it does make a big difference. While living in China, in a modern city filled with the latest model western cars, and LPG converted bus's, you could see the pollution cloud come down during the morning and evening rush hours - visibility would drop from 10 miles to 1/2 a mile.

 

 

I was in Beijing in 2002 and we had a couple of days of very bad smog to the point you really couldn't see very far at all. It's amazing how fast it just appeared.

I should imagine it's a lot worse now as the population of the city has grown massively since then.

It won't be targeting the user at first. What, are you against the environment? Do you want evil VW/BMW/Hyundai getting away with selling you a car that doesn't do what you paid it to do? ETC.

That's the interesting point. I wonder if all these people talking of compensation and legal action genuinely bought a diesel because they looked at it and thought, wow look at the low emissions. If they did then yes the car is not doing what you paid it to do.

But I would hazard a guess that most people looked at the car, looked at the VED level and a high quoted mpg and thought they will go for that. Bet they never even looked at the Nox coming out of it.

Sorry, but pigs might fly!!

How are you going to set up a system that allows real-time sending of info from the WHOLE country cheaply?

I've just spent a day at The Emergency Services Show and even in that field there is a known and recognised problem of complete pan-UK communications being almost impossible to achieve.

Well its a good job I work in the telematics industry, so I can answer that Fitted at time of manufacture for new vehicles. My employer is already in talks with a number of manufacturers, though obviously not about emissions, I'm just speculating on mission creep and how this might be made acceptable to end users, which is a major issue. Speculation, Graham. I'm just putting out various scenarios as they pop into my head, based on what I do know.

 

Look how StarLink is being rolled out by many brands now. What is that? Essentially a telematics device with a GPRS connection with access to the CANBUS. Somehow, that manages to work.

 

Edit: I was thinking of OnStar in America. StarLink is another similar tech but essentially the same.

There are so many people with so many choices and not a little confusion when it comes to polluting emmissions eg lower total fuel consumption plus less CO2 but until now, from the general public's position, not much understanding of the NOx downside.